UChi vs NYU for clerkship/biglaw? Forum

[somethrowaway]

Assume equal costs other than slight COL differences between NYC and Chicago. Goals are a district/circuit court clerkship (preferably in/near an urban area), followed by generic biglaw (in no order preferences of NYC, Bay Area, LA, and London - no ties to any), and maybe a gig as an in-house counsel down the road. Might look into pursuing a JD/MBA dual degree as well, and I slightly prefer NYC to Chicago citywise.

To preface I have only been accepted to NYU so far, but for other reasons I kind of have to make a decision now. Conflicted by UChi's somewhat significant clerkship advantage and seeming lead in prestige, but NYU's likely superior NYC biglaw placement. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated!

[cavalier1138]

Two questions:

1. How strict is the timeline for your decision? You're asking people to assume equivalent costs, but you almost certainly won't be facing that scenario once you have all your decisions and scholarship offers in hand. I'm extremely curious about what circumstances are forcing you to make your choice months before you have all the relevant information.

2. Why do you want a clerkship? The rest of your post (NYC biglaw to in-house counsel) indicates that you're interested in corporate practice, but district/circuit court clerkships are only valuable for litigators.

[Dcc617]

Not a real difference. Pick where's cheaper.

[showusyourtorts]

U Chicago will have far better clerkship placement, and you will have absolutely no issue getting a biglaw job from Chicago. It also has a much more concentrated student community than NYU (in the sense that most 1L's at Chicago live and socialize in a very concentrated area in Hyde Park).

[crazywafflez]

Truthfully, no substantial difference between these schools. You've got a slightly better chance at clerking from Chi. I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor- go to whichever will be cheaper. Both would get you generic biglaw in basically every big market. Both are sterling schools with great outcomes. If you get the chance, maybe I'd slightly lean towards Chi. But truthfully, the difference is negligible at best and I'd only pick Chi if all things/costs were equal.

[Wild Card]

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

[somethrowaway]

Truthfully, no substantial difference between these schools. You've got a slightly better chance at clerking from Chi. I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor- go to whichever will be cheaper. Both would get you generic biglaw in basically every big market. Both are sterling schools with great outcomes. If you get the chance, maybe I'd slightly lean towards Chi. But truthfully, the difference is negligible at best and I'd only pick Chi if all things/costs were equal.

This is pretty much exactly what I was expecting the replies to be. And yet I'm a little surprised by the poll results so far. I thought my mild preference for studying/working in NYC would have more of an impact. I am curious if anyone that voted UChi can speak more to why they voted that way? Is it all because of my desire to clerk? Its only real advantages I can see as they relate to my goals are the superior clerkship numbers and the slightly superior overall prestige. I would say my desire to clerk is less of a priority than working biglaw in a desirable city and setting myself up well for a future in-house role. Is UChi's lead in clerking really that tangible?

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

Just curious, but can you explain why student preferences for region of practice would make one school's biglaw and clerkship numbers superior to the other? Are you saying the Midwest is a less competitive market for both of those jobs?

[showusyourtorts]

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

I just wanted to push back on this (or at least add a bit of color).

If you're a law student at U Chicago, it is much easier to get a job in New York than it is to get a job in Chicago (the reason being that there are tons of very large, well-ranked NYC firms that want T6 grads and a relatively small amount of U Chicago folks that are interested in working in NYC). Of course, that does *not* speak to whether getting a job in Chicago would be easier coming from U Chicago versus NYU. I imagine that it must be, though that's basically conjecture. That also does not speak to whether getting a job in New York would be easier coming from U Chicago versus NYU. I imagine that it would be, just given the relatively small percentage of a relatively small pool of people at a T6 that want to do NYC biglaw, but I can't imagine that NYU doesn't also place well in NYC.

Regarding the clerkships -- I'm relying mostly on anecdata, but I can't imagine that U Chicago folks are more likely to clerk in the Midwest than people in the T6 more generally are? Maybe that's inaccurate, though.

[Dcc617]

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

I assume this is a joke? Nobody listen to this advice, this advice is terrible.

