Columbia or $$ to a Lesser School? Forum

[SDC]

I want to do transactional work at a large New York firm before working in-house. The other options are $87,500 to Duke, $75,000 to Michigan, $72,000 to UVA, sticker at Chicago and NYU, $120,000 to USC.

I am looking at Columbia, NYU and UVA the most at this point in time. Michigan won't get me where I want and I prefer Columbia to NYU.

I understand how much money $70,000+ is. I will not have assistance, and although Columbia has not yet distributed aid I don't expect to receive any. I still feel like Columbia has an inherent safety net that UVA doesn't, and perhaps landing that initial firm job in NY will help enable me to find relatively higher quality in-house work later on. OGI heavily favoring the top % of the class at UVA scares me, and I don't want to cheap out now to be forever mournful about what I could've done somewhere else down the road. That said, $72,000 is $72,000.

Help. Thanks!

Edit: Since this does help calculate, here's this, as determined in the third post of this thread...

"The comparison, then: $240,000 at CLS to $139,200 at UVA for three years COA before interest."

I'd like to pay down debt for a couple years less, but can UVA reliably get me where I want to go?

[helix23]

In before everyone asks for the total COA from each.

[SDC]

In before everyone asks for the total COA from each.

I'll try to estimate.

Columbia falls at just under $80,000 per year. $240,000 before interest, $280,000 after.

UVA is $71,000-72,000 per year, and after including the scholarship that comes out to $170,000 before interest. I'd guess around $200,000 or slightly over after interest.

I don't know the others offhand, perhaps I'll edit it in later.

The comparison, then: $240,000 at CLS to $139,200 at UVA for three years COA before interest.

[EdgarWinter]

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[spyke123]

Is it just me? But I feel like some people on tls are becoming too debt averse, even to a fault... 75k is a lot of money but UVAs placement rate just scares the hell out of me.. I honestly don't think people should be considering some of the lower t14 unless its almost full ride/have no interest in biglaw

[SDC]

Is it just me? But I feel like some people on tls are becoming too debt averse, even to a fault... 75k is a lot of money but UVAs placement rate just scares the hell out of me.. I honestly don't think people should be considering some of the lower t14 unless its almost full ride/have no interest in biglaw

This is why I'm scared! UVA places less than an eighth of their class into New York, and sure there'll be less people trying than CLS but still. I hear about a large amount of school-funded jobs, too, and my fear is that I'd take the plunge only to find the top group of students had pre-selected for the interviews I wanted. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that I should even think I'm anywhere close to a lock for that top-ranked group, either.

Does that make sense? I know it's a lot of money but from what I can tell, the job situation's not good at Virginia.

[Rahviveh]

spyke and SDC I think you're both a little too down on UVA. Their stats for c/o 2012 are quite good, especially since self-selection probably puts a downward bias on their placement results: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

[spyke123]

Is it just me? But I feel like some people on tls are becoming too debt averse, even to a fault... 75k is a lot of money but UVAs placement rate just scares the hell out of me.. I honestly don't think people should be considering some of the lower t14 unless its almost full ride/have no interest in biglaw

This is why I'm scared! UVA places less than an eighth of their class into New York, and sure there'll be less people trying than CLS but still. I hear about a large amount of school-funded jobs, too, and my fear is that I'd take the plunge only to find the top group of students had pre-selected for the interviews I wanted. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that I should even think I'm anywhere close to a lock for that top-ranked group, either.

Does that make sense? I know it's a lot of money but from what I can tell, the job situation's not good at Virginia.

If u are set on biglaw, take Columbia and don't look back. It has the best biglaw placement rate and once u strike out there is no turning back at UVA..

[Nelson]

Is it just me? But I feel like some people on tls are becoming too debt averse, even to a fault... 75k is a lot of money but UVAs placement rate just scares the hell out of me.. I honestly don't think people should be considering some of the lower t14 unless its almost full ride/have no interest in biglaw

This is why I'm scared! UVA places less than an eighth of their class into New York, and sure there'll be less people trying than CLS but still. I hear about a large amount of school-funded jobs, too, and my fear is that I'd take the plunge only to find the top group of students had pre-selected for the interviews I wanted. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that I should even think I'm anywhere close to a lock for that top-ranked group, either.

Does that make sense? I know it's a lot of money but from what I can tell, the job situation's not good at Virginia.

If u are set on biglaw, take Columbia and don't look back. It has the best biglaw placement rate and once u strike out there is no turning back at UVA..

No. This is dumb. The difference in placement between Columbia and UVA is not that great. It certainly isn't worth 75k in principle + 3 years of capitalized GradPlus interest. Columbia at sticker is ridiculously expensive and you should not take it with money on the table at other schools.

EDIT: OP, I'd be taking a look at Duke in this situation and negotiating hard with the other schools.

[spyke123]

spyke and SDC I think you're both a little too down on UVA. Their stats for c/o 2012 are quite good, especially since self-selection probably puts a downward bias on their placement results: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

Ic, looks like they did bounce back nicely.. but still what if there is another economic slowdown n UVA tanks again? I would be still scared

[SDC]

spyke and SDC I think you're both a little too down on UVA. Their stats for c/o 2012 are quite good, especially since self-selection probably puts a downward bias on their placement results: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That's true, but according to LST, 33.4% of UVA grads found work at a firm with 251+ attorneys. Columbia is 58.6%. If you adjust that number to 501+, UVA drops to a quarter of its grads with Columbia at double that. The firm work I want is probably at those larger firms, there's no such thing as a corporate boutique.

