Charlotte/Raleigh/NC for Duke/UNC Grads Forum

[HangingAround]

Removed

[HangingAround]

Also feel free to PM me if you don't want to out yourself with such specific answers!

Thanks!

[lymenheimer]

0L but I think I can help here a bit, graduates et al can correct me where I stray. The reason Duke students go to NY is because many of them are aiming for Biglaw and the NC Biglaw market is tiny comparatively. UNC as a strong regional is going to obviously have a wider alumni network in the state, making UNC a good choice (at low cost) if you don't want biglaw and if you want to stay in NC. I have lawyers in the family who confirm that UNC is the place to go to stay in NC (as long as biglaw isn't the goal). Also, (speculating here) UNC will have a lot more NC kids in the first place, so they will likely plan on staying anyways. But, in other threads it is mentioned that Duke places well in NC, but that self-selection out is the reason many people don't stay. With the T14 (Duke/UVA), you have better chance of hitting your goal firm and you're going to have wider reach and a more mobile degree, but if you want to stay in a certain location, a strong regional at a low cost is not a bad option.

[HangingAround]

0L but I think I can help here a bit, graduates et al can correct me where I stray. The reason Duke students go to NY is because many of them are aiming for Biglaw and the NC Biglaw market is tiny comparatively. UNC as a strong regional is going to obviously have a wider alumni network in the state, making UNC a good choice (at low cost) if you don't want biglaw and if you want to stay in NC. I have lawyers in the family who confirm that UNC is the place to go to stay in NC (as long as biglaw isn't the goal). Also, (speculating here) UNC will have a lot more NC kids in the first place, so they will likely plan on staying anyways. But, in other threads it is mentioned that Duke places well in NC, but that self-selection out is the reason many people don't stay. With the T14 (Duke/UVA), you have better chance of hitting your goal firm and you're going to have wider reach and a more mobile degree, but if you want to stay in a certain location, a strong regional at a low cost is not a bad option.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head in this description. In this respect, a primary concern is that just about everyone at UNC would be gunning for those same strong regionals and only the top of the class would potentially have a shot at them, whereas if Duke is a only the small number of self selection staying in NC than Duke could have a significant more leeway for the unpredictable nature of LS performance. As in median at Duke or even slightly lower seems easier than placing in the very top of UNCs class if they're comparable to the strong NC firms.

Anyways, I don't think there's a clear this or that answer but it is interesting to hear various perspectives on it. Love to get more feedback from some UVA/Duke students who had friends with strong ties to NC/SE shoot for NC/SE in strong regional firms rather than biglaw and how successful that was from various backgrounds (ie outside of the top of the class).

[intlsplitr]

Duke 3L here. NC 'biglaw' was nearly impossible for my class, at least anecdotally. I know of at least 8 people who wanted to stay in NC, all with ties. Two summered in NC (and I think one more got an offer but turned it down). The rest ended up going to DC or NY because they couldnt get an offer out of any NC market. Median at Duke in no way makes you a shoe-in for NC 'biglaw;' you probably wouldnt even get looked at.

Dont underestimate the alumni-network power of UNC and Wake. The summer programs in NC are very small and it seems the hiring partners (all UNC/Wake grads) hire to their own kind. I would not recommend going to Duke (and definitely not UVA) if your only goal is NC 'biglaw.' That said, you have to have fantastic grades at UNC or Wake to be considered.

If you really want to be in NC 'biglaw' TCR is to lateral from NYC/DC biglaw.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Duke 3L here. NC 'biglaw' was nearly impossible for my class, at least anecdotally.

People have a serious tendency to underestimate the difficulty of landing offers from NC firms like Robinson Bradshaw, Smith Anderson, Brooks Pierce, etc. From what I've seen, it's much easier to get a job in NYC (and sometimes even DC) than with one of these firms. There is a very small number of seats, and the firms can be about as picky as they want to be in terms of not only grades & pedigree but also the depth of your ties to the state or even the specific city. RBH is probably the pickiest, and if you want to an idea of how picky they can be, take a look at attorney bios on their site. A number of their UVA & Duke law folks were magna, coif, and/or on LR board.

