Int. Law... Don't worry, I know why and what I want to do! Forum

Zambo · Post by **Zambo** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:17 pm

Hey all, I'm a little new here so please excuse any faults or naiveness. From what I've read on these boards, there is a slight stigma against international law due to its vagueness and lack of specificity. Well, unlike most I know I specificially want to work in Human Rights/Social Justice Law, and more specifically working to provide water to the peoples of this world. Before I get laughed at for being some undergrad idealist, allow me to say I have wanted to do this for my entire life, have lots of political and NGO experience, and am extremely dedicated to fixing what I see as a massive injustice in our modern world.

That being said, I'm not dead set on a certain medium for change. I do feel strongly though that having a strong basis in law and public policy will have a positive impact on my long-term goals.

Thus, I was wondering if ya'll could point me in the right direction towards schools with good international law programs, faculty, reasources, externships, ect. Or just any other held/advice you can provide me with would be much appreciated! Maybe setting my goals high, but I'm shooting for a t14 school - with the exception of HYS as theres no way I'm getting in them haha

Some quick things about me;
-Junior, major in speech communicaiton with an emphasis in argumentation and persuasion
-minors in political science and psychology
-nationally ranked debator
-speechwriter for numerous mayors and locally elected officials
-teaching a college course next semester
-TA'd for a class this semester
-3.55 gpa
-lsat pt at 165, shooting for over 170 by the october test

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks for the help!

Ruxin1 · Post by **Ruxin1** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:22 pm

Zambo wrote:Hey all, I'm a little new here so please excuse any faults or naiveness. From what I've read on these boards, there is a slight stigma against international law due to its vagueness and lack of specificity. Well, unlike most I know I specificially want to work in Human Rights/Social Justice Law, and more specifically working to provide water to the peoples of this world. Before I get laughed at for being some undergrad idealist, allow me to say I have wanted to do this for my entire life, have lots of political and NGO experience, and am extremely dedicated to fixing what I see as a massive injustice in our modern world.

That being said, I'm not dead set on a certain medium for change. I do feel strongly though that having a strong basis in law and public policy will have a positive impact on my long-term goals.

Thus, I was wondering if ya'll could point me in the right direction towards schools with good international law programs, faculty, reasources, externships, ect. Or just any other held/advice you can provide me with would be much appreciated! Maybe setting my goals high, but I'm shooting for a t14 school - with the exception of HYS as theres no way I'm getting in them haha

Some quick things about me;
-Junior, major in speech communicaiton with an emphasis in argumentation and persuasion
-minors in political science and psychology
-nationally ranked debator
-speechwriter for numerous mayors and locally elected officials
-teaching a college course next semester
-TA'd for a class this semester
-3.55 gpa
-lsat pt at 165, shooting for over 170 by the october test

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks for the help!

Just go get a job at world vision breh

Rahviveh · Post by **Rahviveh** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:25 pm

You need a 170+ to crack the top-14. Wrong forum.

Also I'm not sure how a law degree helps bring water to Africa. I'm sure there are more direct ways to accomplish that goal.

ManOfTheMinute · Post by **ManOfTheMinute** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:27 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:You need a 170+ to crack the top-14. Wrong forum.

Also I'm not sure how a law degree helps bring water to Africa. I'm sure there are more direct ways to accomplish that goal.

Such as, a large water bottle.

Or those self-filling water bottles.

ManoftheHour · Post by **ManoftheHour** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:27 pm

ED UVA

quiver · Post by **quiver** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Zambo wrote:From what I've read on these boards, there is a slight stigma against international law due to its vagueness and lack of specificity.

That's part of it but the other part is that these jobs are absurdly difficult to get. Normally, they go to top-of-the-class T14 (mostly YSH) people. Your GPA isn't getting you into YSH; adjust your career goals or don't go to law school.

Zambo wrote:Some quick things about me;
-Junior, major in speech communicaiton with an emphasis in argumentation and persuasion

An emphasis in argumentation and persuasion? What the hell?

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:31 pm

You don't need a law degree to donate some wells dude

It's not like there's a body of law that is somehow preventing you

From giving people free water bro

Ruxin1 · Post by **Ruxin1** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:36 pm

here you go bro:

http://donate.worldvision.org/OA_HTML/x ... p?item=154

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:41 pm

while these non-profit/public service qualifications will help as "softs" (to introduce you to some tls lingo) to get you IN to law school, be wary of expecting too much for what they imply when you get out. you will encounter heavy loaded cynicism on this thread towards "international" or "human rights" lawyers, and it is accurately derived from the relative dearth of paid legal positions in these fields at an entry level, with those that exist reserved primarily for yale grads. That said, opportunities are out there if you make the right choices so don't give up or be discouraged by all the snarky ones (love you tls'ers <3).

