Re: UVAs School Funded Positions

[NoodleyOne]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

[WahooLaw24]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

Right, I think they're killing two birds with one stone here. It helps their numbers while also helping out about a tenth of the class. While it's certainly not a desireable spot to be in, the money will allow you to feed yourself and maybe make minimum payments for a year while you gain experience and continue to network and hunt for a job. Certainly better than the notion that students were stuffing envelopes and doing research for $12/hour.

[kingjones59]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

Right, I think they're killing two birds with one stone here. It helps their numbers while also helping out about a tenth of the class. While it's certainly not a desireable spot to be in, the money will allow you to feed yourself and maybe make minimum payments for a year while you gain experience and continue to network and hunt for a job. Certainly better than the notion that students were stuffing envelopes and doing research for $12/hour.

Don't even need to make minimum payments, as these fellowships qualify for uvas LRAP. If the figures reported by UVA are true, these school funded positions do not equal eventual unemployment as is often suggested here

[North]

This was more reassuring than I expected.

[sinfiery]

Props to UVA for having the balls to even do this study. Better than expected by far from my expectations.

[Real Madrid]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

Right, I think they're killing two birds with one stone here. It helps their numbers while also helping out about a tenth of the class. While it's certainly not a desireable spot to be in, the money will allow you to feed yourself and maybe make minimum payments for a year while you gain experience and continue to network and hunt for a job. Certainly better than the notion that students were stuffing envelopes and doing research for $12/hour.

It's actually closer to 1/5 of their students than 1/10. And I don't find this at all reassuring. This totally explains how their PI score went from around 7% to around 24% - total bullshit, though it looked legitimate even on LST. In this article, they actually detail the problem - namely, that PI organizations often don't have the resources to hire the students they like. No problem. UVa just provides those resources for a year to artificially inflate their unemployment score and their PI score.

Now, I'm just a stupid 0L, but unless I'm mistaken, the problem here is that many of these students have already missed out on desirable outcomes by not getting a job upon graduation. Big law, for instance, is (I think) almost certainly out of the picture. They may get jobs at small law firms, but I would be willing to bet those jobs would still land in the "underemployed" category in those rayiner graphs.

These positions are preferable to just flat unemployment, but still a black eye on the face of a T14, and the percentage of students participating is quite embarrassing.

[sinfiery]

namely, that PI organizations often don't have the resources to hire the students they like. No problem. UVa just provides those resources for a year to artificially inflate their unemployment score and their PI score.

In the Yale threads regarding the same issue, PI focused or atleast PI informed students mentioned how this would be an absolutely desired situation to be in.

As for why you assume the sole purpose here is to game the rankings, I'm guessing you feel the same of Yale's school funded jobs?

I do agree that there is a very real chance these are not desirable jobs, but because of how shit the employment data is, we aren't able to distinguish between one JD required job and another.

[kingjones59]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

Right, I think they're killing two birds with one stone here. It helps their numbers while also helping out about a tenth of the class. While it's certainly not a desireable spot to be in, the money will allow you to feed yourself and maybe make minimum payments for a year while you gain experience and continue to network and hunt for a job. Certainly better than the notion that students were stuffing envelopes and doing research for $12/hour.

It's actually closer to 1/5 of their students than 1/10. And I don't find this at all reassuring. This totally explains how their PI score went from around 7% to around 24% - total bullshit, though it looked legitimate even on LST. In this article, they actually detail the problem - namely, that PI organizations often don't have the resources to hire the students they like. No problem. UVa just provides those resources for a year to artificially inflate their unemployment score and their PI score.

Now, I'm just a stupid 0L, but unless I'm mistaken, the problem here is that many of these students have already missed out on desirable outcomes by not getting a job upon graduation. Big law, for instance, is (I think) almost certainly out of the picture. They may get jobs at small law firms, but I would be willing to bet those jobs would still land in the "underemployed" category in those rayiner graphs.

These positions are preferable to just flat unemployment, but still a black eye on the face of a T14, and the percentage of students participating is quite embarrassing.

