GWU vs Lower T1

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:04 pm

Can someone tell me the pros and cons of attending GWU?

I understand the disadvantages to attending the school:
1) the D.C. market is over-saturated with too many graduates and very little growth in the legal market
2) The COA is very high as well as the COL
3) It has very little national reputation and is not as portable as the T-14

However, assuming I will have no debt to be concerned about, can someone give me a little more insight as to why this may or may not be a bad idea.

For context, I have been accepted to UIUC, George Mason and American and two other safety schools. Needless to say, GWU is my highest ranking option as of yet. I am still waiting on a few other schools. They have an 80.7% employment rating whereas the other schools show a 50/50 chance of employment.

I have no preference as to where I want to live.
I have no specific desire as to what area of law I want to practice in. (possibly thinking corporate)
I may be planning on pursuing a JD/MBA after my first year of law school if it seems feasible.
Big law may not be my ultimate goal.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:13 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:Can someone tell me the pros and cons of attending GWU?

I understand the disadvantages to attending the school:
1) the D.C. market is over-saturated with too many graduates and very little growth in the legal market
2) The COA is very high as well as the COL
3) It has very little national reputation and is not as portable as the T-14

However, assuming I will have no debt to be concerned about, can someone give me a little more insight as to why this may or may not be a bad idea.

For context, I have been accepted to UIUC, George Mason and American and two other safety schools. Needless to say, GWU is my highest ranking option as of yet. I am still waiting on a few other schools. They have an 80.7% employment rating whereas the other schools show a 50/50 chance of employment.

I have no preference as to where I want to live.
I have no specific desire as to what area of law I want to practice in. (possibly thinking corporate)
I may be planning on pursuing a JD/MBA after my first year of law school if it seems feasible.
Big law may not be my ultimate goal.

GW is a fine school, but it's not a great school. It places a decent amount of students into biglaw, but it's in a saturated market, so job prospects in general are meh and if you're below median you might be struggling to find a decent job. It is difficult to argue that it's worth paying full price, but that's about it. Do keep in mind that the degree is not portable, so you'll have a hard time finding a good job outside of the DC ares.

American, on the other hand, is even lower down the food chain, and even the better students in the class will be struggling to find a decent job.

Now for your goals: if you want to do corporate, you need to shoot for biglaw, as there's very little corporate work outside of it. (therefore, GW is a big risk). However, at this point, you don't know what you want to do. It's probably not a good idea to go to law school without clear goals, but others can argue that. What I will say is that a JD/MBA is very expensive and should not be done just for the sake of doing a JD/MBA. Again, you should try and figure out what you want to do before going into it, but far more so for a JD/MBA than for an MBA.

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:37 pm

I have heard that those who know what they do coming into law school tend to be more focused and therefore do better. How would I be able to become more acquainted with the various types of law so that I may be able to more accurately match my interests to them?

Also, when you say it will be difficult to find a good job outside of D.C., do you mean fresh out of law school or in the long run?

The pursuit of a MBA was mainly because I am very interested in business and hoped to open my own firm after perhaps working in the business.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:45 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:I have heard that those who know what they do coming into law school tend to be more focused and therefore do better. How would I be able to become more acquainted with the various types of law so that I may be able to more accurately match my interests to them?

Also, when you say it will be difficult to find a good job outside of D.C., do you mean fresh out of law school or in the long run?

The pursuit of a MBA was mainly because I am very interested in business and hoped to open my own firm after perhaps working in the business.

Once you've been out of law school for a few years, no one really cares where you went to school, just what you've done since.

When you say you hoped to open your own firm, do you mean your own law firm?
Why do you want to go to law school?

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:13 am

dingbat wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:I have heard that those who know what they do coming into law school tend to be more focused and therefore do better. How would I be able to become more acquainted with the various types of law so that I may be able to more accurately match my interests to them?

Also, when you say it will be difficult to find a good job outside of D.C., do you mean fresh out of law school or in the long run?

The pursuit of a MBA was mainly because I am very interested in business and hoped to open my own firm after perhaps working in the business.

