BC v. Emory v. WUstl v. W&L Forum

[hopeful 0L]

UPDATE

School - scholarship - total COA

Now out
GW - 48K - 185K (post negotiation)
W&M - 39K - 125K (didn't budge)

Still considering
Emory - 81K- 135K
WUstl- 75K - 139K
BC - 84K - 115K
W&L - full - < 60K
Seton Hall - full - < 60K

Waitlisted at USC, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, and Cornell.

- Financing my education basically entirely through loans. Savings will probably cover almost 1 year col.
- From tri-state area close to NYC; some ties in Boston as well. Ideally want to work in/near a big city like NY, DC, BOS, ATL, etc.
- The pipe dream goals - biglaw/federal clerkship/etc. More realistically, I just want to be able to make a comfortable living and not totally hate my job.
- LSAT 167 (one time), GPA 3.2
- one year work experience post-grad, 2 internships in school, good service softs


Probably retaking in June. Anyway, I suppose my biggest question is: Is the above-listed debt for schools like Emory/WUstl/BC (ND) serviceable on a non-biglaw salary? Would a 70K salary with roughly twice that in debt be a financial death sentence?

[rad lulz]

The schools n that list that are affordable are not good for your goals

The schools that are decent on that list for your goals aren't affordable

Retake or reevaluate your goals

[PepperJack]

Either Emory or W&L. Emory carries some prestige in your region, but not enough to make it a viable option for big law. For 70k more I might take it over W&L, but would go back and forth like that song you're hot and you're cold.

[hopeful 0L]

Either Emory or W&L. Emory carries some prestige in your region, but not enough to make it a viable option for big law. For 70k more I might take it over W&L, but would go back and forth like that song you're hot and you're cold.

Pretty much the dilemma I'm facing. Emory is definitely a step up, but even Emory's employment stats aren't beyond reproach (20% school funded). I know W&L gets a bad rep here, but it still seems like the kids who do well there make out okay.

[nebula666]

I'd probably go to Seton Hall since you would much rather be stuck in NJ than wherever the hell you'd end up out of the rest of these schools if you don't land a biglaw job. I know that W&L has a better chance at biglaw than Seton Hall and is the same price but it's not enough to outweigh your ties to NJ in my opinion.

[NYC-WVU]

If you want a city, don't count out Chicago. Outside of NY, I think it's the most city place there is in the U.S.
I grew up in Manhattan and had spent plenty of time in Philly, Boston, Nashville, Atlanta, etc. to know what other cities are like. And I assumed Chicago would be the midwestern version of those places. It's not. It's a legit metropolis. And it has a lot of quality of life advantages over NY. This is not to discredit NYC. If someone said "I want to live in New York," I would reply "Damn right, you do!" But if someone says I want to live in a city, I would strongly recommend that they consider Chicago.

[ndirish2010]

Retake --> 170 --> UVA.

[hopeful 0L]

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

I'm absolutely open to Chicago, I just didn't really apply to schools that feed many grads there (with my gpa, the LSAT isn't quite there for Mich/Northwestern). Part of the appeal with ND is it sends a fair amount of people to (NYC and) Chicago and generally has more national reach than others outside the T14.

As for UVA, is that realisitc, even if I could bump it up to 170? I'm not sure.

Does anybody like that price for Emory? Are people that down on W&L, even with full?

[Paul Campos]

If you could bump your UGPA to 3.8 with two months of hard work would you do that?

Well your LSAT is a lot more important than your UGPA.

[ndirish2010]

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

I'm absolutely open to Chicago, I just didn't really apply to schools that feed many grads there (with my gpa, the LSAT isn't quite there for Mich/Northwestern). Part of the appeal with ND is it sends a fair amount of people to (NYC and) Chicago and generally has more national reach than others outside the T14.

As for UVA, is that realisitc, even if I could bump it up to 170? I'm not sure.

Does anybody like that price for Emory? Are people that down on W&L, even with full?

I think UVA would be feasible with a 170 and maybe Michigan as well?

Notre Dame isn't really portable to places where you don't have ties. Pretty difficult to get Chicago without even any Midwest ties out of NDLS. I would not do that if I were you.

[krnpridejk]

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

I'm absolutely open to Chicago, I just didn't really apply to schools that feed many grads there (with my gpa, the LSAT isn't quite there for Mich/Northwestern). Part of the appeal with ND is it sends a fair amount of people to (NYC and) Chicago and generally has more national reach than others outside the T14.

As for UVA, is that realisitc, even if I could bump it up to 170? I'm not sure.

Does anybody like that price for Emory? Are people that down on W&L, even with full?

Here's my $0.02...
WUSTL, although located in St. Louis, actually seems to place as well, if not better, in Chicago as it does in St. Louis area... In fact, i heard alot of st. louis firms take don't take wustl graduates without a tie to the region, and instead go for a lower ranked SLU... if u can try to negotiate for even a sight more at $$ at wustl, i would vote for WashU.

I would vote against W&L, although I do like their Honor Code system...Their new practical approach to 3rd yr program thing kinda seems to have failed and messed them up sorely in terms of firm-reputation and employment, as can be very well seen in the HUGE drop in its USNWR ranking.

Lastly, you said above in your OP that ideal career goal is BigLaw but more realistically, a decent paying job in which you won't hate your life, but depending on your personality, you MIGHT end up hating your life if you do go to BigLaw....at any rate, if you end up near the top in your class, you might have a decent chance at BigLaw, from WUSTL...
For whatever it is worth, I recently got into Cornell, which was my dream school, but until then, WashU was one of my top contenders...