Prove me wrong, please, attending UVA without thinking I screwed up would be a dream. Employment's the only knock I have against it.

[Rahviveh]

spyke and SDC I think you're both a little too down on UVA. Their stats for c/o 2012 are quite good, especially since self-selection probably puts a downward bias on their placement results: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That's true, but according to LST, 33.4% of UVA grads found work at a firm with 251+ attorneys. Columbia is 58.6%. If you adjust that number to 501+, UVA drops to a quarter of its grads with Columbia at double that. The firm work I want is probably at those larger firms, there's no such thing as a corporate boutique.

Prove me wrong, please, attending UVA without thinking I screwed up would be a dream. Employment's the only knock I have against it.

LST is outdated at this point. TLS has relied too much on c/o 2011 stats. I already showed you the other thread

[NYstate]

I wish the stats weren't so far behind real hiring. I honestly believe those 2012 numbers are better than the upcoming summer class coming into biglaw. Seems like they were improving and then dipped. I don't remember is there data on the number of people who got biglaw SAs starting this summer?

[Tiago Splitter]

I wish the stats weren't so far behind real hiring. I honestly believe those 2012 numbers are better than the upcoming summer class coming into biglaw. Seems like they were improving and then dipped. I don't remember is there data on the number of people who got biglaw SAs starting this summer?

More than 70% of Columbia's class of 2013 got V100 SA's. Don't have numbers for any other schools.

[bowser]

No one can prove you wrong. But the disparity you're talking about--Biglaw in NY--is probably not as large as the numbers you're citing make them out to be. Self selection plays a big part.

I went with CLS, with a $ gap similar to yours, but not the same situation (I could've gone to UVA/Mich for free; I'm gonna end up paying 70K or so out of pocket here). It wasn't that hard a decision for me: I have enough savings to keep that debt down around 50K or less; if you're taking out all loans for Columbia the interest is going to get ugly.

The thing that makes this close is you seem to know you want to do transactional work in NY (although sometimes these things change). Even posters who are really down on the T6 thing or NY in general would probably admit that's worth a fair chunk of change in deciding b/t UVA and CLS.

[bowser]

I wish the stats weren't so far behind real hiring. I honestly believe those 2012 numbers are better than the upcoming summer class coming into biglaw. Seems like they were improving and then dipped. I don't remember is there data on the number of people who got biglaw SAs starting this summer?

c/o 2013 Biglaw hiring was probably significantly better than 2012, which got me all hot and bothered. Then apparently c/o 2014 kind of sucked (although, looking at some of the planned class sizes, it wasn't a huge fall-off from 2013 and was probably better than 2012; I think expectations play a part.)

[Rahviveh]

I wish the stats weren't so far behind real hiring. I honestly believe those 2012 numbers are better than the upcoming summer class coming into biglaw. Seems like they were improving and then dipped. I don't remember is there data on the number of people who got biglaw SAs starting this summer?

c/o 2013 Biglaw hiring was probably significantly better than 2012, which got me all hot and bothered. Then apparently c/o 2014 kind of sucked (although, looking at some of the planned class sizes, it wasn't a huge fall-off from 2013 and was probably better than 2012; I think expectations play a part.)

Anecdotally from what I've heard c/o 2014 was slightly worse than 2013 but definitely no worse than 2012. We won't know for sure for another couple months.

[Bronck]

I wish the stats weren't so far behind real hiring. I honestly believe those 2012 numbers are better than the upcoming summer class coming into biglaw. Seems like they were improving and then dipped. I don't remember is there data on the number of people who got biglaw SAs starting this summer?

c/o 2013 Biglaw hiring was probably significantly better than 2012, which got me all hot and bothered. Then apparently c/o 2014 kind of sucked (although, looking at some of the planned class sizes, it wasn't a huge fall-off from 2013 and was probably better than 2012; I think expectations play a part.)

Yeah, from what I've heard from 2Ls, c/o 2014 was probably a minor fall off. Not sure I'm willing to say it 'sucked', but we'll have to wait until next month to see after we get the breakdown. That being said, our class (2015) is 10% smaller than 2014 -- assuming that this stays level for 2016, that could bode well for hiring.

Anyway, $280k in debt at graduation is nothing to take lightly. In some circumstances (splitters who don't get money in lower ranked T14 schools), the option may make sense. But, I don't think it does in OP's case. Assuming you did get big law from CLS, the likeliest scenario would be exiting big law with a sizable chunk of debt ($100-150k+). I understand the desire to go to the school that gives you the highest chances of attaining your goal, but I think the Duke and UVA offers are the ones you should be most strongly considering (assuming your UVA pre-interest number is correct). I'm still bearish on Michigan's placement, but maybe someone with first-hand knowledge can help illuminate how their c/o 2013 and 2014 OCIs went.

[TheColonel]

More than 70% of Columbia's class of 2013 got V100 SA's. Don't have numbers for any other schools.

Do you have a source for this that you could share? Not doubting, just curious.

[Bronck]

More than 70% of Columbia's class of 2013 got V100 SA's. Don't have numbers for any other schools.

Do you have a source for this that you could share? Not doubting, just curious.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272