Once you've been out of law school for a few years, no one really cares where you went to school, just what you've done since.

When you say you hoped to open your own firm, do you mean your own law firm?
Why do you want to go to law school?


The bolded is really not true.

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:17 am

Yes, my own law firm. Only after I have built a sufficient client base.

Every time I am asked this question, I am stumped because there are so many foolish or typical reasons to want to go and I feel like all my reasoning matches up with these. I suppose my main reason (or at least why I chose to apply) be to create change, in short. I would like to be able to advocate those who are unable to pay for attorney representation. Specifically interested in juvenile justice or educational policy. However, due to the downturn of the economy, I feel it would be wiser to aim for the most lucrative field and then perhaps make a career shift later in life to what I'd really like.

Aside from this, white collar crime is of interest to me as well. That is why I may be leaning towards corporate law.


Edit
Last edited by icanbeohyes on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:18 am

ndirish2010 wrote:The bolded is really not true.

Let me rephrase - the more you accomplish after school, the less it matters what school you attended. Maybe "a few" isn't right and I should have said "several". Yes, your bio might mention it, but apart from the old alumni network, the truth of the matter is that someone who graduated Yale but then spent 10 years on the beach is not getting a job over someone who went to some TTT but managed to win a case at the supreme court. (of course, you're more likely to get a chance to argue a case at the supreme court if you went to Yale)

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:19 am

icanbeohyes wrote:Yes, my own law firm. Only after I have built a sufficient client base.

Every time I am asked this question, I am stumped because there are so many foolish or typical reasons to want to go and I feel like all my reasoning matches up with these. I suppose my main reason (or at least why I chose to apply) be to create change, in short. I would like representing those who are unable to do so. Specifically interested in juvenile justice or educational policy. However, due to the downturn of the economy, I feel it would be wiser to aim for the most lucrative field and then perhaps make a career shift later in life to what I'd really like.

Aside from this, white collar crime is of interest to me as well.

personally, I think you should aim for what you want to do, and not what is more lucrative. It's a cliche but money can't buy you happiness and I know enough people who've gone that route and hated it.

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:23 am

I appreciate the sentiment, but at this moment I still have no direct and clear goal. I also have no idea whether or not I'll be happier working in PI or corporate. I guess I shall have to do a bit more research so I can at least have some kind of concentration going into law school. Thank you for your suggestion though. I will definitely keep them in mind.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:25 am

icanbeohyes wrote:I appreciate the sentiment, but at this moment I still have no direct and clear goal. I also have no idea whether or not I'll be happier working in PI or corporate. I guess I shall have to do a bit more research so I can at least have some kind of concentration going into law school. Thank you for your suggestion though. I will definitely keep them in mind.

It's ok to not know what you want to do, but again, why law school? why lawyer? It's a shitty job and unless you really want to be an attorney, it's probably not a good idea

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:35 am

I feel like asking someone why they want to be a lawyer is equivalent to asking any person in any field why they'd like to pursue any profession. I think the general consensus is because you want to. I really don't think anyone can reasonably justify their reasoning to become a lawyer. (at least not anyone straight out of undergrad). Other than I feel like that is my place and where I can do the most justice to my existence, I have no other answer.

I have interned in two different law firms (2-10 employees). I enjoyed the desk work I was given. I could see myself doing what they did and that was my place.
What could be a better reason than, you like it or it interests you?

jarofsoup
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby jarofsoup » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:57 am

GWU:

Pros:
-Strong degree for the market. I do not think Georgetown performed much better than GWU did in the D.C. market this year. I actually believe that its statistics were worse. (I think the difference is seen on a national scale).
-INTERNING POSSIBILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-INTERNING POSSIBILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-More portable to some markets than you may think. We do have a lot of alumni in NYC and Phili and firms do come to the school form NYC to higher.

Cons:
-Can be seen as regional, but there are exceptions
-Expensive
-The normal law school bs that all law schools do.


I cannot emphasize that interning potential at GWU or GULC. During the fall and spring at GWU it is easy to get an agency internship.

