Georgetown part-time?

[Rosstafarian]

OK, so I'm in at Georgetown part-time. I had all but ruled out part-time due to concerns about the feasibility of having enough time to study, but now I'm taking a second look. I'm thinking that if part-time is my door to the T14, then maybe it would be worth the additional agony and stress in that first year. Also, there's always the opportunity to transfer into the full-time program.

Any thoughts about GULC part-time vs., say GWU or Notre Dame? (I have a nice scholarship already on the table from ND.)

[just a girl]

I would say Georgetown part-time is probably a better option than GWU or Notre Dame. The prestige and job prospects are better than either of the other two options, and you can reduce your loan burden by working during the first year of part-time and then hopefully transferring to full-time. It also depends on your hopes for employment though-if Biglaw or something like that is your goal, georgetown should totally be it. If you want to go into public interest, or want to live in the midwest (that's where Notre Dame is, right?) then it wouldn't necessarily be an awful choice taking $$$ from ND.

[lishi]

I was thinking about this too, but I wish someone had stats on how many PT want to transfer in to the FT, and how many actually do. I'm a little afraid I would go there thinking I could transfer and not being able to.

Also if I couldn't transfer and I had to stay with PT, but I didn't have a 40 hr a week job, would firms look poorly on me and think I'm just slacking??

[Chem_PhD]

I'm in the same boat... I'm either going to GULC (PT) or GW (FT). I am also intersted in IP, which is GW's strongest point.

I have been trying to decide (with little luck) which one I'd prefer, how hard it is to transfer, how hard it is to find a meaningful job, and how many hours I could work without severely impacting my grades and life. On the other hand, I'm really curious what the BIGLaw cutoff is at GW for someone with a PhD in the hard sciences. I know that IP firms often have to look a little deeper into classes to find folks with the right technical qualifications and since GW is no slouch in the IP field, I can't imagine it will put me at that much of a disadvantage.

I guess what I'm thinking right now is that if I'm in the top of my class at GULC, they'll let me transfer without too much of a problem. However, if I'm at the bottom of my class I'd rather be at the bottom at GULC PT that in the bottom at GW. I honestly don't think there is such a difference in the two schools that you'd be in the bottom of the class at one and the top of your class at the other.

However, I am really disappointed with the prospect of not seeing my husband in the evenings for 1-4 years. He works days, so I would leave for class before he got home from work and likely get home from class after he went to bed. Not fun at all. That part really really sucks.

[Rosstafarian]

Chem, since you're so intent on IP law, it sounds like there are some more shades of gray for you, but my sense is that Georgetown's overall reputation would at the very least equal, and likely trump the value of having a specialized IP training at GW.

However, I am really disappointed with the prospect of not seeing my husband in the evenings for 1-4 years. He works days, so I would leave for class before he got home from work and likely get home from class after he went to bed. Not fun at all. That part really really sucks.

Ahh....marital relations. Sorry, no advice here. But good luck with that!

[USCtrojan86]

Ross-

From what I've gathered (and let me admit that I haven't researched this much), ND seems to have a very strong regional reputation/alumni base. If you are interested in living in that area of the country, I might suggest that you strongly consider choosing ND- especially with a nice $$$ package.

If you don't know where you want to end up, or if you have a strong preference for the East Coast, then Gtown PT (hopefully -->FT) is your best bet.

IMO, it really comes down to geography in a case like this.

[nellie06]

I thought about applying p/t and decided against it at gulc...its a risk but at 24 I want to finish asap and if you transfer to f/t you lose a valuable 1l summer to do fellowships, internships, or for the lucky few clerking at a top firm. One aspect that made me decide against p/t that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that what if your at the top of your class p/t? Can you still qualify for moot court or review vs students who have a full courseload? And what if you do extremely well? Your only option is to transfer to f/t at gulc and you can't try to transfer up to a higher ranked program. You give up a lot of flexibility to go p/t plus gulc isn't like fordham which is the only other top 25 that has p/t I'm pretty sure...at fordham transferring is so easy you sign a letter and voila your f/t for your 2l...gtown is not as accomodating. And plus law school is hard everywhere that's why ppl can transfer anywhere if they ace their 1l.Columbia get 70 percent of its grads into biglaw...that's the best percentage of any law school. So inevitably some people at t 14's will be beat out by law review garnering grads of lower ranked schools. Just things to think about.