The school funded rate is actually 15 % for the c/o 2012. And for those who want to go into PI, BigLaw is not a desirable outcome. Atleast 80 percent of this group turns into full time JD required jobs . They get positions that entry level lawyers are not usually qualified for and uva pays their loans while they do their fellowship. For someone who wants to so PI, I don't see how this is not a desirable outcome

[UVAIce]

Just saw this and figured I may as well post it and spark discussion.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... wships.htm

An interesting part:

The Law School provides ongoing career counseling aimed at securing post-fellowship employment tailored to each graduate’s career objectives. A recent follow-up study of the Class of 2010 found post-fellowship employment information for 35 of the 40 fellows. All 35 are now employed in permanent, full-time positions — 32 as lawyers, two in jobs for which a J.D. was an advantage, and one in a position that did not require a law degree.

Also, the fellowship provides a salary of 30k for the year (not huge dough, but not nothing). Does this calm some of the terror about UVA's school funded positions? I'll admit, I wish they were more transparent about the whole process, but it doesn't seem like it's entirely trying to game the numbers.

Right, I think they're killing two birds with one stone here. It helps their numbers while also helping out about a tenth of the class. While it's certainly not a desireable spot to be in, the money will allow you to feed yourself and maybe make minimum payments for a year while you gain experience and continue to network and hunt for a job. Certainly better than the notion that students were stuffing envelopes and doing research for $12/hour.

It's actually closer to 1/5 of their students than 1/10. And I don't find this at all reassuring. This totally explains how their PI score went from around 7% to around 24% - total bullshit, though it looked legitimate even on LST. In this article, they actually detail the problem - namely, that PI organizations often don't have the resources to hire the students they like. No problem. UVa just provides those resources for a year to artificially inflate their unemployment score and their PI score.

Now, I'm just a stupid 0L, but unless I'm mistaken, the problem here is that many of these students have already missed out on desirable outcomes by not getting a job upon graduation. Big law, for instance, is (I think) almost certainly out of the picture. They may get jobs at small law firms, but I would be willing to bet those jobs would still land in the "underemployed" category in those rayiner graphs.

These positions are preferable to just flat unemployment, but still a black eye on the face of a T14, and the percentage of students participating is quite embarrassing.

You love to hate UVA bro. First, you are obviously incapable of doing math. Second, you really have no idea what a "desirable" outcome is for the average law student. There are a lot of students here who do not want to go the big law route and you might be surprised to find out that a number of those students have grades above median. The problem is that with all the hiring freezes in government and lack of funding for private public service groups it is tough to find anyone with a spot open. Plus, funding for these organizations doesn't always neatly match up with when people graduate from law school. People who receive fellowships and are actually "on the job" have a much better chance of snatching openings when they do occur. To be honest, I think programs like UVA's are substantively different from programs like GWU and that what UVA is trying to do is adapt to new legal market. The numbers seem to indicate that it worked.

[Real Madrid]

The school funded rate is actually 15 % for the c/o 2012. And for those who want to go into PI, BigLaw is not a desirable outcome. Atleast 80 percent of this group turns into full time JD required jobs . They get positions that entry level lawyers are not usually qualified for and uva pays their loans while they do their fellowship. For someone who wants to so PI, I don't see how this is not a desirable outcome

Ok, so it's 15% now - last year it was 17+%. Regardless, it's the highest among all T14s.

The problem here, first of all, is that you are assuming that these people want to do PI. I just checked LST and the C/O 2009 sent 4% into PI. Four percent. Last year (C/O 2011), UVa sent 24% into PI, thanks largely to their school-funded jobs. Doesn't it seem a bit odd to you that - assuming, like you do, that school-funded kids all want PI jobs - there has been a six-fold increase in PI-interested students that has coincided with perhaps the worst legal market in history? Quite a coincidence, I'd say.

Going by the stats alone, it seems like those that go through the program do "well," if you judge solely based on number of JD-required jobs. But unless I missed it, that article doesn't say what those JD-required jobs are. A firm with five lawyers that pays 45k a year may well be a JD-required job, but it's not gonna pay the bills and almost certainly isn't gonna qualify for UVa's LRAP.