If you really want to be in NC 'biglaw' TCR is to lateral from NYC/DC biglaw.

I don't know that this is really TCR. It may give you a second bite at the apple if NC doesn't work out the first time, but probably only if you already have ties to the area. And I've heard of at least a couple people with sterling credentials and ties who have had trouble lateraling back to NC.

[SplitMyPants]

If you really want biglaw and you really want NC, consider going Duke-->NYC-->hope to lateral to Charlotte after a couple years. I can't really speak to the lateral situation later in your career, but secondaries like Atlanta or Charlotte are tough to land straight out of OCI from anywhere, even Duke or UVA.

[monsterman]

UVA 2L here with zero ties to NC. FWIW, I bid on a couple NC firms and got callbacks from both of them. I ended up canceling them but for me at least the ties didn't matter for the cb stage. I also know a guy in my class going to NC without any ties. So I do think it's possible, but as other posters have said it's probably pretty difficult to do

[BlackAndOrange84]

UVA 2L here with zero ties to NC. FWIW, I bid on a couple NC firms and got callbacks from both of them. I ended up canceling them but for me at least the ties didn't matter for the cb stage. I also know a guy in my class going to NC without any ties. So I do think it's possible, but as other posters have said it's probably pretty difficult to do

I'm curious as to stats given the OP's question about how a median Duke/UVA student would fare.

[SplitMyPants]

Not great. Median from these schools in a secondary with ties and esp with weak ties will come off as mere a backup plan. Why should they take that person over top 5% at UNC/Wake? Certainly don't go into it thinking the Southeast has to be your end-all-be-all. Be open to NYC.

[HangingAround]

I appreciate all of the responses. Just to clarify this is for regional firms and even firm that are only statewide, not the national offices of biglaw firms (as much as there is a distinction in NC). I have no interest in the mainstream biglaw as far as NYC goes, which I realize is an important back up plan if NC did not work out but it what it is. These firms are probably largely unknown outside of NC and the immediate region, though a few have been mentioned in the thread and from what I understand do great work and compete with NC branches of national firms.

Interested to hear if those who had deep ties and no success were native NC or had just lived here for a time before law school, as I think that might be significant to firms. I have heard very different things from people at the same schools from within this thread and PM related to this thread so this is an interesting divergence of opinions.

[star fox]

Just go to Duke and split your bidlist between NY and Charlotte or whatever other cities exist in NC.

[HangingAround]

Just go to Duke and split your bidlist between NY and Charlotte or whatever other cities exist in NC.

Would a summer in NY (assuming offer) open up solid opportunities for 3L recruiting/mass mailing in NC? I understand that this is a very unusual question but I can't emphasize enough how little interest I have in ever being a part of NY big law, though I could for a summer if it was necessary for getting back to a market I want to be in.

I imagine NY is the only remotely "safe" option when bidding a secondary market also, but I would much prefer Atlanta, DC (also highly competitive I know), if I had to leave the state for a bigger market.

I realize NY is the biggest destination by far for grads of Duke, but does its size make it an unavoidable safety option for any sane Duke 2L looking elsewhere?

[AT9]

Certainly don't go into it thinking the Southeast has to be your end-all-be-all. Be open to NYC.

This.

I'm a top 5% student at Wake/UNC and I struck out with NC firms.* Personally, a Robinson Bradshaw, Smith Anderson, Brooks Pierce, etc. would have been my ideal landing spot. But they're just super competitive because there are far fewer slots than there are highly qualified people who want those slots. They have their pick of the top UNC/Wake students, and a lot of other high-caliber students at Duke, UVA, Vandy, and other T14s who want to be in NC (and I think that number is growing).

