Why the hate on Gtown?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which would you pick?

Georgetown Law - with $50,000+
58
51%
Any other t-14 at sticker
55
49%
 
Total votes: 113

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mvonh001
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Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby mvonh001 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:43 pm

M458 wrote:Perhaps it wouldn't be the best long-term financial option, but I would probably pick every T-14 at full-ride except Georgetown over Harvard at sticker (Harvard with some grant aid becomes a different story). A difference of approximately $150k worth of debt sucks. The psychological effect of that much debt hanging over your head is draining, and having already experienced (albeit on a smaller scale) paying back undergrad loans, I wouldn't want to go through that again with even more debt. I just feel like a full-ride at a non-HYS may not give you as much opportunities in terms of making some job outcomes less likely or nearly impossible (elite firms, clerkships, academia, etc.), but at least with a full-ride you come out of a great school with no debt.


Why does everyone hate on Gtown? I don't understand it. lol
It is t-14 isnt it? Therefore it should be a better choice than any non t-14 school, right? But i wouldnt know that if i just read your posts on schools, and this is in multiple topics. Why does everyone hate on Gtown??
Last edited by mvonh001 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:47 pm

mvonh001 wrote:
M458 wrote:Perhaps it wouldn't be the best long-term financial option, but I would probably pick every T-14 at full-ride except Georgetown over Harvard at sticker (Harvard with some grant aid becomes a different story). A difference of approximately $150k worth of debt sucks. The psychological effect of that much debt hanging over your head is draining, and having already experienced (albeit on a smaller scale) paying back undergrad loans, I wouldn't want to go through that again with even more debt. I just feel like a full-ride at a non-HYS may not give you as much opportunities in terms of making some job outcomes less likely or nearly impossible (elite firms, clerkships, academia, etc.), but at least with a full-ride you come out of a great school with no debt.


Why does everyone hate on Gtown? I don't understand it. lol
It is t-14 isnt it? Therefore it should be a better choice than any non t-14 school, right? But i wouldnt know that if i just read your posts on schools, and this is in multiple topics. Why does everyone hate on Gtown??
It's the worst school in the T14. It's also the only school in the T14 with less than 50% placement in biglaw or Fed Clerkship

cynthiad
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby cynthiad » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:49 pm

It's at the bottom of the T14, and it's located in DC which is an incredibly competitive market. It's not really a national school like the upper T14, so most people at Gtown look for a job in DC, where the competition makes it really hard to get a job.

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moonman157
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby moonman157 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:50 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gulc

Georgetown isn't a bad school per se, but it has two big things working against it: 1) a huge class size, and 2) a feeder city that is dominated by HYS and other T14 students who finished at the top of their classes. Reputation-wise, it may not be any worse than its peers (Duke, Cornell), but these factors play into poor employment statistics, at least from a T14 perspective. DC is also expensive, and students from GT tend to have some of the highest debt out of any school in the country.

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cahwc12
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby cahwc12 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:23 pm

To me, the reason GULC is deserving of the hate is because of the huge transfer classes they admit. Most schools admit a handful of transfers each year, but GULC admits 100+ after 1L and after 2L. These people mostly transfer up and pay sticker, and the school doesn't have to report their GPA/LSAT.

M458
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby M458 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:40 pm

DC is also really expensive.

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mvonh001
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby mvonh001 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:44 pm

so would you all suggest any other t-14 at sticker vs any amount of money from Gtown? If i wanted to practice in NY, CA, FL, or DC (obviously open to other cities such as Penn, but none came to mind initially).

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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby Gooses » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:52 pm

cahwc12 wrote:To me, the reason GULC is deserving of the hate is because of the huge transfer classes they admit. Most schools admit a handful of transfers each year, but GULC admits 100+ after 1L and after 2L. These people mostly transfer up and pay sticker, and the school doesn't have to report their GPA/LSAT.


And they snag a lot of the biglaw jerbs.

