NU vs WUSTL vs NDLS Forum

[Throwawayuser12]

Hi, need some advice here

I'm currently choosing between these 3 schools. Goal's big law in midwest, preferably Chicago, although I'm open to other opportunities.

Received $60k at NU, $96k at WUSTL & $105k at NDLS

Regardless of cost of living, which would you advise to choose? I already R&R, was denied at all of these before.

I've been told to choose NU no matter what by some people, but does it really make a difference? Is OCI that different between NU and the others?

[cavalier1138]

I'd do Northwestern, with the caveat that you shouldn't expect Chicago biglaw without getting high grades. The difference in outcomes between Northwestern and WashU is big, and the difference between Northwestern and Notre Dame is even bigger. If your goal is biglaw, Northwestern is easily worth an extra $30-40k.

[Sackboy]

Given that you've already R&R, NU is the clear choice here. It's placement is easily worth the difference in COA at both WUSTL and NDLS. At NU, you have to screw the pooch pretty badly to not end up with biglaw, if that is your goal. At WUSTL and NDLS, landing at median could very well dash your hopes. At the same GPA, you're also going to be competitive for much "better" (i.e. higher vault ranking) firms than at WUSTL and NDLS. For example, I pulled up Cravath and SullCrom, and NU had about 14-15 or so attorneys at each, WUSTL had about 3-4, and Notre Dame had 0.

[Throwawayuser12]

Thank you for your responses, appreciate the feedback. Really hoped I could get more scholarship, but as a splitter who doesn't qualify for need aid, got offers around what would be expected based on lawschoolnumbers.

Could anyone share if my understanding of the bidding system at OCI is correct? At NU, students get to bid for firms of their choice, which means that everyone pretty much has a chance to interview. But at WUSTL and NDLS, firms can choose who interviews and students can't bid if they don't meet the firm's cutoffs. Is this right?

Thank you again for your insight, a lot of information on this site's been helpful during the whole process of R&R

[Sackboy]

Could anyone share if my understanding of the bidding system at OCI is correct? At NU, students get to bid for firms of their choice, which means that everyone pretty much has a chance to interview. But at WUSTL and NDLS, firms can choose who interviews and students can't bid if they don't meet the firm's cutoffs. Is this right?

I cannot speak to WUSTL or NDLS.

At NU, you can bid on 40 firms. Your bids then go into a lottery system. Each firm signs up for a set number of interview slots (usually 20-80). If your #1 firm bid has 10 people who put them at #1, 9 who put them at #2, and 4 who put them at #3 but only has 20 slots, everyone who put them as #1 gets them along with everyone who put them as #2 but only 1/4 who put them at #3 will get an interview (randomly selected via the system). The bidding system goes down the entire 40 bid list for everyone, and you're informed what firms you bid high enough to get. Most people do not fill out the entire 40 firm list. Most probably do 20-30 firms. Most people get 13-15 interviews. If you do the entire list, bid wisely, and are geographically flexible, you can get around 25 guaranteed interviews. As people get callbacks/drop interviews, more slots open up, and you can grab them day of. I know someone who interviewed with 32 firms.

[AllAboutTheBasis]

NU is a great school and I would love to answer any questions you have any.

[Throwawayuser12]

Sorry for taking so long to answer.

Sackboy, thanks for the detailed explanation, this helped better to understand how the bidding system works.Will take into consideration the geographic flexibility. I was able to speak to some current students, everyone pretty much advised to bid on NY firms besides other Midwest states', too.

Cavalier, thanks for your responses as well. From what I gathered after speaking to WUSTL and NDLS students, the difference's real, was surprised by how they only have a fraction of the amount of firms that NU receives at OCI.

NU is a great school and I would love to answer any questions you have any.

AllAboutTheBasis, could I message you? I have some additional questions, and it would be great if you could help out.

Thank you all!

[AllAboutTheBasis]

Sorry for taking so long to answer.

Sackboy, thanks for the detailed explanation, this helped better to understand how the bidding system works.Will take into consideration the geographic flexibility. I was able to speak to some current students, everyone pretty much advised to bid on NY firms besides other Midwest states', too.

Cavalier, thanks for your responses as well. From what I gathered after speaking to WUSTL and NDLS students, the difference's real, was surprised by how they only have a fraction of the amount of firms that NU receives at OCI.

NU is a great school and I would love to answer any questions you have any.

AllAboutTheBasis, could I message you? I have some additional questions, and it would be great if you could help out.

Thank you all!

Of course!

[Throwawayuser12]

Sorry for taking so long to answer.

Sackboy, thanks for the detailed explanation, this helped better to understand how the bidding system works.Will take into consideration the geographic flexibility. I was able to speak to some current students, everyone pretty much advised to bid on NY firms besides other Midwest states', too.

Cavalier, thanks for your responses as well. From what I gathered after speaking to WUSTL and NDLS students, the difference's real, was surprised by how they only have a fraction of the amount of firms that NU receives at OCI.

NU is a great school and I would love to answer any questions you have any.

AllAboutTheBasis, could I message you? I have some additional questions, and it would be great if you could help out.

Thank you all!

Of course!

I tried to message and it seems like I'm not able because my account's fairly new. Would you be able to message and share about your experience so far? Any advice on classes, OCI, journals, things you wish you knew. Also, any advice on places to live near campus (or places to avoid) would be greatly appreciated. If you can share about taking classes at Kellogg (I saw it's an option to take 5 core classes) that would be nice, I spoke to a current student about it, but they were enrolled for next semester and couldn't clarify if they mix MBA students with law students for it.

Thank you!