That said, I personally think that having good ties to NC with decent (top half?) grades at Duke or UVA will give you a leg up on all but the tippy-top of the local schools. However, I can't say how much more I would pay - probably not much unless I was willing to go to NYC.

*I don't have strong pre-existing ties to NC, so that was probably a big factor - but still.

[HangingAround]

Many thanks to all who have replied! It's a long shot but it would be great to hear from some NC natives at these schools and how they fared - it seems like the strength of ties might be taken to a bit more of an extreme here compared to elsewhere. Also, any other insights are great as well !

[HangingAround]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

[lymenheimer]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

I'm still a 0L, but if I was in your position and not worried about lay prestige, I'd pick your favorite of Wake/UNC. Since you aren't gung-ho for biglaw and want to stay in NC, UNC for free is a great option (I'd probably go UNC over Wake due to size of alumni network).

[HangingAround]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

I'm still a 0L, but if I was in your position and not worried about lay prestige, I'd pick your favorite of Wake/UNC. Since you aren't gung-ho for biglaw and want to stay in NC, UNC for free is a great option (I'd probably go UNC over Wake due to size of alumni network).

Yea that's definitely where my thoughts are at, especially hearing about native NC people having more trouble than they expected coming from Duke. Also, a couple firms I talked to insisted they would view the major schools in NC equally, so you'd be at a disadvantage at a school like Duke with a relatively more competitive class. I prefer UNC to Wake for that same reason and also proximity to Raleigh.

[existentialcrisis]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

I'm still a 0L, but if I was in your position and not worried about lay prestige, I'd pick your favorite of Wake/UNC. Since you aren't gung-ho for biglaw and want to stay in NC, UNC for free is a great option (I'd probably go UNC over Wake due to size of alumni network).

Yea, but if OP's goals are regional midlaw or whatever, in all likelihood he's not going to get that without amazing grades at Wake or UNC. I think the moral of the story is that these firms are hard to get from anywhere, because there simply aren't that many spots.

Median at Duke/UVA seems like it would give OP a shot at these NC firms, and even if it didn't, it would give them a strong shot at some firms that might allow them to lateral there.
a

UNC/Wake traditionally place ~20 percent in firms >100 attorneys. Even with stats above both 75ths, I have hard time believing it's a good idea to attend these schools with the goal of landing one of these firms.

[HangingAround]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

I'm still a 0L, but if I was in your position and not worried about lay prestige, I'd pick your favorite of Wake/UNC. Since you aren't gung-ho for biglaw and want to stay in NC, UNC for free is a great option (I'd probably go UNC over Wake due to size of alumni network).

Yea, but if OP's goals are regional midlaw or whatever, in all likelihood he's not going to get that without amazing grades at Wake or UNC. I think the moral of the story is that these firms are hard to get from anywhere, because there simply aren't that many spots.

Median at Duke/UVA seems like it would give OP a shot at these NC firms, and even if it didn't, it would give them a strong shot at some firms that might allow them to lateral there.
a

UNC/Wake traditionally place ~20 percent in firms >100 attorneys. Even with stats above both 75ths, I have hard time believing it's a good idea to attend these schools with the goal of landing one of these firms.

Yea I understand this sentiment and realize law school grading is pretty random so I shouldn't expect to finish top fifth even with higher stats during admissions. On the other hand, a lot of people at UNC don't want firm jobs and I would be fine with a firm well smaller than 100+ as long as it is a reputable place. I know there are some really good boutiques in the state of 30-40 attorneys (thinking Ellis Winters type places). Still very difficult to get, I'm sure, but at least broadens the range. If I didn't get the optimal firm job from UNC/Wake, at least I'd be in the state with very manageable debt. I should clarify that I would take a huge pay cut to not be in NYC and not be doing biglaw, so the idea of going to a T14 and splitting a bidlist or something is not particularly appealing.