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quiver
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby quiver » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:11 pm

Gooses wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:To me, the reason GULC is deserving of the hate is because of the huge transfer classes they admit. Most schools admit a handful of transfers each year, but GULC admits 100+ after 1L and after 2L. These people mostly transfer up and pay sticker, and the school doesn't have to report their GPA/LSAT.


And they snag a lot of the biglaw jerbs.
Eh. I understand this point but CLS and NYU also have large transfer classes and nobody rips on them. I think the real reason is that GULC's main market is DC which is ridiculously competitive (as others have said). If there were enough jobs to go around between native GULC students and transfers nobody would care how big the transfer class is. It's just that the transfer class size exacerbates the already-existing problems.

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mvonh001
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby mvonh001 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:16 pm

So DC is competitive, but what about NY, or CA? According to Score Reports those are the 2 biggest markets for Gtown graduates?

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dingbat
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:23 pm

mvonh001 wrote:So DC is competitive, but what about NY, or CA? According to Score Reports those are the 2 biggest markets for Gtown graduates?

NY is the biggest market, nearly twice as big as any other market, but Georgetown is competing with the rest of the T14 and a whole lot more besides
CA has two large markets: LA and SF. SF is dominated by Stanfird and Berkeley
LA is dominated by UCLA and USC, as well as Stanford and Berkeley, followed by the rest of the T14

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IAFG
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:31 pm

I do think self-selecting out of big firm gunning hurts GULC if you're just looking at the numbers, but I'm not confident enough about that for me to recommend it over any other T14. For me, it's really about the class size and lack of home market. I just don't want to compete for the same slots with so damn many other people.

I had $84,500 at GULC and $50k at NU and that was a tough call, but ultimately I chose NU over GULC, and knowing what I know now, I would make the same choice again.

California is only realistic if you have strong ties there.

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mvonh001
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby mvonh001 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:42 pm

I have no ties to CA but strong ties to FL, which i would like to move back to after law school (and big law stint assuming i dont find a job in FL).

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bk1
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby bk1 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:49 pm

I agree with IAFG that self-selection definitely hurts GULC. See:

bk1 wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'll agree that GULC gets hurt by its large class size but I feel that TLS exaggerates the difference between it and the rest of the T14 (consider that GULCers are more likely to want govt work and are more likely to target DC, one of the hardest markets, rather than NYC, one of the easiest markets). I could be wrong but I feel that it is a lot of conjecture on either side of the argument. I understand that this is a simplistic analysis but looking at NLJ250 data (which of course doesn't account for clerkships and a myriad other things): GULC was within 0.5% of UMich in 2011, within 0.5% of Duke in 2010, over 1% ahead of Cornell in 2009, roughly 5% behind UMich (50vs55) in 2008, roughly 5% behind Berkeley (48vs53) in 2007, almost 5% ahead of Berkeley (53vs49) in 2006, and tied with Berkeley in 2005. Yes GULC is the laggard at the tail end of the T14 because it has a lot of students, but I would not say that the difference is substantial enough to dismiss it outright when compared to another lower T14 at similar cost.


Not to mention on the unemployment/underemployment front GULC does about as poorly as other lower T14's (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723). Which gives credence to the idea that self-selection hurts GULC's biglaw placement and not its job placement ability.


I think there's a lot of things that hurt GULC's placement: gunning for DC and striking out, self-selecting out of biglaw, etc. I agree that there is some risk in GULC because it's hard to know how much self-selection really is at work. Considering that, I would agree with a call like IAFG's of taking another lower T14 even at a 10k/year higher cost than GULC. Though, in the end, I think if you are okay with other T14s at sticker I think you should be okay with GULC at sticker.

I also think LST's score is off and I'm not entirely sure why (maybe because gov jobs count as JD advantage?). Adding up firms of 100+, fed clerks, gov, and PI gets you 55% of GULC's class of 2011. That seems to me to be a reasonable percentage and I don't think it makes it a worse call than other schools (e.g. UMich at 60%).

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A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:55 pm

mvonh001 wrote:I have no ties to CA but strong ties to FL, which i would like to move back to after law school (and big law stint assuming i dont find a job in FL).