[nixy]

General rule is that if Wild Card is talking about NYU, take it with a HUGE grain of salt. (NYU and Chicago are both national schools.)

[Wild Card]

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

Just curious, but can you explain why student preferences for region of practice would make one school's biglaw and clerkship numbers superior to the other? Are you saying the Midwest is a less competitive market for both of those jobs?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Generally, people who chose NYU don't want to work in the Midwest; I think they are true believers in the idea of NYC and are dead set on working in NYC in the long run. Also, the Midwest takes care of its own and is biased against those without ties. So not only do NYU grads tend not to want to work in Chicago, say, they also have a hard time getting a job there even if they wanted to.

If you went to NYU, a N.D. Ill. judge will ask you, "Why Chicago"; shockingly, biglaw firms there will as well. You will be expected to say, "I have family here, I grew up here."

For instance, I'm looking at the summer associate class list for the NYU J.D. Class of 2020, and exactly one (1) student summered in Chicago. I take that to mean that exactly one NYU '20 grad out of ~550 has ended up in Chicago. That's certainly not true, but whether it's one or five or ten, it's still a non-number. I suspect it's similar at Columbia, but I don't know.

Perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way, and it may be the case that every single law school, including Y/H/S is a regional law school, in the sense that if you're applying for a job in a place that's not NYC, you'll have to be able to say that you're from that place. Whereas if you went to Y/H/S, prospective employers might not care as much.

I won't speculate further and will just re-emphasize that only one NYU '20 grad summered in Chicago.

[showusyourtorts]

I think it should come down to where you want to practice. I think both are regional schools, and that Chicago does better with respect to both biglaw and clerkships because it's just Midwesterners wanting to stay in the Midwest - whereas NYU grads are more picky about staying in the Mid-Atlantic (?).

Just curious, but can you explain why student preferences for region of practice would make one school's biglaw and clerkship numbers superior to the other? Are you saying the Midwest is a less competitive market for both of those jobs?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Generally, people who chose NYU don't want to work in the Midwest; I think they are true believers in the idea of NYC and are dead set on working in NYC in the long run. Also, the Midwest takes care of its own and is biased against those without ties. So not only do NYU grads tend not to want to work in Chicago, say, they also have a hard time getting a job there even if they wanted to.

If you went to NYU, a N.D. Ill. judge will ask you, "Why Chicago"; shockingly, biglaw firms there will as well. You will be expected to say, "I have family here, I grew up here."

For instance, I'm looking at the summer associate class list for the NYU J.D. Class of 2020, and exactly one (1) student summered in Chicago. I take that to mean that exactly one NYU '20 grad out of ~550 has ended up in Chicago. That's certainly not true, but whether it's one or five or ten, it's still a non-number. I suspect it's similar at Columbia, but I don't know.

Perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way, and it may be the case that every single law school, including Y/H/S is a regional law school, in the sense that if you're applying for a job in a place that's not NYC, you'll have to be able to say that you're from that place. Whereas if you went to Y/H/S, prospective employers might not care as much.

I won't speculate further and will just re-emphasize that only one NYU '20 grad summered in Chicago.

Surprisingly, I'm mostly +1'ing the above. Chicago firms are absolutely looking for some kind of connection to the city, even if you are coming from a T6 school. It's obviously possible to get an offer in Chicago if you don't have a tie to the city -- presumably that would basically happen because you attended a T6 school -- but I do think it's a material factor that cuts against you. In that sense, it's probably leaps and bounds easier to get a job in Chicago as a U Chicago student than as an NYU student. I suppose that NYU/UChicago are "regional" schools in that sense.

BUT: New York City is the opposite. Nobody in NYC is looking for you to have a connection to the city. You don't need a reason to go to NYC. And it is leaps and bounds easier, as a U Chicago student, to get a job in NYC than it is to get a job in Chicago. That's where the "regional" line fits less well.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Yeah, I don't think it's such an unreasonable point to make about UChicago. Nobody bats an eye if the same point is made about Harvard/Boston/1st Cir., Stanford/SF/9th or Penn/Philadelphia/3rd. In a ties-sensitive market, going to the local T14 is a good way to help build ties.