[hopeful 0L]

updated w/ new info and poll at top. Thanks!

[Power_of_Facing]

UPDATE

School - scholarship - total COA

Now out
GW - 48K - 185K (post negotiation)
W&M - 39K - 125K (didn't budge)
Seton Hall - full - < 60K (I'm confident I can do well there but curve + 1/3 students lost/reduced scholarships after yr 1 = no thanks)
USC- WL

Still considering
Emory - 81K- 135K
WUstl- 75K - 139K
BC - 75K - 124K
W&L - full - < 60K

Riding Waitlists at Notre Dame (pretty surprising) and Cornell (reserve). Haven't heard a peep from Vandy, but not optimistic.

- Financing my education basically entirely through loans. Savings will probably cover almost 1 year col.
- From tri-state area close to NYC; some ties in Boston as well. Ideally want to work in/near a big city like NY, DC, BOS, ATL, etc.
- The pipe dream goals - biglaw/federal clerkship/etc. More realistically, I just want to be able to make a comfortable living and not totally hate my job.
- LSAT 167 (one time), GPA 3.2
- one year work experience post-grad, 2 internships in school, good service softs

Emory and WUSTL are solid options but I'd feel a lot better if they were closer to 100K. BC is lower ranked I guess but is attached to an ideal market. If Notre Dame came in with good scholly I'd probably bite, but that seems unlikely off of the Waitlist.

Probably retaking in June. Anyway, I suppose my biggest question is: Is the above-listed debt for schools like Emory/WUstl/BC (ND) serviceable on a non-biglaw salary? Would a 70K salary with roughly twice that in debt be a financial death sentence?

Please retake, twice if need be.

[hopeful 0L]

bump

[cron1834]

The schools n that list that are affordable are not good for your goals

The schools that are decent on that list for your goals aren't affordable

Retake or reevaluate your goals

[middlemarch]

I voted BC. While those are all somewhat regional law schools, BC is located in what I consider a big city, with large firms of national repute (e.g. Ropes, Wilmer, Bingham, Goodwin, etc.). I realize you listed Atlanta, but it seems much more sprawling and suburban than, say, New York, which appears to be your reference mark. Once you're in school in a regional market, the national rankings matter much less.

Thought this was a useful resource to compare firms and their Biglaw hiring numbers. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202644151133

[Informative]

Out of those still considering, BC will give you the best shot at BigLaw. With your scholarship/aid, it would probably be my top choice out of the otehrs you're considering, including W&L with a full ride.

[hopeful 0L]

Thank you. The NLJ stats are indeed helpful.

I guess what I'm still wondering is if the estimated principal debt ~125-135K is going to bury me if I end up striking out/deciding against biglaw once in school. Are there any grads out there that are making say 60-80K and servicing that type of debt (or in that neighborhood)? If so, I'd really appreciate some of your insights.

[transferror]

The schools n that list that are affordable are not good for your goals

The schools that are decent on that list for your goals aren't affordable

Retake or reevaluate your goals

[Otunga]

Thank you. The NLJ stats are indeed helpful.

I guess what I'm still wondering is if the estimated principal debt ~125-135K is going to bury me if I end up striking out/deciding against biglaw once in school. Are there any grads out there that are making say 60-80K and servicing that type of debt (or in that neighborhood)? If so, I'd really appreciate some of your insights.

60k would be on the high end of a starting small law salary, it seems. Perhaps 70-80k are attainable a little ways out if you're at a good firm, but I don't know, and it would be cool if somebody could speak to that.

[Rowinguy2009]

For what it's worth, I was faced with a similar decision four years ago. Took the W&L full-ride over some schools that are (right now) a little bit more highly ranked than W&L. Graduated with 25K in debt (parents helped me a little, gave me around 4K a year... also got paying jobs both summers which helped...... paid off the entirety of my debt this past Feb). Currently work for a midlaw firm (140 attorneys) that I am very happy with, and I was recently offered a fed clerkship for September 2015 that I am gonna do because fuck it why not.

I know I know - anecodotal evidence is anecodtal. And I am very aware that at least a decent portion of my class does not feel the same way. But if I had it to do over again, I would not change a thing.

[hopeful 0L]

bump

[Fiero85]

Thank you. The NLJ stats are indeed helpful.

I guess what I'm still wondering is if the estimated principal debt ~125-135K is going to bury me if I end up striking out/deciding against biglaw once in school. Are there any grads out there that are making say 60-80K and servicing that type of debt (or in that neighborhood)? If so, I'd really appreciate some of your insights.

60k would be on the high end of a starting small law salary, it seems. Perhaps 70-80k are attainable a little ways out if you're at a good firm, but I don't know, and it would be cool if somebody could speak to that.

Yeah, I think OP is being overly optimistic with non-biglaw salaries.

130k+ in debt before you have a car, house, or anything else is killer on realistic non-biglaw salary. Don't do it.

Again:

The schools n that list that are affordable are not good for your goals

The schools that are decent on that list for your goals aren't affordable

Retake or reevaluate your goals

Please retake and do Cornell, NU, or something similar if you want biglaw in a large city.

Or retake and shoot for a fully at BC/Emory/WUSTL/Vandy if you just "want to be able to make a comfortable living and not totally hate my job" (which is the option I chose, for the record).

Or re-think the whole LS path.

ETA: I'm glad it seems like you plan to retake based on the wording of the OP. Study hard. Again, YES this is too much debt as it stands. Good luck!