Columbia vs Berkeley Forum

[L’Étranger]

OP: CLS places well in California. I think Boalt gives you a slightly better chance in SF. I think the two schools place equally well in LA.

It's actually more than a slight chance.

OCI is what you need to consider. The majority of firms that come to Berkeley's OCI are California firms. The majority of firms that come to Columbia's OCI are NY firms.

[rpupkin]

OP: CLS places well in California. I think Boalt gives you a slightly better chance in SF. I think the two schools place equally well in LA.

It's actually more than a slight chance.

OCI is what you need to consider. The majority of firms that come to Berkeley's OCI are California firms. The majority of firms that come to Columbia's OCI are NY firms.

I think you're wrong. I can't say I've been through CLS's OCI, but I'd wager that almost all of the SF offices of the big law firms interview there. Yeah, I know Keker doesn't interview there. And there may be a few other SF boutiques that participate in OCI at Boalt but not CLS, but we're probably talking about less than a dozen SA slots.

[L’Étranger]

OP: CLS places well in California. I think Boalt gives you a slightly better chance in SF. I think the two schools place equally well in LA.

It's actually more than a slight chance.

OCI is what you need to consider. The majority of firms that come to Berkeley's OCI are California firms. The majority of firms that come to Columbia's OCI are NY firms.

I think you're wrong. I can't say I've been through CLS's OCI, but I'd wager that almost all of the SF offices of the big law firms interview there. Yeah, I know Keker doesn't interview there. And there may be a few other SF boutiques that participate in OCI at Boalt but not CLS, but we're probably talking about less than a dozen SA slots.

First off, I'll point out that bay area refers to not just SF but both SF and SV.

It would be interesting to compare the number of CA firms that come to the two schools. I actually think you are wrong, but I don't have the numbers to back it up either.

[rpupkin]

First off, I'll point out that bay area refers to not just SF but both SF and SV.

It would be interesting to compare the number of CA firms that come to the two schools. I actually think you are wrong, but I don't have the numbers to back it up either.

Thanks for the tip about the geographic reach of the SF Bay Area.

I'm curious: what school did you do OCI at? And what SF/SV offices did not show up?

[Tiago Splitter]

Looks like about 20 Bay Area offices came to CLS' OCI, with a handful of others extending callbacks without having a unique interview schedule (meaning if you wanted the Bay Area office you probably had to bid on a different city.)

I didn't try at all for northern California but I do think getting a biglaw job in CA from CLS is a little harder than some are making it out to be. That said, if you focus heavily on it and aren't picky your chances are still pretty good.

[L’Étranger]

First off, I'll point out that bay area refers to not just SF but both SF and SV.

It would be interesting to compare the number of CA firms that come to the two schools. I actually think you are wrong, but I don't have the numbers to back it up either.

Thanks for the tip about the geographic reach of the SF Bay Area.

I'm curious: what school did you do OCI at? And what SF/SV offices did not show up?

I did OCI at Berkeley. I was not bidding the bay area, so I don't know who specifically came and who didn't come.

You know honestly, if the question was which of the two schools provide the most opportunities to their students overall, I don't know what the right answer is. If, however, the question is which of the two schools gives a student the best chance of landing a big law job in CA, I would say Berkeley with confidence based on my experiences here.

[Redamon1]

NYU. And then Duke.

You probably won't get CA biglaw out of any of these schools. Berkeley's biglaw placement is the second worst behind Georgetown out of the top 14 and you're not going to find a job in international arbitration, whatever that means. So minimize your debt and go to the school with one of the better biglaw placement out of the list.

As for these:

antitrust - you're looking at NYC
energy - you're looking at the South, maybe DC
tax - small niche practice group
emerging company/venture capital - not sure what you're talking about. hard to get straight out of law school

I don't even know where to begin. International arbitration is a thing––a niche field for sure, but it's real; CA Biglaw is a sure bet from no school but Berkeley has one of the strongest placements in the country; there's definitely antitrust and tax work in CA; and emerging/venture capital work certainly exists and SV is a strong market for that kind of work. Berkeley likely has the top energy and environment program in the country and a number of firms and PI groups do energy and cleantech work in CA. FWIW, if OP decides to pursue international arbitration and to go to NY, he/she can do that from Boalt too. It's true that there is less of that work in CA (though there is some) than in NY, but NY firms doing international work regularly court boalties heavily during OCI (speaking from personal experience and that of several friends).