I guess one year of dept repayment is better than no years of debt repayment (though I wonder if UVa requires 10-year participation in PI for those payments to stand), but I think this is a pretty blatant attempt at gaming the rankings, much like their hilarious yield protecting strategies (http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/does-anybody-ever-turn-down-uva-law-or-are-they-just-gaming-their-yield-rate/). Look, my issue is that going by USNWR's employment "numbers," UVa apparently has better employment prospects than any other school in the country. But when you actually boil the numbers down - as rayiner has done - UVa actually places near the bottom of the T14 when it comes to un-/underemployment.

First, you are obviously incapable of doing math.

How is 17% not closer to 20% than it is to 10%? Who taught you math?

[kingjones59]

The school funded rate is actually 15 % for the c/o 2012. And for those who want to go into PI, BigLaw is not a desirable outcome. Atleast 80 percent of this group turns into full time JD required jobs . They get positions that entry level lawyers are not usually qualified for and uva pays their loans while they do their fellowship. For someone who wants to so PI, I don't see how this is not a desirable outcome

Ok, so it's 15% now - last year it was 17+%. Regardless, it's the highest among all T14s.

The problem here, first of all, is that you are assuming that these people want to do PI. I just checked LST and the C/O 2009 sent 4% into PI. Four percent. Last year (C/O 2011), UVa sent 24% into PI, thanks largely to their school-funded jobs. Doesn't it seem a bit odd to you that - assuming, like you do, that school-funded kids all want PI jobs - there has been a six-fold increase in PI-interested students that has coincided with perhaps the worst legal market in history? Quite a coincidence, I'd say.

Going by the stats alone, it seems like those that go through the program do "well," if you judge solely based on number of JD-required jobs. But unless I missed it, that article doesn't say what those JD-required jobs are. A firm with five lawyers that pays 45k a year may well be a JD-required job, but it's not gonna pay the bills and almost certainly isn't gonna qualify for UVa's LRAP.

I guess one year of dept repayment is better than no years of debt repayment (though I wonder if UVa requires 10-year participation in PI for those payments to stand), but I think this is a pretty blatant attempt at gaming the rankings, much like their hilarious yield protecting strategies (http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/does-anybody-ever-turn-down-uva-law-or-are-they-just-gaming-their-yield-rate/).

First, you are obviously incapable of doing math.

How is 17% not closer to 20% than it is to 10%? Who taught you math?

Because its not 17%, its 15%. And that 17% was during the worst legal market in history, where some of their peer schools thought it better to just leave 20% of their class flat out unemployed (boalt). And maybe you didnt read the article, but it does say what kind of jobs they got after their fellowships- public defender, IP litigator, federal clerkships....all jobs that others would kill to have upon graduation.

If UVA really wanted to just "game the rankings", just hire all these kids to do doc review and then never talk to them again. That is clearly not what they are doing however.

[Real Madrid]

Because its not 17%, its 15%. And that 17% was during the worst legal market in history, where some of their peer schools thought it better to just leave 20% of their class flat out unemployed (boalt). And maybe you didnt read the article, but it does say what kind of jobs they got after their fellowships- public defender, IP litigator, federal clerkships....all jobs that others would kill to have upon graduation.

If UVA really wanted to just "game the rankings", just hire all these kids to do doc review and then never talk to them again. That is clearly not what they are doing however.

Yes, I just glanced through the article and notice they do a good job detailing the most successful of the students employed by the school throughout the history of the program. Some worked on the staff of public defender offices, one worked as an IP litigator, and one got a federal clerkship. Great.

Can you please try and explain to me why UVa has gone from sending 4% of its grads into PI to 24% in the span of two years? Why the sudden focus on PI?

And, to be fair, I totally agree with you regarding other schools like Boalt, NU, Duke, Cornell, et. al leaving their graduates unemployed, especially considering how much they charge for tuition. But the disingenuousness of schools like NYU and UVa and the lengths they go to to actually cover up the bad outcomes of their students is equally (if not more) annoying.

[kingjones59]

Because law school is no longer an automatic ticket to big law and wealth? Because private firms aren't hiring at the rate they used to? Because those who go into law now do so because they actually really want to practice law?