As for AU. AU does not really compete that much. GWU and GULC actually have joint career fairs and exclude AU. There are a lot of AU transfers at GULC also.

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:15 am

Do you think it'd be possible to attain a job in Florida after a few years of working in D.C. or is that too far of a reach?

User avatar
Yukos
Posts: 1774
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby Yukos » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:16 am

American is trash. They gave up any semblance of admission standards so they wouldn't have to cut class size and their employment stats are just Godawful.

What are your stats? If you want to be able to PI, you have to either a) go to a school for free or b) go to a school with a good loan repayment (LRAP) program. As far as I know only T14s offer B, so you're probably better off retaking so that you can either get a full-ride somewhere or get into a T14.

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:21 am

In my original post, I have already stated that money isn't an issue for me. I just would rather start off in a lucrative field before pursuing secondary interests.

User avatar
Yukos
Posts: 1774
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby Yukos » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:24 am

icanbeohyes wrote:In my original post, I have already stated that money isn't an issue for me. I just would rather start off in a lucrative field before pursuing secondary interests.


If money is seriously of no concern at all, then just go to the highest ranked school with the best employment stats that you get into, unless you secretly do have a geographic preference, in which case go to the highest ranked school with the best employment stats that you get into in that region.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:56 am

You have to ask yourself various broad questions.

What kind of clients do I want to serve?
Civil or criminal law?
What type of day to day tasks?
What kind of organization? How many attorneys, how well established?
What type of job 10 years down the road?

For example, if you want to be in court on day 1, doing criminal law, work for an established organization, and represent lower and middle income individuals, you should go to a school/debt load that gives you a fair shot at that goal, given that those jobs are PSLF eligible but pay little. Sometimes an outcome will be unlikely out of law school. You cannot really represent big corporations, think mergers and IPOs are the shit, and work for a small organization. Nor can you be a PD and make big money.

User avatar
cahwc12
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:54 am

icanbeohyes wrote:Can someone tell me the pros and cons of attending GWU?

I understand the disadvantages to attending the school:
1) the D.C. market is over-saturated with too many graduates and very little growth in the legal market
2) The COA is very high as well as the COL
3) It has very little national reputation and is not as portable as the T-14

However, assuming I will have no debt to be concerned about, can someone give me a little more insight as to why this may or may not be a bad idea.

For context, I have been accepted to UIUC, George Mason and American and two other safety schools. Needless to say, GWU is my highest ranking option as of yet. I am still waiting on a few other schools. They have an 80.7% employment rating whereas the other schools show a 50/50 chance of employment.

I have no preference as to where I want to live.
I have no specific desire as to what area of law I want to practice in. (possibly thinking corporate)
I may be planning on pursuing a JD/MBA after my first year of law school if it seems feasible.
Big law may not be my ultimate goal.


A couple things worth noting about GW from the information you've shown:

1) the 80.7% employment is inflated by 15.4% of the class in school-funded jobs which may or may not be legitimate PI jobs.

2) GW is a fantastic school for IP if you are at all interested in that or have a STEM background.

3) GW has a part-time program which is great for cutting the cost of law school down. Part of the reason paying so much for law school is in general a terrible idea is because you are foregoing the opportunity to work a full-time job for three years. At GW (and some other schools) you can go part-time, which allows you to work part- or full-time while in law school. I know at least a few posters on TLS are doing that now (and I hope to do that next year) so that's worth looking into as well.

4) Do not attend American, and tell everyone you know who brings up that name the same thing. It is one of the most expensive ABA-approved schools (34th out of 201) to attend and has one of the worst employment outcomes of that same set of ABA-approved schools (170th out of 201). LST

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby cinephile » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:04 am

I have never heard anything good about George Washington. It's very expensive, in an expensive city, in an oversaturated market, and has SO MANY of its own students on school-funded fellowships and halfway through the fellowship tried to lower the pay from $15/hr to $10/hr.