The best shot is probably not to apply in the fall, but rather;

1) get your GPA up over 3.6 senior year
2) study for the LSAT after you graduate, take a class over the summer, get well over 170
3) focus next fall instead on getting a fullbright scholarship or a similar grant (applications are usually due in september or october of senior year)
3) if these don't pan out, work the year you get out of school in one of these fields to see what it actually means. I know people that have done great work in microfinance, african peacebuilding network, and other entities, and often it gives them a clearer & more realistic perspective. alternatively, work in law.
4) follow TLS next cycle but apply the following fall 2014 with a PI focused application, hit NYU RTK, Georgetown global law/pils, ect., Duke/Berkeley maybe, Columbia, and if you hit 175, yale, for international law.

you don't need to go straight to law school next year. in fact, its generally better not to. you won't be able to really apply yourself to the LSAT as a senior student (unless you go to an easy school or you aren't writing a thesis) anyway.

best of luck!

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:43 pm

Also you're a junior in college and don't have "have lots of political and NGO experience" duder

md22 · Post by **md22** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:47 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:You need a 170+ to crack the top-14. Wrong forum.

Also I'm not sure how a law degree helps bring water to Africa. I'm sure there are more direct ways to accomplish that goal.
Such as, a large water bottle.

Or those self-filling water bottles.

md22 · Post by **md22** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:Also you're a junior in college and don't have "have lots of political and NGO experience" duder

The truth strikes again.

timbs4339 · Post by **timbs4339** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:56 pm

Flame on!

dissonance1848 · Post by **dissonance1848** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:56 pm

OP, if you really care about alleviating suffering in the third world, and agree with utilitarianism, you will become a successful rapacious capitalist in the first world, and then bequest that capital to the third world, where the return on said capital shall be highest.

So..... don't go to law school, go into business and try to kill it, or do a post-bacc pre-health care professional route, save much of your pre-tax income, and then bequest it......

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:58 pm

Welcome to TLS

sinfiery · Post by **sinfiery** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:59 pm

Zambo wrote: Some quick things about me;
-Junior, major in speech communicaiton with an emphasis in argumentation and persuasion
-minors in political science and psychology
-nationally ranked debator
-speechwriter for numerous mayors and locally elected officials
-teaching a college course next semester
-TA'd for a class this semester
-3.55 gpa
-lsat pt at 165, shooting for over 170 by the october test

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks for the help!

sounds like you should become a politician

09042014 · Post by **09042014** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:22 pm

Anything is possible at Zambo com

hephaestus · Post by **hephaestus** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:25 pm

md22 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also you're a junior in college and don't have "have lots of political and NGO experience" duder
The truth strikes again.

Zambo · Post by **Zambo** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:35 pm

Alright alright allow to clear a few things up here before the bash war continues! ha When I say international law I don't want to work for the ICC or World Bank or anything of that nature really. I more so want to use the skills garnered from ls and apply that to fighting an injustice I see in the world. I've been looking into joint degree programs where along with a JD I would work towards a masters of public policy or something along those lines. As of now, I don't see myself prosecuting war criminals or "dictators" for their innate corruption which makes clean water inaccessible, as a poster said earlier. In fact, I'm not sure I even see myself in a formal lawyer postion. I'm interested in politics and public policy and while non-profits are doing a lot of good, I want to allocate funds to build 10,000 wells, not just 10 (just an example, don't attack me for statistical fallacies). Almost all politicians are or were lawyers, and while I don't necessarily see myself as a politician, I do think policy, or lobbying, or something along that route is the real way to fully eradicate the problem - not just give them water bottles.

A couple responses;
Inregards to the "lots of experience" - I was speaking in terms relative to other undergrads. I currently speechwrite for two sitting mayors and am working on stump speeches for three seperarte state legislator campaigns for the upcoming '16 election. I've interned at Not for Sale, Think Together, and Invisible Children and have a paid internship lined up at World Vision this summer. I don't know one undergrad whose resume looks like that. So yes, I believe, as well as my pre-law advisor, that I do have "lots" of experience when compared to other undergrads. I'm sorry you got hung up on one word duder.