[FLS08]

plus gulc isn't like fordham which is the only other top 25 that has p/t I'm pretty sure...

I believe GW also has a part-time program.

[Chem_PhD]

Your only option is to transfer to f/t at gulc and you can't try to transfer up to a higher ranked program.

Yeah, I'm not transferring out of DC since my husband will be employed there so that's not personally and issue for me. However, I will have to ask about law review / other accolades and the PT program. I'm not sure how that works. Good point. Would being on Law Review at GW be better than graduating from GULC?

Chem, since you're so intent on IP law, it sounds like there are some more shades of gray for you, but my sense is that Georgetown's overall reputation would at the very least equal, and likely trump the value of having a specialized IP training at GW.

Yeah, I do have an interest in science policy and public policy, as well, so I don't want to pigeon hole myself into IP prematurely. That really makes me lean towards GULC...damn I'm going to miss my husband... I think I've already decided that as long as I'm having classes at night that I will not work FT. If I'm working FT during the day and going to school at night then I'll have to study all weekend, every weekend and I'm not sure any marriage can survive four years of that. Maybe my priorities aren't cut out for BIGlaw, but I don't want to be divorced by the time I'm 30. Not worth it.

I am looking forward to visiting both schools and experiencing their general atmospheres. Of course, there is also the $$$ issue. I'm kind of hoping that GW makes me an offer I can't refuse so I don't have to worry about night classes, but that's unlikely with a 163.

How are you leaning Ross?

[lishi]

From Georgetown's website.

May part-time students participate in journals, moot court, and clinics?

Yes, all Georgetown J.D. students are eligible.

[Da Stain]

Chem:

I work for a major IP law firm (300+ lawyers, IP Only, we're kind of a big deal!).

GW lawyers outnumber GULC 2:1.

Translation: If you're sure you want to do IP, GW takes this hands down.

[DCPI23]

Sgt. are you at Finnegan? I have a really good friend who is a Legal Assistant there, and I work for an attorney who used to work there.

[philo-sophia]

can everyone send positive waves of karma philo's way? I'm waiting to hear from GTown PT and am Dying! Went to Decision a few days ago. Fingers crossed.

[philo-sophia]

just checked mail...REJECTED. ouch. Now i guess my only shot at T14 is to hit 170 in Feb and cash in on my deferral at Cornell.

[Mosel]

sorry to hear about that Philo.

Cornell is awesome, though.

ok, so I'm idiotic and confused: what exactly is deferred? I don't understand how it works.

[philo-sophia]

thanks Mosel. I was a little surprised not to at least get WL'ed at PT with a 3.3/167 ("splitter" for PT) and 3yrs of good WE at prestigious firms, but C'est la vie. Maybe they focus the PT pool on people currently working in DC? I dunno.

All i know is that my only real shot at going to any of the schools i want to go to (Texas, Vandy, USC, UCLA, Cornell) is to hit 170 on the Feb LSAT and get off a waitlist. I'll hope and pray (...and study).

Congrats to all those who did get into GTown! Fantastic school.

[philo-sophia]

ok, so I'm idiotic and confused: what exactly is deferred? I don't understand how it works.

Technically speaking, it means they set aside your app to be reconsidered later in the game when they have a better idea of the applicant pool. Realistically speaking, it means that unless something significant changes between now and then (like an LSAT score going up 3 points) one's chances aren't too great. Cornell asks that i write a letter letting them know that i'm still interested in consideration there, or else they'll assume i've made other plans. I think I'm going to use that letter as a chance to specifically say why i'm interested in Cornell and tell them that if accepted, i will attend.