[lecsa]

NYU. And then Duke.

You probably won't get CA biglaw out of any of these schools. Berkeley's biglaw placement is the second worst behind Georgetown out of the top 14 and you're not going to find a job in international arbitration, whatever that means. So minimize your debt and go to the school with one of the better biglaw placement out of the list.

As for these:

antitrust - you're looking at NYC
energy - you're looking at the South, maybe DC
tax - small niche practice group
emerging company/venture capital - not sure what you're talking about. hard to get straight out of law school

I don't even know where to begin. International arbitration is a thing––a niche field for sure, but it's real; CA Biglaw is a sure bet from no school but Berkeley has one of the strongest placements in the country; there's definitely antitrust and tax work in CA; and emerging/venture capital work certainly exists and SV is a strong market for that kind of work. Berkeley likely has the top energy and environment program in the country and a number of firms and PI groups do energy and cleantech work in CA. FWIW, if OP decides to pursue international arbitration and to go to NY, he/she can do that from Boalt too. It's true that there is less of that work in CA (though there is some) than in NY, but NY firms doing international work regularly court boalties heavily during OCI (speaking from personal experience and that of several friends).

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, period, but those areas are generally where most of that type of work is located. Most antitrust work is in on the East Coast, etc. Tax is a niche field and you should really take corporate and partnership tax before deciding whether you want to be a tax attorney. Also, you shouldn't go to law school betting on getting "international arbitration" or "emerging company/VC" work straight out (or period, rather). It's naive to think otherwise.

[mtn663]

I hope you realize that the vast majority of "international arbitration" within the United states work takes place in New York City (or by New York offices at the London arbitration tribunal). California is not a hub for international work in general, quite the opposite - your goals match NY firm work, so why do you want to be in the bay area? None of what I'm reading makes sense.

Columbia is undoubtedly the best school to go to for international arbitration - it has trans-Atlantic arbitration speakers, practitioners, judges, academics ect come to campus every week or several times a week, firm lunches nearly every friday through the society for international law or arbitration where you meet people from the practice areas, George Bermann is at CLS (monster in the field); CLS is one of the few schools to host a serious competitive Vis team (the international commercial arbitration moot court, which is actually competing in Vienna right now). So if you are serious about international arbitration, CLS over any other school IMO (including riding out the Harvard wait list at sticker).

But there are some major caveats. First, CLS at sticker is pretty crazy - but so is Boalt (crazier actually). Second, international arbitration is a very niche field, and as a previous poster mentioned, even top firms with a relative large amount of work in the subject wouldn't be able to assign you to it as an exclusive practice area; you'd be in the litigation department, getting on some arbitration award projects when you had time. Third, since you want to go back to California and you "hate" NY, I am highly suspicious of your commitment to international arbitration, or true international work, at all.

my impressions are that Columbia/NYU are pretty comparable in this area, so I'd go with NYU if that's the priority since $$

work is largely in NY, but also DC, especially for investor-State work (ICSID). not CA

[smokeylarue]

Getting a California job was a bloodbath this past EIP for CLS (for Class of 2015). There are tons of Cali kids who weren't able to get back (but getting a NYC job was fairly easy).

That said, if you're ok with starting in NYC first and you want a big safety net, CLS is better choice.

[MyopicVisage]

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[MyopicVisage]

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[smokeylarue]

Getting a California job was a bloodbath this past EIP for CLS (for Class of 2015). There are tons of Cali kids who weren't able to get back (but getting a NYC job was fairly easy).

That said, if you're ok with starting in NYC first and you want a big safety net, CLS is better choice.

Is this SF/SV region, LA region, or on the whole?

Both. About 20 total headed back to Cali in the summer (out of class of 370ish I think)

[MyopicVisage]

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[jbagelboy]

Getting a California job was a bloodbath this past EIP for CLS (for Class of 2015). There are tons of Cali kids who weren't able to get back (but getting a NYC job was fairly easy).

