Georgetown part-time?

[Vasia]

^

I'm not going to bother with searching for and posting links. Try this: I go to one of those schools. My girlfriend goes to the other. We both switched from part-time to full time with no problem at all. No minimum GPA, no hassle, no separate application other than an intent form. If you need more proof, you can come sit with me in class on Tuesday.

I did not mean to question your expertise. I was just curious.

[thedogship]

No sweat. I just meant that I am a more credible source on the topic than any web link out there, having just made the switch. I think starting out part-time at either one of those schools is a great "back door" in, considering how normally the admissions requirements are pretty close but maybe slightly lower than full-time, and you really only have to be part-time for not that long. The one thing to note is that you will have to take evening classes the whole first year, but if you switch to full time, you will just take some additional courses in the day for second semester. Starting 2L year, you can take mostly everything during the day. But i think you're making a big mistake not choosing a part-time acceptance at Gtown or GW rather than a full-time acceptance at a lower-ranked school. Particularly if you want to work in DC or NYC, both those schools have great job prospects in both those cities.

[Da Stain]

Not to get in a pissing contest, but seriously, do your research instead of having me do it for you. The boutiques you mention:

2006 IP Litigation Dept. of the Year according to AmLaw- Finnegan
2007 IP Litigation Dept. of the Year According to Vault- F&R

IP Law & Business has picked either of these 2 as the Lit. Dept of the year for the last 7 years.

You're right a former PTO examiner probably can't be considered an expert in Patent Prosecution. And a PhD probably isn't an expert in their respective field. I think the idiocy of this speaks for itself.

As to the notion that filings in district courts somehow represents that a firm in that area is litigating is also more than moronic. My group alone has active litigations in Texas, Illinois, Delaware, California and NY. That's just one of roughly 10 teams in our firm. And proximity to the PTO is only half the story. Back before computers and the internet, being close to the PTO was somewhat essential for a patent firm, boutique or not. That history is reflected in the best IP practices still located in DC. (As to AmLaw, 2007 Dept. of the Year, Wilmer Hale's IP dept. has most of it's partners in Boston (HQ). 2nd of Course is DC. Ditto for Associates.) So, yeah, DC probably isn't as big a market for IP as I thought if the Dept. of the Year is locating most of its people not in their home office in DC.

I'll also add here, that contrary to your boutique myth, Wilmer Hale has 9 GW grads in their IP department. GULC has 1.

Where to begin to address your notion that the fact that GW simply has more students interested in IP reflects it's notable edge on GULC. Points 2 and 3 after that are essentially irrelevant since we're not assuming more candidates from GW are accepted at FH and F&R, it's a fact. Why do you think there are so many more IP interested-students from GW? Probably because if it's what you want to do, you know that going to GW is going to offer you better course selection, better faculty, and better career options WITH RESPECT TO IP.

As I said, if you are someone who already knows they want to do IP, my opinion is go to GW. If there is anyone who can offer a credible opinion here besides Moron #1 (me) and Moron #2 (FLS), I think you'd be doing the board a real service.

[FLS08]

OK, I think this is going to be my last post in this thread. Obviously, reasonable minds can differ on the topic, and the difference between the two schools in this field is probably not large enough to merit much more discussion, absent others contributing their opinions.

Not to get in a pissing contest, but seriously, do your research instead of having me do it for you. The boutiques you mention:

2006 IP Litigation Dept. of the Year according to AmLaw- Finnegan
2007 IP Litigation Dept. of the Year According to Vault- F&R

OK, I was talking about the *current* IP Litigation Department of the Year from the American Lawyer. I picked that ranking not because it is more authoritative than others, but because it just came out this month so the article was still fresh in my mind. For reference, here are the results:

Winner: WilmerHale
Finalists: Kirkland & Ellis, Morrison & Foerster, Irell & Manella

You don't need to get defensive about Finnegan and F&R. They are obviously giants in the field. I just thought that including these other firms would yield a more representative survey for other readers, as GP firms are a different animal than boutiques and have somewhat different hiring standards (for instance, they tend to place less emphasis on technical background, and tend to have little or no prosecution).

As to the notion that filings in district courts somehow represents that a firm in that area is litigating is also more than moronic. My group alone has active litigations in Texas, Illinois, Delaware, California and NY.

You're right that this notion is nonsensical, and it isn't what I meant. My intention was to say that, looking at national filings in IP cases, you can tally up the number of cases that a given firm handles each year, which will at least give you an idea of how active that firm is in IP. From inspection of that list, you can see which geographic markets are more active because most people in the field know where the IP practice of a given big-name firm is concentrated. In fact, I believe that one of the publications already releases tallies like this, but I can't remember for sure which one (maybe IP Law 360?). Maybe you can tell us, as you seem to follow these things quite closely.