Maybe the NC midlaw people I talked to were not genuine, which I don't see any reason why, but they insisted that top 25% at Duke would not be at an advantage over top 25% at UNC for their evaluation. I know that seems a bit odd, but they said performance relative to your class is key at these schools they consider "top schools" for recruitment (including Duke and UNC) - which is intimidating since I would consider median at Duke better than median at UNC.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Updated with some outcomes and would love more feedback - many thanks to all who have chimed in both here and through private messages!

I'm still a 0L, but if I was in your position and not worried about lay prestige, I'd pick your favorite of Wake/UNC. Since you aren't gung-ho for biglaw and want to stay in NC, UNC for free is a great option (I'd probably go UNC over Wake due to size of alumni network).

Yea, but if OP's goals are regional midlaw or whatever, in all likelihood he's not going to get that without amazing grades at Wake or UNC. I think the moral of the story is that these firms are hard to get from anywhere, because there simply aren't that many spots.

Median at Duke/UVA seems like it would give OP a shot at these NC firms, and even if it didn't, it would give them a strong shot at some firms that might allow them to lateral there.
a

UNC/Wake traditionally place ~20 percent in firms >100 attorneys. Even with stats above both 75ths, I have hard time believing it's a good idea to attend these schools with the goal of landing one of these firms.

Yea I understand this sentiment and realize law school grading is pretty random so I shouldn't expect to finish top fifth even with higher stats during admissions. On the other hand, a lot of people at UNC don't want firm jobs and I would be fine with a firm well smaller than 100+ as long as it is a reputable place. I know there are some really good boutiques in the state of 30-40 attorneys (thinking Ellis Winters type places). Still very difficult to get, I'm sure, but at least broadens the range. If I didn't get the optimal firm job from UNC/Wake, at least I'd be in the state with very manageable debt. I should clarify that I would take a huge pay cut to not be in NYC and not be doing biglaw, so the idea of going to a T14 and splitting a bidlist or something is not particularly appealing. Also, at UNC I would be in an around six person full scholarship program that has existed for a few decades and has it's own programming/alumni network, for whatever marginal benefit that provides.

Maybe the NC midlaw people I talked to were not genuine, which I don't see any reason why, but they insisted that top 25% at Duke would not be at an advantage over top 25% at UNC for their evaluation. I know that seems a bit odd, but they said performance relative to your class is key at these schools they consider "top schools" for recruitment (including Duke and UNC) - which is intimidating since I would consider median at Duke quite good and significantly better than median at UNC.

The previous poster is correct for NC "midlaw" firms, and the same certainly goes for E&W and any comparable shop. The folks I know of who have been in the running for E&W at UNC/Wake were not only on law review but were people who had graded on. Getting a job at E&W is no easier than getting in at places like Robinson Bradshaw or Smith Anderson. There are some firms in the state that fall somewhere between the RBHs and MVAs of the world and so-called shitlaw. I'm thinking of places like Poyner Spruill or Tuggle Duggins or some others whose names elude me at the moment. But again, there aren't a ton of those places or tons of seats at them.

All that said, if you're clear that you're not gunning for biglaw/Article III clerkship or bust, you have NC ties, and you could be happy working at a small firm, in local or state government, or perhaps as a local prosecutor right off the bat (or spending a year clerking for the NC COA before ending up in a a similar situation), then UNC with a full ride is a fine choice.

[SplitMyPants]

Definitely do Duke, and then network while in school. See if they'll move with the Cornell offer. (It's unlikely though given that your current $$$ already puts you in the top 10% of scholarships.)

[Johann]

id go unc for free. its a little bit more of a risk, but it doesnt necessarily foreclose biglaw goals if you change your mind. since your main goal is midlaw, the interviewers at these firms aren't going to care about duke vs unc vs wake because most midlaw cares way less about prestige and way more about fit and ties. the interview is going to be what makes or breaks you. i think the little prestige hit is more than made up for in alumni network and no student loans.

the one caveat, is it's a little bit more of a risk because the chance at a bad outcome is a little higher at unc.