That said, if you're ok with starting in NYC first and you want a big safety net, CLS is better choice.

Is this SF/SV region, LA region, or on the whole?

Both. About 20 total headed back to Cali in the summer (out of class of 370ish I think)

That's 20 out of how many who wanted go back to CA...roughly?

This portrayal is a little bleak. There were 20 distinct offers accepted for California offices at EIP, but keep in mind a few things. First, not all CA offices are represented at EIP. For example, Orrick Menlo Park came, but LA and OC didn't. Latham LA and SD came, but OC didn't. Columbia students still go to these offices but they aren't always published.

Second, not all firms come to EIP - in fact, the firms with CA offices that tend to come are the top firms. The vast majority of CA-bound people are headed to V10s, i.e. Davis Polk, Skadden, Simpson, Gibson, Latham, Sidley, and the rest headed to most prestigious firms in the respective locations - MoFo, Wilson Sonsini in SF, Irell and Sheppard in LA. So people aren't scrapping the bottom of the barrel here. Case in point, three S&C offers for LA office were declined for NY.

I'm not claiming superior knowledge here, but if people are "striking out" that means they aren't getting the MOST sought after firms - when there's really such a pitched struggle you tend not to see such a concentration at the very top.

[aena]

Dear OP, I am having almost the same dilemma: Columbia vs. Berkeley + interest in international arbitration, and I would like to share some insights I gained during the Berk ASD.

During my visit, I had the chance to talk with some 3L international law journal editors who were employed in big law firms in the bay area, and when I asked them in what area they were going to practice, and they answered "international arbitration". So I don't think "international arbitration in CA" is downright impossible.

Also I have heard that NY employment prospect for Boalties is actually pretty good given how there is less competition among classmates and that east coast judges/firms want diversity among schools they hire from. So why not try to mitigate the misery of law school with the amazing SF weather/good food then go work in NY? That's actually why I'm leaning towards Berkeley.

[aena]

NY firms doing international work regularly court boalties heavily during OCI (speaking from personal experience and that of several friends).

I would like to hear more about this!

[lecsa]

NY firms doing international work regularly court boalties heavily during OCI (speaking from personal experience and that of several friends).

I would like to hear more about this!

It's called biglaw firms, since all biglaw firms do "international work." What that actually entails is lots of drudgery and BS.

[dixiecupdrinking]

What do you guys like about international arbitration? It's mostly just commercial litigation in a fake court. I mean, people do like it for various reasons but unless you have a good idea of what that field is, I wouldn't make a law school decision on that ground.

California versus NYC, on the other hand, sounds like something you are sure of your preference about.

Berkeley's a great school and life's too short to live on the wrong side of the country.

[aena]

Hahaha, lecsa...

As a 0L, of course I won't pretend I know anything about what I claim to be interested about. But how I discovered this international arbitration thing is that I decided I wanna do something international, but I don't wanna do transactional.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Hahaha, lecsa...

As a 0L, of course I won't pretend I know anything about what I claim to be interested about. But how I discovered this international arbitration thing is that I decided I wanna do something international, but I don't wanna do transactional.

Alright, well, suffice it to say I wouldn't make any decisions based on that.

[Redamon1]

Yes, big law firms are mostly similar and overplay their differences. So why not practice in a region that has a better quality of life (as far as biglaw quality of life goes, lol)?

To expand on geography: If OP is interested in SF/SV biglaw (or CA biglaw more generally) Berkeley is probably the best choice here, including for the few firms in SF that do international arbitration. And getting a biglaw offer in NY out of Berkeley is easier than getting an SF offer. So many Boalt grads opt to stay in CA, so the (comparatively) few that bid heavily and strategically on NY are usually successful. The big East-Coast firms that do international arbitration (e.g. Wilmer, W&C, Debevoise, S&C) regularly attend Berkeley's OCI and extend offers. And to the extent you want to focus on international law while in school (international arbitration and other things), there are plenty of courses/clinics and student groups to choose from at Boalt.

Also, in response to OP FWIW--the Berkeley brand does carry a lot of weight internationally. In some regions (Asia in particular but also parts of Europe), it carries as much if not more weight than Columbia.