What's the deal with Harvard students?

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LetsGoMets
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What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:16 pm

0L, posting a question in this forum because I think it's relevant.

So I went to Harvard's ASW a week ago, and of the 15-20 current students I talked to, almost all had turned down scholarships at CCN, including many full rides, to pay sticker at Harvard -- and they're all totally convinced they made the right decision, and worked to convince me to make it also (I have a Hamilton, which I can't see myself not taking unless some magic scholarship money shows up to bring down Harvard's insane COA, which is 85k for next year). I actually had multiple people coming up to me at one event to try to sell me on going there, explaining without a whole lot of substance why Harvard beats a CCN full ride even at sticker, and then bringing over their friends to back them up. It was a pretty bizarre display. (Not quite as bizarre as the financial aid office's presentation to us on why HLS is a good financial decision, in which they directly told us to turn down full rides because after ten years our income would be equal... that was a trip.)

So what's the deal with these kids? Are they just blinded by the preftige light and drowning in confirmation bias, and will be telling a different story a year into their Biglaw jobs after they've started making debt payments? (I did try to get some of them to elaborate while I was there, but I either got blank stares or "just trust me, it's worth it" back.)

I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.

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KMart
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby KMart » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:18 pm

They are going to try to sell you for their school. They are Harvard kids. My guess is they will come to regret their decision. Not all will hit that realization, but a majority will in a few years IMO.

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chuckbass
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby chuckbass » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:21 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.

Part of the answer is that a substantial amount of students do not need to take out massive loans at a school like HLS. For many families sticker price is just a drop in the bucket and the Harvard name is worth it to them.

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LetsGoMets
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LetsGoMets » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:25 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.

Part of the answer is that a substantial amount of students do not need to take out massive loans at a school like HLS. For many families sticker price is just a drop in the bucket and the Harvard name is worth it to them.


Right, of course, I'm talking about the rest who are paying sticker and don't have family money. Obviously if someone else is paying the whole discussion is moot.

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bjsesq
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bjsesq » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:28 pm

Thought this would be about Harvard kids on TLS, was saddened to see it's pointless reading of tea leaves of kids you met at ASW (solid humblebrag).

flockavelli
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby flockavelli » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:31 pm

Well there's obviously a survivorship bias - almost defintely the majority of H students could have gone to a solid law school for free, the ones that are there are those that didn't take those offers. If you're wondering what that selects on, it's probably a risk-seeking temperament. Gambling $300,000 for a greater chance of the outcomes that people actually want out of law school. TLS skews the other way, towards risk aversion, so the two groups are going to have differing opinions as to what the right decision is.

The expected value of a CCN degree with no debt is probably higher than H with hundos in debt, but not necessarily the expected utility. Realistically, a lot of students probably have utility curves which place disproportionate emphasis on relatively unlikely outcomes, and are willing to take risks to maximize expected utility while sacrificing expected value. H increases the odds of those disproportionately valuable outcomes over CCN. Those are the people that take H (higher than 50% yield, so not insubstantial). Expected value maximizers follow the money.

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby zombie mcavoy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:31 pm

when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

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LoganCouture
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby LoganCouture » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:32 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.

Part of the answer is that a substantial amount of students do not need to take out massive loans at a school like HLS. For many families sticker price is just a drop in the bucket and the Harvard name is worth it to them.


Right, of course, I'm talking about the rest who are paying sticker and don't have family money. Obviously if someone else is paying the whole discussion is moot.


I think you might underestimate how large this contingent is...

Also, it seems to me like the people I know who took on sticker debt at YHS may not all have super rich families but at the very least their families are comfortably well off. Knowing that even if you fuck up, mommy and daddy can still take care of you is totally different than taking the plunge into 300K worth of debt all on your own.
Last edited by LoganCouture on Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bjsesq
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby bjsesq » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:32 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Awesome

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KMart
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby KMart » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:41 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Such a solid question, do you know how she responded?

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Desert Fox
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:43 pm

1) They haven't had to pay a single cent for school yet.

2) Most of them haven't got to their SA yet, where they meet 60 dumb asses from CCN.

3) They haven't worked for a year to see their debt load going nowhere while the people who took fullrides and ended up at the same firm are literally ballin' while they are budgeting their seamless groceries.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby itascot1992 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:45 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:0L, posting a question in this forum because I think it's relevant.