[slaumer]

FWIW: I have a friend at UChicago who said they currently have 7 alumni serving as clerks at the Supreme Court. That is pretty darn significant given there are only like 36 spots.

[Ohiobumpkin]

I want to know what Wild Card defines as a "regional" school. If you define the Midwest as one region (which for labor market purposes is somewhat absurd), then sure, UChicago places a disproportionate number of their grads in the Midwest. I understand "regional" to mean a state or part of a state's legal market, whereas national schools place in multiple regions. For example, you attend University Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky University if you want to work in SW Ohio, but you would want to attend Case Western if you wanted to work in NE/northern Ohio. That is a regional school. UChicago grad can go to NYC, WI, MI, OH, IN, and probably even LA/SF. If somebody at UChicago wants to work outside of the Midwest, there really is nothing stopping them. Someone who goes to University of Illinois will have a hard time getting a job outside of Illinois.

[The Lsat Airbender]

FWIW: I have a friend at UChicago who said they currently have 7 alumni serving as clerks at the Supreme Court. That is pretty darn significant given there are only like 36 spots.

Chicago is def doing well lately, but this is kinda cherry-picking given that ACB brought her old clerks along with her. She's about to start getting a bunch of shiny applications from top HY students who last year wouldn't have known she existed.

[uchioci]

FWIW: I have a friend at UChicago who said they currently have 7 alumni serving as clerks at the Supreme Court. That is pretty darn significant given there are only like 36 spots.

Chicago is def doing well lately, but this is kinda cherry-picking given that ACB brought her old clerks along with her. She's about to start getting a bunch of shiny applications from top HY students who last year wouldn't have known she existed.

She brought one of her old clerks with her and that person was a NU grad. The two UChicago grads clerking for her were previously SCOTUS clerks and had never worked for her.

[Elston Gunn]

FWIW: I have a friend at UChicago who said they currently have 7 alumni serving as clerks at the Supreme Court. That is pretty darn significant given there are only like 36 spots.

Chicago is def doing well lately, but this is kinda cherry-picking given that ACB brought her old clerks along with her. She's about to start getting a bunch of shiny applications from top HY students who last year wouldn't have known she existed.

I’m pretty sure top HYS students have known who Amy Coney Barrett is for quite a while...

[plurilingue]

Assume equal costs other than slight COL differences between NYC and Chicago. Goals are a district/circuit court clerkship (preferably in/near an urban area), followed by generic biglaw (in no order preferences of NYC, Bay Area, LA, and London - no ties to any), and maybe a gig as an in-house counsel down the road. Might look into pursuing a JD/MBA dual degree as well, and I slightly prefer NYC to Chicago citywise.

To preface I have only been accepted to NYU so far, but for other reasons I kind of have to make a decision now. Conflicted by UChi's somewhat significant clerkship advantage and seeming lead in prestige, but NYU's likely superior NYC biglaw placement. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated!

Don’t look at the nine-month graduation data regarding clerks. Twenty percent of each class of NYU (and Columbia) graduates ultimately clerks, and Wild Card is right that they disproportionately do in New York and other selective jurisdictions. It’s way, way easier to get a flyover clerkships coming from UChi, and more importantly, I don’t think many NYU or CLS graduates even want those clerkships.

Also note that most judges in New York want to see one to two years of experience in practice before clerking. The matters on the dockets in S.D.N.Y. often involve high-profile or multi-billion dollar litigation with complex issues. In other words, those judges don’t hire out of law school.

So in sum, there is a clerkship placement gap between NYU and UChi. It’s not as dramatic as you would think. UChi will outperform NYU with the most selective appellate/D.C. Cir. judges. But this is more due to the pipeline of conservative students being more robust from UChi than from NYU.

[somethrowaway]

Don’t look at the nine-month graduation data regarding clerks. Twenty percent of each class of NYU (and Columbia) graduates ultimately clerks, and Wild Card is right that they disproportionately do in New York and other selective jurisdictions. It’s way, way easier to get a flyover clerkships coming from UChi, and more importantly, I don’t think many NYU or CLS graduates even want those clerkships.

