FINAL: NYU ($) v. Duke ($$) v. HLS - LS22 needs your help Forum

[lawschool22]

Update 2 : Well, quite surprisingly I got into HLS off the wait list. I've calculated my estimated need-based aid, and my total COA will likely be around $165k. I know that some of you would still take Duke in this case ($79k), but for my goals (federal clerkship probably, DC biglaw, and government) HLS is the right call for me, and at a not-horrible price. I wanted to update the thread so that future choosers will have the final information. Thanks to everyone for your help through this process.

Old post:
I can finally post a real "Which School" thread. All scholarships below are post-negotiation.

• -Schools I am considering: NYU and Duke
  
  -Scholarship awards: NYU ($25k, no increase), Duke ($81k, up from $72k)
  
  -Total debt at repayment: NYU ($154k), Duke ($79k)
  
  -How you will be financing your COA: Entirely through loans. These COA's already take into account any other sources of income.
  
  -Where you are from and where you want to work: From the Midwest, but my primary goal is DC. I would take NYC and Chicago as well.
  
  -Your general career goals: DC biglaw (litigation) immediately after graduation, with the hope of moving into federal government after a few years in biglaw (3-5 years probably, depending on available opportunities).
  
  -Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 173/3.6
  
  -How many times you have taken the LSAT: Once
  
  -Other info: Waitlisted at Harvard, (had JS1). Still waiting on Columbia and Cornell. Rejected at SLS. In at GULC but no offer as of yet. Didn't apply to Y or B. WL'd at all other t14. Withdrew NU. Have pretty decent WE.

LST Comparision: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/nyu/duke/


Thank you to anyone who has thoughts!

[lecsa]

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[FluffMonster]

You're estimated debt at repayment is wayyy below the mark, imo. I got 81k from Duke and calculated ~175k at repayment.

[lawschool22]

You're estimated debt at repayment is wayyy below the mark, imo. I got 81k from Duke and calculated ~175k at repayment.

Like I said my numbers include income from various sources, such as rental income, selling a car, estimated net earnings from SA, etc.

ETA: I am using the spreadsheet I made that's posted in this forum and I think it's solid. But if there is something off in that calculator let me know - I want these to be accurate haha

[FluffMonster]

You're estimated debt at repayment is wayyy below the mark, imo. I got 81k from Duke and calculated ~175k at repayment.

Like I said my numbers include income from various sources, such as rental income, selling a car, estimated net earnings from SA, etc.

ETA: I am using the spreadsheet I made that's posted in this forum and I think it's solid. But if there is something off in that calculator let me know - I want these to be accurate haha

Gotcha. I was confused by "entirely through loans" and "other sources of income". Also, I didn't count SA income, because I would rather be pleasantly surprised.

[cotiger]

I vote Duke.

That's a minimum $120k cost differential by the time you've paid down all your loans.

If you can get them to match NU, then double Duke.

[lawschool22]

You're estimated debt at repayment is wayyy below the mark, imo. I got 81k from Duke and calculated ~175k at repayment.

Like I said my numbers include income from various sources, such as rental income, selling a car, estimated net earnings from SA, etc.

ETA: I am using the spreadsheet I made that's posted in this forum and I think it's solid. But if there is something off in that calculator let me know - I want these to be accurate haha

Gotcha. I was confused by "entirely through loans" and "other sources of income". Also, I didn't count SA income, because I would rather be pleasantly surprised.

Yep no worries. That's what I was trying to say when I said that the COA already takes other income into account. It works either way, calculate COA w/o income, then list all sources of income, or calculate COA with income included already, which I like because it makes the COA lower due to less interest

Eta: I forgot my numbers also do not include the schools' health insurance as I'll be covered on my family's plan.

[Cobretti]

Do you have any existing ties to DC? If not I'd probably lean Duke given your goals.

[lawschool22]

Do you have any existing ties to DC? If not I'd probably lean Duke given your goals.

No real strong ties to DC. I have some connections to the city via various family friends, etc., but nothing I would consider real ties from a firm's perspective.

[BigBlackTruck]

I'm just a 0L, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd take Duke.

$100k is a tremendous amount of money (think of all the things you could get for $100k), and I don't think NYU is worth it over Duke. Not to mention Duke sends the highest % to DC (I'll concede that it could be self-selection). The difference in employment numbers is marginal compared to that $100k.