In regards to my emphasis , I primarily study logic, reasoning, and rhetorical theory if that helps.

That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social Justice Law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:40 pm

Welcome to TLS

Rahviveh · Post by **Rahviveh** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:41 pm

Zambo wrote:Alright alright allow to clear a few things up here before the bash war continues! ha When I say international law I don't want to work for the ICC or World Bank or anything of that nature really. I more so want to use the skills garnered from ls and apply that to fighting an injustice I see in the world. I've been looking into joint degree programs where along with a JD I would work towards a masters of public policy or something along those lines. As of now, I don't see myself prosecuting war criminals or "dictators" for their innate corruption which makes clean water inaccessible, as a poster said earlier. In fact, I'm not sure I even see myself in a formal lawyer postion. I'm interested in politics and public policy and while non-profits are doing a lot of good, I want to allocate funds to build 10,000 wells, not just 10 (just an example, don't attack me for statistical fallacies). Almost all politicians are or were lawyers, and while I don't necessarily see myself as a politician, I do think policy, or lobbying, or something along that route is the real way to fully eradicate the problem - not just give them water bottles.

A couple responses;
Inregards to the "lots of experience" - I was speaking in terms relative to other undergrads. I currently speechwrite for two sitting mayors and am working on stump speeches for three seperarte state legislator campaigns for the upcoming '16 election. I've interned at Not for Sale, Think Together, and Invisible Children and have a paid internship lined up at World Vision this summer. I don't know one undergrad whose resume looks like that. So yes, I believe, as well as my pre-law advisor, that I do have "lots" of experience when compared to other undergrads. I'm sorry you got hung up on one word duder.

In regards to my emphasis , I primarily study logic, reasoning, and rhetorical theory if that helps.

That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social justice law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!

Have you looked into the MPA/ID program at Harvard?

hephaestus · Post by **hephaestus** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:49 pm

Law seems like a bad fit for your goals. The sort of work it sounds like you want to do is better accomplished by getting an MPA or MPP. The number of policy jobs that require a JD are extremely small and competitive. Additionally, the JD may lock you out of the jobs that typically goes to MPAs because employers may be apprehensive about hiring someone overqualified.

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:52 pm

Zambo wrote:
That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social justice law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!

OP, see my earlier post for a few options with good programs. I would not go to pepperdine or washington if I wanted the JD to have the significance you hope to glean from it. In fact, based on what you believe a JD capable of leading to (lobbying, politics, ect.), you are speaking exclusively of prestige degrees, so aim high. For joint programs, UCLA does have a joint JD/MPP program, but I haven't heard the greatest things. NYU and Columbia are your best reasonable option for "international" law/joint degree work; I know Columbia has a joint program with princeton's WW school, and you can also get an international LLM with various european universities if that interests you.

also what the other poster said about getting the MPP or MPA first (johns hopkins has a good international program, also kennedy school), working, and applying for your JD once you know exactly what you can do with it

and for the record, I think building wells is cool and I support you!

edit: for everyone saying "get a masters", the one word of caution i would have is that those masters are most often unfunded, which means assuming more debt without THAT many more immediate prospects than a BA/BS.

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:56 pm

Welcome to TLS

Kalinda · Post by **Kalinda** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:59 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Zambo wrote:
That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social justice law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!
OP, see my earlier post for a few options with good programs. I would not go to pepperdine or washington if I wanted the JD to have the significance you hope to glean from it. In fact, based on what you believe a JD capable of leading to (lobbying, politics, ect.), you are speaking exclusively of prestige degrees, so aim high. For joint programs, UCLA does have a joint JD/MPP program, but I haven't heard the greatest things. NYU and Columbia are your best reasonable option for "international" law/joint degree work; I know Columbia has a joint program with princeton's WW school, and you can also get an international LLM with various european universities if that interests you.

also what the other poster said about getting the MPP or MPA first (johns hopkins has a good international program, also kennedy school), working, and applying for your JD once you know exactly what you can do with it

and for the record, I think building wells is cool and I support you!

edit: for everyone saying "get a masters", the one word of caution i would have is that those masters are most often unfunded, which means assuming more debt without THAT many more immediate prospects than a BA/BS.

This. I also caution about where to get a Masters if you decide to go that route, they are expensive but if you go to the right school it will be worth it. The above poster mentioned some great options and I also think you should check out the Fletcher School at Tufts, they have an AMAZING program with strong job prospects.