[Tom Joad]

Because lots of law students start out wanting to do PI and stick it out if there is a realistic chance for them to get a job.

[sinfiery]

In rayners underemployed/unemployed analysis, he takes an overly conservative approach which deems school funded jobs and many other types of employment as not desirable.

This is wholly due to the absolutely terrible employment data in these categories along with the aforementioned conservative approach.


This new study, that UVA did voluntarily, (the only school who has I believe) along with Elsons scavengering of Harvard and Yale's school funded outcomes overrides rayners analysis with new found data that seems to indicate that atleast at these 3 schools, he may have been too conservative in light of this new data set.

Are there still doubts? Yes.

[Renne Walker]

But the disingenuousness of schools like NYU and UVa and the lengths they go to to actually cover up the bad outcomes of their students is equally (if not more) annoying.

Aside from UVA, please note that Chicago, Cornell and Georgetown are all higher than NYU (tied with Yale). In better days even those at the bottom of the class tended to land on their feet. ITE I am glad that schools are stepping up to assist with school funded help.

[Real Madrid]

This new study, that UVA did voluntarily, (the only school who has I believe) along with Elsons scavengering of Harvard and Yale's school funded outcomes overrides rayners analysis with new found data that seems to indicate that atleast at these 3 schools, he may have been too conservative in light of this new data set.

Are there still doubts? Yes.

Fair enough, but the article UVA published doesn't go into great detail about the jobs these students received. We know that the majority were JD-required, and they give us updates on 3-5 of their most successful students over the last few years from the program, but we have no salary information or anything. Perhaps there are more success stories like the few enumerated in the story, or perhaps UVA made sure to profile only those that really did have desirable outcomes.

In rayners underemployed/unemployed analysis, he takes an overly conservative approach which deems school funded jobs and many other types of employment as not desirable.

ETA: Perhaps you disagree, but I would argue that being employed by the school at graduation is an undesirable outcome. It's certainly possible that these students could land on their feet, but that's also possible for someone who's flat-out unemployed at graduation by the school or otherwise. To me, this article sounds good in theory, but when you actually get rid of all the fluff it's not much different than I would have originally imagined: namely, that not every single student that graduates unemployed or in a school fellowship is permanently screwed.

[sinfiery]

TLS common wisdom assumed UVA school funded jobs were basically the equivalent of Walmart employees.


When you have data specifically stating that a large majority are working as defined lawyers at least a couple years out, salary data that isn't tied to recent graduates starts to play a role. Conventional TLS wisdom stated that if you ended up in this school funded role, you were not going to be a lawyer after one year. This has made a strong counterpoint to that extreme view.

More info is always welcome and this is more info. Props to UVA.
But yeah, far from perfect and there is still so much we don't know. Sucks.

[kingjones59]

ETA: Perhaps you disagree, but I would argue that being employed by the school at graduation is an undesirable outcome. It's certainly possible that these students could land on their feet, but that's also possible for someone who's flat-out unemployed at graduation by the school or otherwise. To me, this article sounds good in theory, but when you actually get rid of all the fluff it's not much different than I would have originally imagined: namely, that not every single student that graduates unemployed or in a school fellowship is permanently screwed.

Again, for those who go to law school to get into PI (and are noble enough not to get pressured into the firm route), and with how difficult/near impossible it is to get PI jobs at the entry level, these fellowships, which turn at least 80% into full-time JD required jobs and pay 30K on top of paying your loans, are desirable positions. And you think it is equally, or even close as possible for someone who is flat out unemployed and not working in anything at all upon graduation to find a JD required job the following year as it is for someone in one of these fellowships?

To me, this article sounds good in theory, but when you actually get rid of all the fluff it's not much different than I would have originally imagined: namely, that not every single student that graduates unemployed or in a school fellowship is permanently screwed.

Infact, a majority of the students, pretty close to all of the students, are not screwed and are actually lawyers.


As everyone has said, there is so much we still do not know. However, this article makes it pretty apparent that just discounting UVAs school funded rate because these people will never be lawyers and are getting paid to do doc review or worse, would be incorrect.

[tee.ell.ess]

.