Not sure about NU, but I still think Duke would be better for DC.

[ZGr88n]

0L here- but my vote is Duke given the current circumstances.

[coolbean2013]

0L here- but my vote is Duke given the current circumstances.

[Otunga]

Voting Duke as well. Solid enough numbers and reasonable price given your purposes. Additionally, cheaper living expenses and superior weather.

[lawschool22]

Thanks for all the input so far. I am surprised at the 100% Duke number. Hopefully NYU increases my offer to make things a bit more interesting

[jk148706]

Have fun at Duke ls22.

[iamgeorgebush]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k, imo. plus, who wants to live in durham, NC!

it really is a close call, though.

[jk148706]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k

Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't see this. NYU placement in DC is worth $96,000 more than Duke?? (0l here, so I don't know just sincerely asking)

[PrideandGlory1776]

I've spoke with 4 people from Cornell with worse LSAT numbers than you and same GPA who have gotten 130k, 135k, 150k, and 165k respectively. So make your case big time at Cornell and you will be golden. Also if your really concerned about money sit out a cycle and ED Northwestern next year for the free 150k. In any case, for now Duke and Northwestern are a toss up cause NU offered just enough to offset cost of living difference and they place equally well so it's just preference it's one of the few matchups that are literally so equal it's tough to even split hairs there numbers are so close it's really up to you because they're no substantial difference between them at all. NYU no 25k gosh no way don't take on the debt. Duke or NU TCR

[DrStudMuffin]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k, imo. plus, who wants to live in durham, NC!

it really is a close call, though.

This is a bad post. There is no data that suggests getting DC biglaw is easier from NYU than it is from Duke. In fact, the ABA data suggests it's the other way around with Duke sending a much higher percentage of graduates to DC. Sure, there are some self-selection issues there, but it definitely doesn't support NYU being better. For biglaw in general, yes NYU is better. But the available data indicates that this is not the case for OP's target market.

And as for who would want to live in Durham - I would much rather live there than NYC. But that's entirely personal and shouldn't be a decisive factor in choosing a law school.

LS22 - I would vote for Duke here. Though definitely try to get them to match NU.

[09042014]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k

Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't see this. NYU placement in DC is worth $96,000 more than Duke?? (0l here, so I don't know just sincerely asking)

I'm not sure if there is even 1 dollar worth more placement.

The choice is either Duke and Northwestern. They are peer schools. Neither place particularly well in either DC.

I'd go Northwestern because are MidBestern. First of all, midwest is best. Second, if you end up wanting to stay midBest NU is better. Third, it opens up Chicago, while Duke opens up nothing.

There is a 3/4 shot your grades aren't going to be high enough to even risk bidding on DC at OCI. Duke and NU are peers in NYC. And NU beats it at Duke.

Unless you love Duke (why would you? Duke is in the middle of BFE), NU is the objective best choice here.

/Proud NW grad / DC BIGLOLYER.

[lawschool22]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k

Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't see this. NYU placement in DC is worth $96,000 more than Duke?? (0l here, so I don't know just sincerely asking)

I'm not sure if there is even 1 dollar worth more placement.

The choice is either Duke and Northwestern. They are peer schools. Neither place particularly well in either DC.

I'd go Northwestern because are MidBestern. First of all, midwest is best. Second, if you end up wanting to stay midBest NU is better. Third, it opens up Chicago, while Duke opens up nothing.

There is a 3/4 shot your grades aren't going to be high enough to even risk bidding on DC at OCI. Duke and NU are peers in NYC. And NU beats it at Duke.

Unless you love Duke (why would you? Duke is in the middle of BFE), NU is the objective best choice here.

/Proud NW grad / DC BIGLOLYER.

Do you really need top 25% (outside of HYS) to get DC? Genuinely curious.

[iamgeorgebush]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k, imo. plus, who wants to live in durham, NC!

it really is a close call, though.

This is a bad post. There is no data that suggests getting DC biglaw is easier from NYU than it is from Duke. In fact, the ABA data suggests it's the other way around with Duke sending a much higher percentage of graduates to DC. Sure, there are some self-selection issues there, but it definitely doesn't support NYU being better. For biglaw in general, yes NYU is better. But the available data indicates that this is not the case for OP's target market.