[beinghuman]

I definitely agree with everyone on here that NU is the right choice. However, to get Chicago Biglaw, one would need fairly high grades; and I have a general feeling, but I could be wrong, that the next couple OCI seasons are going to be rough.

[Sackboy]

I definitely agree with everyone on here that NU is the right choice. However, to get Chicago Biglaw, one would need fairly high grades; and I have a general feeling, but I could be wrong, that the next couple OCI seasons are going to be rough.

NU is going to give OP better chances in Milwaukee, Minneapolis, and other Midwestern cities than the other two schools. I remember going through OCI at NU, and you could land "biglaw" callbacks in all the regional Midwest markets with pretty low grades. Worst case scenario (beyond unemployment), OP has to spend a summer in NY and transfers offices for after graduation/networks during 3L to get back. That's not particularly uncommon.

By the time OP enters OCI (16 months from now), the economy could be in the dumps, but it could just as well be just where it left off. It's hard to tell. Whatever hit OP takes for Chicago biglaw at NU, that hit will be substantially worse at NDLS or WUSTL.

[beinghuman]

You are not wrong but it is not necessarily the case that NU gives better chances in smaller markets. It is typically NU students with strong ties to regional markets who have better chances. I know NU students with good grades who, to their surprise, did not get callbacks in regional markets like Minneapolis, Kansas City, and Indianapolis, because employers did not think they envisioned staying there long-term. So if OP has ties to a regional market and is able to convince the employer that their firm is where they see themselves working then their NU degree would indeed position them better. Also, I think that Midlaw will be affected by the pandemic and they already take a small number of students in normal times.

But again, as I said, NU is the better choice in absolute terms because mainly of its biglaw placement. However, I think that most big law firms will likely give offers to their 2020 summer associates, and I can see that if things don't improve--which we don't know, these firms will hire fewer students next year, and potentially for a couple more years. My only concern is that with this risk in mind, NU is very expensive with only 60k scholarship over three years, particularly since they keep increasing tuition (around 225k cost of attendance).

But if OP knows they want to go to law school next year, NU is the right choice but with keeping in mind that OP would need to get good grades to have good chances in light of the current situation.

I definitely agree with everyone on here that NU is the right choice. However, to get Chicago Biglaw, one would need fairly high grades; and I have a general feeling, but I could be wrong, that the next couple OCI seasons are going to be rough.

NU is going to give OP better chances in Milwaukee, Minneapolis, and other Midwestern cities than the other two schools. I remember going through OCI at NU, and you could land "biglaw" callbacks in all the regional Midwest markets with pretty low grades. Worst case scenario (beyond unemployment), OP has to spend a summer in NY and transfers offices for after graduation/networks during 3L to get back. That's not particularly uncommon.

By the time OP enters OCI (16 months from now), the economy could be in the dumps, but it could just as well be just where it left off. It's hard to tell. Whatever hit OP takes for Chicago biglaw at NU, that hit will be substantially worse at NDLS or WUSTL.

[Sackboy]

You are not wrong but it is not necessarily the case that NU gives better chances in smaller markets. It is typically NU students with strong ties to regional markets who have better chances. I know NU students with good grades who, to their surprise, did not get callbacks in regional markets like Minneapolis, Kansas City, and Indianapolis, because employers did not think they envisioned staying there long-term. So if OP has ties to a regional market and is able to convince the employer that their firm is where they see themselves working then their NU degree would indeed position them better. Also, I think that Midlaw will be affected by the pandemic and they already take a small number of students in normal times.

But again, as I said, NU is the better choice in absolute terms because mainly of its biglaw placement. However, I think that most big law firms will likely give offers to their 2020 summer associates, and I can see that if things don't improve--which we don't know, these firms will hire fewer students next year, and potentially for a couple more years. My only concern is that with this risk in mind, NU is very expensive with only 60k scholarship over three years, particularly since they keep increasing tuition (around 225k cost of attendance).

But if OP knows they want to go to law school next year, NU is the right choice but with keeping in mind that OP would need to get good grades to have good chances in light of the current situation.

+1. This seems like a fair analysis to me.

[Throwawayuser12]

Thank you all for your input, appreciate it. That's a risk I keep in mind. I was able to get a modest increase in scholarship, and have savings for school living expenses, don't have undergrad debt with me either. While I'm not Chicago or bust, I'd prefer to be there, but above all have better job security, and I've liked how they seem to have a larger OCI at NU. I was also surprised at how they have better funding for summer PI work there than at the other two. If I need to go to back to NY I wouldn't mind it, but I prefer to stay in the Midwest, I do have ties to some states across it. I've moved around a lot so I wouldn't oppose to doing it again for the sake of a good opportunity. I spoke to some students at WUSTL and NDLS and got worried about ending in a bad spot, don't have ties to St Louis and that kind of concerned me too.

When you say top grades for Chicago big law, where would you say the cut off is? Top 15?30?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Top third puts you in a pretty solid spot for Chicago biglaw out of Northwestern, and it's still possible from median, just not something you can count on. 75% of the class gets biglaw or a federal clerkship, and 42% of the class stays in IL after graduation; it's a pretty robust pipeline.

The problem is that Chicago is a much smaller legal market than NYC and a lot of law schools are trying to cram their alumni into it because it's the only Midwestern city that pays Cravath scale: Chicago/NU/Michigan, WUStL/ND, UIUC as well as Iowa/Wisconsin/Indiana/Ohio State/Minnesota, and then you've got lower-ranked local schools like DePaul, John Marshall/UIC, Chicago-Kent, Valparaiso, Loyola. Beinghuman is right to point out that the wrong kind of recession could make things even more competitive—Chicago has a big, diverse economy but it's relatively dependent on a handful of keystone companies/sectors compared to the big coastal metros (Houston has the same problem).