(As to AmLaw, 2007 Dept. of the Year, Wilmer Hale's IP dept. has most of it's partners in Boston (HQ). 2nd of Course is DC. Ditto for Associates.) So, yeah, DC probably isn't as big a market for IP as I thought if the Dept. of the Year is locating most of its people not in their home office in DC.

Look, I am not contesting the fact that DC is a big market for IP--it's definitely top 5, if not top 3. But you said "If you're serious about wanting to do IP, you do it in DC. I don't think anyone will tell you otherwise." This gives the reader the impression that you believe DC is the only game in town, when it clearly isn't. Even from looking at the four firms I mentioned above, or really any national ranking, you will see that DC is just one of many regions with top-flight IP practices. The field is very dispersed (which is why I wanted to broaden up the discussion beyond DC in the first place), but if there were a clear winner for top market, it would almost certainly be California.

And I'm sorry, but your specific example about WilmerHale just isn't convincing. DC has the second most IP lawyers for that particular firm because that's where Wilmer Cutler Pickering had its HQ, so there were obviously a huge number of lawyers already there when they merged with Boston-based Hale and Dorr a few years ago. It's not like a Boston firm was scouting around for a new market to open an office and consciously chose DC over all the others (and even if it did, it's just one sample point).

Why do you think there are so many more IP interested-students from GW? Probably because if it's what you want to do, you know that going to GW is going to offer you better course selection, better faculty, and better career options WITH RESPECT TO IP.

I am not disputing that many students think this. I am simply questioning whether that very last part (better career options) is really true. For what it's worth, you've convinced me that GW's strength in this field carries more weight than I'd originally thought, but I am still not sure that it's enough to open more doors than a Georgetown degree would (and if it is, it would probably be largely due to the alumni network).

By the way, I did perform one attorney search on a firm's website out of curiosity. In Kirkland's IP group, there are 16 Georgetown grads and 12 GW grads. Not a landslide, but it is an example in the other direction.

If there is anyone who can offer a credible opinion here besides Moron #1 (me) and Moron #2 (FLS), I think you'd be doing the board a real service.

Agreed! Out of personal curiosity, I would also like to hear the perspectives of others, especially attorneys who are active in recruiting.

[FLS08]

Hmm, guess I should read more carefully. Here is a quote from thedogship that I originally missed:

I'm personally of the opinion that it's better to go to the best school you can, and that specialty concentrations (in this case, IP) don't mean as much as quality of school in the long run. If you go to GW and do IP, you'll have great options. You just may have those same options and more if you go to Gtown.

Since both thedogship and his girlfriend are at least 2Ls at Georgetown and GW, they have already gone through the main recruiting cycle and are thus in a good position to speak about their placement. To me, this is the most authoritative opinion we have so far.

[Rosstafarian]

No sweat. I just meant that I am a more credible source on the topic than any web link out there, having just made the switch. I think starting out part-time at either one of those schools is a great "back door" in, considering how normally the admissions requirements are pretty close but maybe slightly lower than full-time, and you really only have to be part-time for not that long. The one thing to note is that you will have to take evening classes the whole first year, but if you switch to full time, you will just take some additional courses in the day for second semester. Starting 2L year, you can take mostly everything during the day. But i think you're making a big mistake not choosing a part-time acceptance at Gtown or GW rather than a full-time acceptance at a lower-ranked school. Particularly if you want to work in DC or NYC, both those schools have great job prospects in both those cities.

Thanks, thedog. Your posts have been really helpful.

So what about summer associate positions if you're transferring from FT to PT? Are you still eligible for them without having completed the entire 1L curriculum? When would you squeeze in that extra course to catch up?

Same question re: transferring to another school -- I take it from your first post that you can apply without having completed the entire 1L curriculum?

One more: are your grades curved (and are you ranked) with respect to your part-time classmates only or the entire 1L class?

[Rosstafarian]

Ba-dump-bump.

[thedogship]

Good questions. Here's the answers as best as I can give them:

So what about summer associate positions if you're transferring from FT to PT? Are you still eligible for them without having completed the entire 1L curriculum? When would you squeeze in that extra course to catch up?

As I understand it, both schools allow part-time students to take evening summer courses after their first year (usually just one), in an effort to make up credits and be on track to graduate in 3 years (That still may leave one class outstanding, that would need to be made up 2nd or 3rd year). Getting a summer associate position is tough as most big firms for 1Ls, but some are able to swing it. The one thing that would need to be cleared with any employer is that you'd be taking evening classes; some are totally cool with that, some may have a problem, varies from place to place, but I think most would be understanding.

Same question re: transferring to another school -- I take it from your first post that you can apply without having completed the entire 1L curriculum?