And as for who would want to live in Durham - I would much rather live there than NYC. But that's entirely personal and shouldn't be a decisive factor in choosing a law school.

LS22 - I would vote for Duke here. Though definitely try to get them to match NU.

highlighted the important part. according to LST, duke sends 13.8% of its grads to DC, while NYU sends 7.7% of its grads. considering self-selection, i don't think that's a meaningful difference. if it were something like 8% v. 20%, then duke would probably come out on top IMO, but this is not very significant.

anyway, only 2.7% are underemployed at NYU v. 11.6% underemployed at duke, and NYU does tend to send its grads to more prestigious firms than duke. i also think NYC would be a better place to live than durham, NC, and to the extent that it matters at all, maybe you'd be able to score an SDNY externship. i don't know whether externships actually lead to anything significant, but maybe that would help you score a clerkship?

if i were in your position, ls22, that would be significant enough to warrant paying an extra 96k. 96k might seem like a lot at first, but 15 years down the line it will be a distant memory. i realize that is not a popular perspective at topdashlawdashschoolsdotcom, but so be it.

eta: yes, duke c/o 2012 had a higher percentage of grads obtaining clerkships, but that was a very low year for NYU. usually the difference has only been a couple points.

[09042014]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k

Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't see this. NYU placement in DC is worth $96,000 more than Duke?? (0l here, so I don't know just sincerely asking)

I'm not sure if there is even 1 dollar worth more placement.

The choice is either Duke and Northwestern. They are peer schools. Neither place particularly well in either DC.

I'd go Northwestern because are MidBestern. First of all, midwest is best. Second, if you end up wanting to stay midBest NU is better. Third, it opens up Chicago, while Duke opens up nothing.

There is a 3/4 shot your grades aren't going to be high enough to even risk bidding on DC at OCI. Duke and NU are peers in NYC. And NU beats it at Duke.

Unless you love Duke (why would you? Duke is in the middle of BFE), NU is the objective best choice here.

/Proud NW grad / DC BIGLOLYER.

Do you really need top 25% (outside of HYS) to get DC? Genuinely curious.

It's not absolutely needed but you don't want to waste a ton of bids there if you aren't. You greatly increase your strike out chances.

[lawschool22]

Interesting, thanks. Not looking forward to the bidding process lol.

[lawschool22]

i voted nyu. the increased odds of getting that DC biglaw lit you want make it worth the 96k, imo. plus, who wants to live in durham, NC!

it really is a close call, though.

This is a bad post. There is no data that suggests getting DC biglaw is easier from NYU than it is from Duke. In fact, the ABA data suggests it's the other way around with Duke sending a much higher percentage of graduates to DC. Sure, there are some self-selection issues there, but it definitely doesn't support NYU being better. For biglaw in general, yes NYU is better. But the available data indicates that this is not the case for OP's target market.

And as for who would want to live in Durham - I would much rather live there than NYC. But that's entirely personal and shouldn't be a decisive factor in choosing a law school.

LS22 - I would vote for Duke here. Though definitely try to get them to match NU.

highlighted the important part. according to LST, duke sends 13.8% of its grads to DC, while NYU sends 7.7% of its grads. considering self-selection, i don't think that's a meaningful difference. if it were something like 8% v. 20%, then duke would probably come out on top IMO, but this is not very significant.

anyway, only 2.7% are underemployed at NYU v. 11.6% underemployed at duke, and NYU does tend to send its grads to more prestigious firms than duke. i also think NYC would be a better place to live than durham, NC, and to the extent that it matters at all, maybe you'd be able to score an SDNY externship. i don't know whether externships actually lead to anything significant, but maybe that would help you score a clerkship?

if i were in your position, ls22, that would be significant enough to warrant paying an extra 96k. 96k might seem like a lot at first, but 15 years down the line it will be a distant memory. i realize that is not a popular perspective at topdashlawdashschoolsdotcom, but so be it.

eta: yes, duke c/o 2012 had a higher percentage of grads obtaining clerkships, but that was a very low year for NYU. usually the difference has only been a couple points.

Thanks George. I appreciate having another perspective to consider and you make some interesting points.