[dixiecupdrinking]

It's reasonable to think a good chunk of the school-funded graduates would have gone into private practice if they could have.

And it's also good to know that the vast majority of the school-funded graduates are finding legal jobs afterward.

For anyone capable of holding two different ideas in their head at the same time, it's not that complicated. The outcomes are not as good as they could be but much better than they could be, also.

[Real Madrid]

ETA: Perhaps you disagree, but I would argue that being employed by the school at graduation is an undesirable outcome. It's certainly possible that these students could land on their feet, but that's also possible for someone who's flat-out unemployed at graduation by the school or otherwise. To me, this article sounds good in theory, but when you actually get rid of all the fluff it's not much different than I would have originally imagined: namely, that not every single student that graduates unemployed or in a school fellowship is permanently screwed.

Again, for those who go to law school to get into PI (and are noble enough not to get pressured into the firm route), and with how difficult/near impossible it is to get PI jobs at the entry level, these fellowships, which turn at least 80% into full-time JD required jobs and pay 30K on top of paying your loans, are desirable positions. And you think it is equally, or even close as possible for someone who is flat out unemployed and not working in anything at all upon graduation to find a JD required job the following year as it is for someone in one of these fellowships?

To me, this article sounds good in theory, but when you actually get rid of all the fluff it's not much different than I would have originally imagined: namely, that not every single student that graduates unemployed or in a school fellowship is permanently screwed.

Infact, a majority of the students, pretty close to all of the students, are not screwed and are actually lawyers.


As everyone has said, there is so much we still do not know. However, this article makes it pretty apparent that just discounting UVAs school funded rate because these people will never be lawyers and are getting paid to do doc review or worse, would be incorrect.

Please do not turn this into an argument about nobility. You honestly believe that all - let alone the majority - wanted PI jobs upon matriculation? This is exactly why I asked you earlier why UVa (not traditionally known as a PI-heavy school) has gone from sending 4% of its grads into PI to 24% of its grads into "PI." How were students "more pressured" into big law than they are now? As far as I know, UVa still had its LRAP in place way back then for those 4% of students that wanted to pursue those jobs. No, these students are taking these jobs because they (at least for the majority) can't get the law firm gigs they want. You don't go from 4% to 24% in two years by accident.

Infact, a majority of the students, pretty close to all of the students, are not screwed and are actually lawyers.

Also, about this one little statement - half of it is true. The vast majority of them are lawyers. However, that in no way indicates that they aren't screwed. Is a 40k job at a small firm that doesn't qualify for LRAP with 200k+ in debt not screwed to you?

[Rahviveh]

Isn't it the nature of PI hiring that you usually have to work for free at these places until you pass the bar and they can extend a full-time offer? If that's the case UVA's program sounds like a great deal.

TLS CW is that LRAP-eligible PI is usually a good outcome - if UVA could provide a further breakdown of the types of jobs these graduates are getting, that would inspire more confidence. Still, I don't see any evidence that the risk of being underemployed is greater at UVA than its peers.

[NoodleyOne]

This is admittedly anecdotal, but at ASW, a good number of the current and prospective students I spoke to wanted to go into PI. So a culture change could have taken place, or perhaps the fellowship is more recent, or any different number of reasons.

And you're right, some of these guys probably wanted firm work and missed out on it. But I don't see how that in any way casts doubt onto the program itself. That could mean that, at UVA, if you miss the Biglaw boat, you have a reasonable fallback.

[09042014]

In rayners underemployed/unemployed analysis, he takes an overly conservative approach which deems school funded jobs and many other types of employment as not desirable.

This is wholly due to the absolutely terrible employment data in these categories along with the aforementioned conservative approach.


This new study, that UVA did voluntarily, (the only school who has I believe) along with Elsons scavengering of Harvard and Yale's school funded outcomes overrides rayners analysis with new found data that seems to indicate that atleast at these 3 schools, he may have been too conservative in light of this new data set.

Are there still doubts? Yes.

Well, if you are counting employment at 9 months, these people are unemployed. Just like someone who has no job, no internship at 9 months, is still unemployed if a year later they end up getting a job.

It doesn't really matter what their outcome is, they are unemployed at 9 months.