This is a bit trickier. Again, it varies from school to school. You'd need to ask the individual schools what their transfer entrance requirements are. I know that UVA has allowed people who started as part-time and then switched to full-time 2nd semester to transfer. Some schools' admissions offices say that they only accept transfers that have fully completed their first year - I think how strictly this is adhered to can vary from school to school. I think a lot depends on the quality of applicant and the grades they've earned (for example, they will probably accept a kid with a 3.85 1L GPA with good recs who is only missing a Con Law class). With that said, again, I wouldn't go to any school for the 1L year that you weren't comfortable being at all three years. Transferring is difficult and the odds are against you, esp if you have the PT/FT factor involved. It really varies from school to school. I am in the process of figuring this very part out and the long and short of it is to ask each school, and take your shot at applying if you are really interested, no matter what they say. The worst case scenario is that you will be out $75. But if your grades are good enough, why not give it a try? You might impress someone, and if not, you're no worse off. It is a lot of additional work though to transfer, new applications, new personal statements, new LORs, so you can't take it casually since most are due starting May 1 or before.

One more: are your grades curved (and are you ranked) with respect to your part-time classmates only or the entire 1L class?

Again, this varies from school to school too, but generally I think you are ranked against the people in the same situation as you - i.e. if you are a part-timer, you are ranked against other part-timers, if you are full-time, you are ranked against other full-timers. Don't quote me on that, but I think I remember hearing that and it would make sense if those percentages are meant to show your relative strength against your peers. This is worth asking an admissions office about though, as I am not totally sure.

[shoebox]

If you do GT part-time, I'd recommend transferring to full time as soon as possible. I spoke with a recruiter in the DC area recently, and it came up that the part time programs at some schools are really looked down upon (relative to the full time programs), and mentioned Georgetown as a prime example.

[Rosstafarian]

If you do GT part-time, I'd recommend transferring to full time as soon as possible. I spoke with a recruiter in the DC area recently, and it came up that the part time programs at some schools are really looked down upon (relative to the full time programs), and mentioned Georgetown as a prime example.

This is directly contradictory to all of the other opinions I've heard. I've been told that a Georgetown degree is a Georgetown degree, that the diplomas are identical, and that both the day and evening programs carry equal weight with employers. Has anyone else heard any different?

[Da Stain]

I haven't heard differently.

Although I could see how not transferring could be a strike if you have nothing to show for your part-time years. If you do PT and work as a paralegal for 3-4 years, I don't think anyone would be very impressed. Say you were working as a legislative aide on the Hill or something similar that makes you a more desireable lawyer, then PT doesn't look like you were back-dooring your way into a T-14.

Ultimately, I think for PT not to be a mark against, one needs to be in the PT program for what it was/is truly designed for: working professionals to obtain a JD. I'll be 24 years old and I could see someone looking down on me if I graduate at 28 with 6 years of paralegal experience.

[shoebox]

If you do GT part-time, I'd recommend transferring to full time as soon as possible. I spoke with a recruiter in the DC area recently, and it came up that the part time programs at some schools are really looked down upon (relative to the full time programs), and mentioned Georgetown as a prime example.

This is directly contradictory to all of the other opinions I've heard. I've been told that a Georgetown degree is a Georgetown degree, that the diplomas are identical, and that both the day and evening programs carry equal weight with employers. Has anyone else heard any different?

I'm sure that's the case with most employers. From what I was told, some will be more acutely aware of the differences in the admissions standards from the part time to the full time program. Take it with a grain of salt (like everything else on these forums)

[thedogship]

I really haven't heard of this being too much of a problem. Especially if you are working in DC, a Georgetown degree is a Georgetown degree, i.e. it's a T14, it's the best school in the immediate region and there are a million alumni in town. I think the only way it could ever be an issue is if you are up against another Gtowner for a position, and you are part time and they are full time, all other things being equal, because they may potentially be seen as the "smarter" applicant (or obviously, if you are up against a T10er). But your quality work experience could be a huge advantage as well. An employer may be much more inclined to offer a part-timer with 4 years of great work and recs under his belt a job. I know that in DC, part-time students are not unusual (as Gtown, GW, American, George Mason, and Catholic all have part-time programs) and as long as the work you are doing part-time is worthwhile, that will usually be a good thing in an employer's eyes. I wouldn't sweat it too much. The benefits of having a Gtown degree far outweigh any potential downsides, especially if you are debating between Gtown and a lower ranked school.

[limegreen]

I know this is the wrong thread, but does anyone have an opinion on my chances- 3.2, 167?

[jas5076]

any softs or anything else limegreen? Or any great letters of rec. grade trends?

[limegreen]

I serve on a few club boards, recommendations should be strong, and very unique experience detailed in my personal statement (I think- I haven't seen or heard about anyone else who went through this). Academic addendum because I worked a lot my first two years resulting in a bad GPA, Dean's List since then (3+ semesters).

[kurguzy]

One aspect that made me decide against p/t that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that what if your at the top of your class p/t? Can you still qualify for moot court or review vs students who have a full courseload?


Yes. Read the FAQ on the GULC website.