[Da Stain]

Sgt. are you at Finnegan? I have a really good friend who is a Legal Assistant there, and I work for an attorney who used to work there.

No.......

[FLS08]

. . . my sense is that Georgetown's overall reputation would at the very least equal, and likely trump the value of having a specialized IP training at GW.

I agree with this statement. I have been working as a technology specialist / patent agent agent at a well-known IP firm for several years now while attending law school PT, and as far as I can tell the only benefit in going to a school that is well-known for IP is having a larger alumni network from which to draw in that particular field. The "IP training" you get in law school will generally not be a significant factor from an employer's standpoint, at least not enough to outweigh the general reputation of the school itself (Franklin Pierce is kind of an exception, but they are not the topic of discussion here). So I would give the edge to Georgetown over GW unless there are other factors at play, like $$$ or personal concerns.

Chem:

I work for a major IP law firm (300+ lawyers, IP Only, we're kind of a big deal!).

GW lawyers outnumber GULC 2:1.

Translation: If you're sure you want to do IP, GW takes this hands down.

I strongly disagree with this reasoning. There can be many reasons for there being more GW alums than Georgetown alums at Finnegan or other DC shops. For example, maybe more GW grads choose to stay in DC than Georgetown grads, or there are more GW grads who are interested in IP than Georgetown grads. The real question you should ask yourself is: if I were a hiring attorney in an IP firm who had to choose between two candidates that were identical in every respect (technical background, class standing, etc.), and one was from Georgetown and the other was from GW, who would I choose? I bet most lawyers, even in DC, would pick the Georgetown grad. Of course, it goes without saying that this effect would be greatly magnified in other markets. If you decided to move to California (the largest IP market in the country) and had an interview at a firm like Irell, MoFo, or Kirkland, you would most certainly rather have Georgetown on your resume than GW. I am not trying to knock GW--it is an excellent school. But, in my opinion, Georgetown has the clear edge in this decision.

[DCPI23]

No.......

Sorry to have annoyed you, I figured since the firm you worked for was "kinda a big deal" it might be the most highly regarded IP firm in the city, apparently not though.

[Da Stain]

No, I was just rolling my eyes because I didn't realize how obvious I had made it! No offense taken.

or example, maybe more GW grads choose to stay in DC than Georgetown grads

I'm going to disagree. If you're serious about wanting to do IP, you do it in DC. I don't think anyone will tell you otherwise.

While I understand what you're saying, I don't think GULC's overall reputation outweighs GW's reputation for IP. I think a lot of things that matter here are faculty and especially quality of the student body. For GW, I think you will have more former PTO employees, technical specialists, etc. In short, the people you will study with will be true experts in these fields. I'm not sure GULC can match that.

FWIW, we've already looked at Finnegan. Fish & Richardson, another IP heavyweight has GW grads to GULC by a 2:1 margin as well.

If you are serious about IP and know that it is what you want to do, you go to GW.

[FLS08]

I originally wasn't going to post another reply, but I decided to make a couple of points just so any readers who are interested in this topic will have a more balanced perspective.

If you're serious about wanting to do IP, you do it in DC. I don't think anyone will tell you otherwise.

First, you just lost a lot of credibility by making this statement, especially with such apparent certainty. I'm going to guess that you've been at your firm for less than 2 years. While DC does dominate certain fields in law (e.g., appellate litigation and certain regulatory practices), IP is not one of them. If you don't believe me, look at some objective sources like the American Lawyer, Chambers and Partners, and breakdowns of actual IP filings in district courts. I guess proximity to the PTO might be an advantage in patent prosecution, but even there it's only a large factor in foreign-origin work.

Second, even if we assume that DC is the hottest IP market in the country, it still doesn't prove your original point, that more lawyers at Finnegan being from GW means GW yields better IP job prospects. For that to be true, we'd have to assume that (1) similar #s of IP candidates graduate from both schools each year, (2) a higher # of GW candidates get accepted at Finnegan (or whatever firm you choose), and (3) that most of those who are accepted wind up going there. I don't have the data to speak to any of these points, but my educated guess is that point (1) is already false, simply because GW has more students with the background and desire to practice IP law, as you yourself noted in your next point:

I think a lot of things that matter here are faculty and especially quality of the student body. For GW, I think you will have more former PTO employees, technical specialists, etc. In short, the people you will study with will be true experts in these fields.