What's the lower TI you're talking about? Is it your super cheap state school that dominates its market? If so, choose that school.

ajax
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:33 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby ajax » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:28 am

cinephile wrote:I have never heard anything good about George Washington. It's very expensive, in an expensive city, in an oversaturated market, and has SO MANY of its own students on school-funded fellowships and halfway through the fellowship tried to lower the pay from $15/hr to $10/hr.

What's the lower TI you're talking about? Is it your super cheap state school that dominates its market? If so, choose that school.



I wouldn't go to GW without significant money and no stips. They took in 104 transfers last year! That is 104 more people to compete with for a job.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/RELEASE/ ... lData.aspx

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:32 pm

I indeed know of the saturation of the DC market and the 15% of school-funded jobs. However, 65% of employment is still higher than the other schools I have been accepted to so far. Money is of no consequence to me.


cinephile wrote:I have never heard anything good about George Washington. It's very expensive, in an expensive city, in an oversaturated market, and has SO MANY of its own students on school-funded fellowships and halfway through the fellowship tried to lower the pay from $15/hr to $10/hr.
What's the lower TI you're talking about? Is it your super cheap state school that dominates its market? If so, choose that school.


The other T1s I have gotten into are: George Mason, American, UIUC, U Richmond and Northeastern. I am still waiting about 10 schools. However, I expect not to break the T-14 because of my stats. Assuming anywhere else is a viable option in terms of COL/COA, would you still recommend taking one of these options over GWU?

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:33 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:I indeed know of the saturation of the DC market and the 15% of school-funded jobs. However, 65% of employment is still higher than the other schools I have been accepted to so far. Money is of no consequence to me.


cinephile wrote:I have never heard anything good about George Washington. It's very expensive, in an expensive city, in an oversaturated market, and has SO MANY of its own students on school-funded fellowships and halfway through the fellowship tried to lower the pay from $15/hr to $10/hr.
What's the lower TI you're talking about? Is it your super cheap state school that dominates its market? If so, choose that school.


The other T1s I have gotten into are: George Mason, American, UIUC, U Richmond and Northeastern. I am still waiting about 10 schools. However, I expect not to break the T-14 because of my stats. Assuming anywhere else is a viable option in terms of COL/COA, would you still recommend taking one of these options over GWU?


Why is money of no consequence?

icanbeohyes
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:40 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:I indeed know of the saturation of the DC market and the 15% of school-funded jobs. However, 65% of employment is still higher than the other schools I have been accepted to so far. Money is of no consequence to me.


cinephile wrote:I have never heard anything good about George Washington. It's very expensive, in an expensive city, in an oversaturated market, and has SO MANY of its own students on school-funded fellowships and halfway through the fellowship tried to lower the pay from $15/hr to $10/hr.
What's the lower TI you're talking about? Is it your super cheap state school that dominates its market? If so, choose that school.


The other T1s I have gotten into are: George Mason, American, UIUC, U Richmond and Northeastern. I am still waiting about 10 schools. However, I expect not to break the T-14 because of my stats. Assuming anywhere else is a viable option in terms of COL/COA, would you still recommend taking one of these options over GWU?


Why is money of no consequence?



I received a full tuition scholarship to my undergraduate institution, however my parents had been saving up a college fund for me for years. Although I am not wealthy, the accumulation of 22 years of savings from both my parents & grandparents is more than enough to cover the $250k tutition.

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:44 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:I received a full tuition scholarship to my undergraduate institution, however my parents had been saving up a college fund for me for years. Although I am not wealthy, the accumulation of 22 years of savings from both my parents & grandparents is more than enough to cover the $250k tutition.

This does not mean money is of no consequence! $250k is still $250k!

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:47 pm

TripTrip wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:I received a full tuition scholarship to my undergraduate institution, however my parents had been saving up a college fund for me for years. Although I am not wealthy, the accumulation of 22 years of savings from both my parents & grandparents is more than enough to cover the $250k tutition.

This does not mean money is of no consequence! $250k is still $250k!


Yeah man, with 250k you could buy a subway restaurant, go part-time to the local city-school for free, kick-ass.

Not everyones dream but very profitable.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], EncyclopediaOrange and 4 guests