So I went to Harvard's ASW a week ago, and of the 15-20 current students I talked to, almost all had turned down scholarships at CCN, including many full rides, to pay sticker at Harvard -- and they're all totally convinced they made the right decision, and worked to convince me to make it also (I have a Hamilton, which I can't see myself not taking unless some magic scholarship money shows up to bring down Harvard's insane COA, which is 85k for next year). I actually had multiple people coming up to me at one event to try to sell me on going there, explaining without a whole lot of substance why Harvard beats a CCN full ride even at sticker, and then bringing over their friends to back them up. It was a pretty bizarre display. (Not quite as bizarre as the financial aid office's presentation to us on why HLS is a good financial decision, in which they directly told us to turn down full rides because after ten years our income would be equal... that was a trip.)

So what's the deal with these kids? Are they just blinded by the preftige light and drowning in confirmation bias, and will be telling a different story a year into their Biglaw jobs after they've started making debt payments? (I did try to get some of them to elaborate while I was there, but I either got blank stares or "just trust me, it's worth it" back.)

I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.



DUDE BUT ITS HARVARD... but columbia for free is a bigger win... but if mommy and daddy have money :roll:

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baal hadad
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby baal hadad » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:45 pm

bjsesq wrote:(solid humblebrag).

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zombie mcavoy
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby zombie mcavoy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:45 pm

KMart wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Such a solid question, do you know how she responded?

yeah it's on youtube. her face was priceless. I have to go find it now.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLQWtK ... rsCJGTcquw
Timestamp: 54:24

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:54 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
KMart wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Such a solid question, do you know how she responded?

yeah it's on youtube. her face was priceless. I have to go find it now.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLQWtK ... rsCJGTcquw
Timestamp: 54:24


fuckin lol. she responded with "I know more than most of the people in this room"

prob the federalist society prez askin the q

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runinthefront
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby runinthefront » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:03 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
KMart wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Such a solid question, do you know how she responded?

yeah it's on youtube. her face was priceless. I have to go find it now.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLQWtK ... rsCJGTcquw
Timestamp: 54:24


Alma mater Princeton University (A.B.)
University of Oxford (M.Phil.)
Harvard Law School (J.D.)

45th United States Solicitor General

COA/SCOTUS Clerk


I mean shit I know I'm late with the commentary but bro is coming from like EMU or something...in a room at least half-full of law students...what an absurd question
Last edited by runinthefront on Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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baal hadad
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby baal hadad » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:08 pm

zombie mcavoy wrote:
KMart wrote:
zombie mcavoy wrote:when justice kagan gave a talk at h this past fall a 1L asked this question
I want to first say on behalf of all of us, thank you for writing such readable opinions. There is a question that many of my professors have asked me, and now I want to turn it to you. What makes you more qualified to interpret the constitution than anyone else in this room?

Such a solid question, do you know how she responded?

yeah it's on youtube. her face was priceless. I have to go find it now.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLQWtK ... rsCJGTcquw
Timestamp: 54:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLQWtKATpM&list=UUBcn1VNOJUsPNrsCJGTcquw&t=3264

with time stamp

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:15 pm

runinthefront wrote:Alma mater Princeton University (A.B.)
University of Oxford (M.Phil.)
Harvard Law School (J.D.)

45th United States Solicitor General

COA/SCOTUS Clerk


I mean shit I know I'm late with the commentary but bro is coming from like EMU or something...in a room at least half-full of law students...what an absurd question

Dude, Kagan was below median in her first semester at HLS. She got a B in crim and a B- in Torts. If TLS existed then, everyone would be telling her to drop out and open a Subway franchise.

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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Hikikomorist » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:18 pm

rpupkin wrote:
runinthefront wrote:Alma mater Princeton University (A.B.)
University of Oxford (M.Phil.)
Harvard Law School (J.D.)

45th United States Solicitor General

COA/SCOTUS Clerk


I mean shit I know I'm late with the commentary but bro is coming from like EMU or something...in a room at least half-full of law students...what an absurd question

Dude, Kagan was below median in her first semester at HLS. She got a B in crim and a B- in Torts. If TLS existed then, everyone would be telling her to drop out and open a Subway franchise.


Where did you get this information, and is it available for the rest of SCOTUS?

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runinthefront
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby runinthefront » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:21 pm

rpupkin wrote:Dude, Kagan was below median in her first semester at HLS. She got a B in crim and a B- in Torts. If TLS existed then, everyone would be telling her to drop out and open a Subway franchise.


save for being like, the very last person in your class, I don't think anyone on TLS would suggest that Harvard students below median should drop out

also, what does that have to do w/ having literally years of substantive experience w/ constitutional matters over almost everyone in that room, especially the 1L bro
Last edited by runinthefront on Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpupkin
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:25 pm

runinthefront wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Dude, Kagan was below median in her first semester at HLS. She got a B in crim and a B- in Torts. If TLS existed then, everyone would be telling her to drop out and open a Subway franchise.

save for being like, the very last person in your class, I don't think anyone on TLS would suggest that Harvard students below median should drop out

also, what does that have to do w/ having literally years of substantive experience w/ constitutional matters over almost everyone in that room, especially the 1L EMU bro

Dude, it was a joke.