Only a very junior person would consider PTO employees and tech specs to be "experts in these fields," or anything even close. I don't know about faculty at these schools, but again I don't think it is a big deal in your job search that you took Patents with Prof. X instead of Prof. Y. However, I will agree that quality of the student body is very important, but not for the reasons you suggest. Rather, because Georgetown is generally more selective than GW, a Georgetown student will tend to have more options (even in IP) than a comparably ranked student from GW.

FWIW, we've already looked at Finnegan. Fish & Richardson, another IP heavyweight has GW grads to GULC by a 2:1 margin as well.

I really don't have the patience to click through firms' websites and look at this stuff (as I mentioned above, I think it is an exercise of uncertain value anyway), but I did notice that the two firms you looked at are boutiques, which are generally less selective than the top GP firms with strong patent groups. If you are really curious about this stuff and want a wider sample, I would look through the websites of the winner and finalists of the American Lawyer's IP Litigation Department of the Year contest (no boutiques there). I suspect you will find more Georgetown grads at all of those firms.

I personally have no skin in this game, but I wanted to help ensure that anyone who is faced with a difficult and important choice like this will have enough good information to make the decision wisely. From a career standpoint, I think an IP lawyer is more likely to regret choosing GW over Georgetown than the other way around, but maybe the difference is fairly minor in the end and all this discussion is largely moot. I would actually like to hear patentlaw (who I believe is actually an attorney) weigh in on the job prospects for IP candidates coming from these two schools. My guess is that he would say that for patent prosecution the schools are comparable (technical background is very important in this area, so law school will be weighed less anyway), but in IP litigation and transactional IP work Georgetown has a clear advantage.

[thedogship]

Just to bust a few myths here:

Transferring from part-time to full time at Gtown and GW is not a problem. There's not a minimum GPA to do it, you basically just declare that you want to do it. There's no GPA cut-off because often the schools will not even have your grades done by the start of 2nd semester.

There are part-time students at both schools who work 40 hour weeks, some that work 20 hour weeks, and some that work none. It all depends on the deals they have cut with their employers (some pay for school), their ability to manage their time, their need for a steady income, and their personal lives (family vs. lack of family). Some of the top students work 40 hours a week because they need to be so much more disciplined about their time compared to those who don't work and have a ton of free time to waste.

Also, I know people that have started as part-timers at both programs, transferred to full time, and were able to transfer to T10 schools like UVA for their second year. So starting out as a part time student does not automatically discount you from transferring to even better schools. You just have to kill your grades and get great recs. Oh and take a course over the summer to get your credits in line.

GW is really high regarded in the IP field, and GW IP students have no trouble getting great jobs in DC in the IP field. Besides the Patent Office, every large firm in town has a considerable IP practice; there's no shortage of need.

As for Gtown, it's tough to turn down any acceptance to a T14 school, especially if it's the best place you get in. I'm personally of the opinion that it's better to go to the best school you can, and that specialty concentrations (in this case, IP) don't mean as much as quality of school in the long run. If you go to GW and do IP, you'll have great options. You just may have those same options and more if you go to Gtown. People always change their mind about what they want to do once they're beyond their 1L year.

[Vasia]

^

Transferring from part-time to full time at Gtown and GW is not a problem.

Could you support this with web links sources?

[thedogship]

I'm not going to bother with searching for and posting links. Try this: I go to one of those schools. My girlfriend goes to the other. We both switched from part-time to full time with no problem at all. No minimum GPA, no hassle, no separate application other than an intent form. If you need more proof, you can come sit with me in class on Tuesday.

Or just call the Admissions office at both places and they will explain the process to you. They get those questions all the time.