Also note that most judges in New York want to see one to two years of experience in practice before clerking. The matters on the dockets in S.D.N.Y. often involve high-profile or multi-billion dollar litigation with complex issues. In other words, those judges don’t hire out of law school.

So in sum, there is a clerkship placement gap between NYU and UChi. It’s not as dramatic as you would think. UChi will outperform NYU with the most selective appellate/D.C. Cir. judges. But this is more due to the pipeline of conservative students being more robust from UChi than from NYU.

In that case, accounting for self-selection, which school do you think has the placement advantage for 2nd Cir/SDNY/EDNY clerkships then?

[wldecisions]

1. The difference in CoL between NYC and Chicago is not "slight." It is at least 20-30% cheaper to live in Chicago.

2. The difference in NY BigLaw prospects are negligible and will likely depend more on your grade at either school than which school you go to. The difference in SF/LA BigLaw prospects are also negligible (& noticeably lower than NY BigLaw prospects). Not sure about London, though I suspect NYU may have a slightly better hand. Ignoring Chicago given your lack of interest.

3. I'm going to argue that the difference in FedClerk prospects are also negligible. If you press me, sure, UChi probably has a slight advantage, but with self-selection (UChi and NYU attract pretty different people, generally speaking), NYU's network within NY, and relatively more New Yorkers not wanting to leave NY, there won't be a huge difference.

4. Echoing previous commenter's question re: why you want a clerkship. If I were in your shoes, this may actually be the deciding question for me besides $.

[plurilingue]

Don’t look at the nine-month graduation data regarding clerks. Twenty percent of each class of NYU (and Columbia) graduates ultimately clerks, and Wild Card is right that they disproportionately do in New York and other selective jurisdictions. It’s way, way easier to get a flyover clerkships coming from UChi, and more importantly, I don’t think many NYU or CLS graduates even want those clerkships.

Also note that most judges in New York want to see one to two years of experience in practice before clerking. The matters on the dockets in S.D.N.Y. often involve high-profile or multi-billion dollar litigation with complex issues. In other words, those judges don’t hire out of law school.

So in sum, there is a clerkship placement gap between NYU and UChi. It’s not as dramatic as you would think. UChi will outperform NYU with the most selective appellate/D.C. Cir. judges. But this is more due to the pipeline of conservative students being more robust from UChi than from NYU.

In that case, accounting for self-selection, which school do you think has the placement advantage for 2nd Cir/SDNY/EDNY clerkships then?

I think NYU has deeper connections than UChi to judges in New York, even with self-selection playing a part. But the correct answer to your question is CLS.

That said, for all three schools, you should present yourself as a FedSoc type to have the best shot. There aren’t nearly as many conservative students as there are judges. Take advantage of that for clerkship applications if you can stomach it. (I could not.)

[lavarman84]

If you're conservative, go to UChicago. If you're not, there's not much difference. But the poster who raised questions about your goals is right. Clerking is for litigators. Your subsequent goals sound more in line with people practicing corporate law. But you can always figure that out later.

What I wanted to do changed multiple times from when I started law school to when I left my clerkship. Ultimately, I got to practice the sort of law that I wanted to practice after getting to experience a lot of different areas of the law as a SA and a clerk, and I'm very happy with what I do.

[nonamelawstudent]

Chicago.
You mentioned wanting to do an MBA. I think Chicago has some new program where law students can get a dual degree for no extra money or time, just some crossover classes and an internship. It would be worth asking admissions to clarify what exactly the Booth crossover looks like.

It's cheaper.

Clerkships, Chicago does better.

The person above who said they are both regional schools is just...wrong.You will have zero problems getting into a major big law market from either school. New York is far and away the easiest big law legal market to crack, and you can get a job there from either school no questions. With the markets you have in mind, NYC/Bay Area/London, I would not even weigh which school places better in my decision. Any stats you see about which school places more in which of those markets is self-selection on students, not firms.