And, Hikkomorist, the information is definitely public. Five seconds of googling revealed this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/us/po ... .html?_r=0

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ballcaps
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby ballcaps » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:35 pm

lc39 wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:I would assume the TLS response is that they just don't understand money, should have taken their full rides, and are going to suffer in debt because they made the wrong decision. So is that just the modern HLS business model? Jack up tuition 4% every year, and dupe otherwise intelligent people into taking out massive loans to pay for something they probably could've gotten elsewhere much cheaper? Seems like a very exploitative system, if that's really the case.

Part of the answer is that a substantial amount of students do not need to take out massive loans at a school like HLS. For many families sticker price is just a drop in the bucket and the Harvard name is worth it to them.


Right, of course, I'm talking about the rest who are paying sticker and don't have family money. Obviously if someone else is paying the whole discussion is moot.


I think you might underestimate how large this contingent is...


echoing this. i know quite a few harvard students/alums. most come from at least some money, none has taken out significant loans, and a few were genuinely confused as to why i was even asking about cost.

of course this doesn't describe everybody.

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Pneumonia
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Pneumonia » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:46 pm

I guess part of it is most people that volunteer to go chat it up with 0L's at ASW generally like the school. And yea, a lot of the students have parents taking care of the full freight. Your first point is valid- no one should be trying to talk someone else out of a CCN full ride. So if that's the "deal" you mention then the common answers like survivorship, confirmation bias etc hold.

Another question you're asking is "why are there students at Harvard at all?" Here are a few of the reasons:

-Student not paying. I'd guess at least 1/3 aren't having to to take debt for one reason or another. Cost of living is going to be paid at any school, so subtract 80k from a 260k (cash) COA and you're at 180k. It is rarely 180k for H vs. CCN for free (see below), but whatever that number is there are just a surprising amount of students here from families to which that number is inconsequential. If you've been going to private school your whole life, plus private UG (as many/most here have) you don't show up to law school thinking "OMG! 55k/yr! I've been paying that for the last 16, but I should for sure stop now!" Anyway, bottom line, lots of people are rich so whatever, cool for them.

-No full ride at other T14. Harvard is big, so big that in order to maintain medians it takes a lot of splitters, KJD's etc. Most do not get full rides at CCN. Lots don't have full rides in the T14. One of my best friends here was accepted at NU and Harvard only from the T14. I didn't have any T14 full rides, or anything close. So the decision to me was a regional for free or H. Lots of people had a similar decision.

-PI focus. If you're rich, mom and dad are a good safety net. If you're not and you're set on PI, H has a pretty good LRAP and more placement power in niche jobs. (This one is more arguable, but judging by the number of people I've seen in my section alone get DOJ jobs 1L, it has at least some merit).

-Academia. Idk anything about this, but people toss it around as a reason for attending. Defensible I guess if combined with one of the above.

When you subtract (parents paying) and (no T14 full rides/huge schollys) and (PI/gov focus) from the group of students here there are definitely some students left. But there really are not that many. The pardigmatic idiot 0L (debt-financing, full ride at CCN, wants generic NY Biglaw) probably exists. I haven't met anyone who meets that profile though. There are for sure people here who should have gone somewhere else, but its not everyone.


ETA: The dude who asked that Q to Kagan is very nice, just quirky. I think he was nervous and phrased his question poorly. I'm not in his section but I do have class with him and have talked to him for a bit. He doesn't come across as super competitive or gunnerish, just a little quirky.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:45 pm

Ask them again what their opinion is when you're working at the same firm in three years

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yot11
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Re: What's the deal with Harvard students?

Postby yot11 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:59 pm

Pneumonia wrote:When you subtract (parents paying) and (no T14 full rides/huge schollys) and (PI/gov focus) from the group of students here there are definitely some students left. But there really are not that many. The pardigmatic idiot 0L (debt-financing, full ride at CCN, wants generic NY Biglaw) probably exists. I haven't met anyone who meets that profile though. There are for sure people here who should have gone somewhere else, but its not everyone.


This. I would also speculate that this is true at basically any school in the T14 and not just Harvard. People with parents paying (large chunk), people with no big $$$ offers (splitters), and people who plan on riding LRAP into the sunset probably account for 90% of the class.




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