What exactly count as strong ties? Going to high school nearby, having a florida accent, dad's a partner? I hear this constantly, so just wondering what it means for someone without a home market.

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bk1
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby bk1 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:56 pm

A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
mvonh001 wrote:I have no ties to CA but strong ties to FL, which i would like to move back to after law school (and big law stint assuming i dont find a job in FL).


What exactly count as strong ties? Going to high school nearby, having a florida accent, dad's a partner? I hear this constantly, so just wondering what it means for someone without a home market.

The search function has all the answers.

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A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:59 pm

bk1 wrote:
A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A wrote:
mvonh001 wrote:I have no ties to CA but strong ties to FL, which i would like to move back to after law school (and big law stint assuming i dont find a job in FL).


What exactly count as strong ties? Going to high school nearby, having a florida accent, dad's a partner? I hear this constantly, so just wondering what it means for someone without a home market.

The search function has all the answers.

Found it

igo2northwestern
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby igo2northwestern » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:37 am

bk1 wrote:I also think LST's score is off and I'm not entirely sure why (maybe because gov jobs count as JD advantage?). Adding up firms of 100+, fed clerks, gov, and PI gets you 55% of GULC's class of 2011. That seems to me to be a reasonable percentage and I don't think it makes it a worse call than other schools (e.g. UMich at 60%).


In LST, if we add up 101 and 26-100 law firms, fed clerks, and public interest, GULC sits at the lowest -- 57.6%. Cornell is 60.2%, Umich is 65.2%.
Median for T14: 78.1%
Average for T14: 75.6%
Median for Non-HYS T14: 72.3%
Average for Non-HYS T14: 73.1%

The conclusion we can draw here isn't very significant -- it does tell us that GULC has the lowest employment prospects in the T14...but not by a whole lot.

But let's say that GULC students self-select into PI (18.2%). Then it would be reasonable to compare their employment results (in other categories) to schools that place similarly in PI (non-HYS T14). That gives us Columbia (14.3%), Berkeley (19.4%), UChicago (19.7%), NYU (24.9%), UVa (25.2%), and Cornell (10.9%).

Out of this group of schools that have good PI scores, GULC still trails very far with their Clerkship score (3.9%, compared to the 2nd lowest @ 8%). In fact, if you compare GULC to all T14, their fed clerkship numbers are far far below median (10.6%). And this includes schools that have good firm placement to balance a low fed clerk placement.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby Ruxin1 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:45 am

igo2northwestern wrote:
bk1 wrote:I also think LST's score is off and I'm not entirely sure why (maybe because gov jobs count as JD advantage?). Adding up firms of 100+, fed clerks, gov, and PI gets you 55% of GULC's class of 2011. That seems to me to be a reasonable percentage and I don't think it makes it a worse call than other schools (e.g. UMich at 60%).


In LST, if we add up 101 and 26-100 law firms, fed clerks, and public interest, GULC sits at the lowest -- 57.6%. Cornell is 60.2%, Umich is 65.2%.
Median for T14: 78.1%
Average for T14: 75.6%
Median for Non-HYS T14: 72.3%
Average for Non-HYS T14: 73.1%

The conclusion we can draw here isn't very significant -- it does tell us that GULC has the lowest employment prospects in the T14...but not by a whole lot.

But let's say that GULC students self-select into PI (18.2%). Then it would be reasonable to compare their employment results (in other categories) to schools that place similarly in PI (non-HYS T14). That gives us Columbia (14.3%), Berkeley (19.4%), UChicago (19.7%), NYU (24.9%), UVa (25.2%), and Cornell (10.9%).

Out of this group of schools that have good PI scores, GULC still trails very far with their Clerkship score (3.9%, compared to the 2nd lowest @ 8%). In fact, if you compare GULC to all T14, their fed clerkship numbers are far far below median (10.6%). And this includes schools that have good firm placement to balance a low fed clerk placement.


I wouldn't use 26-100 for firms, I think 50+ is a better metric - I have a hard time believing working at a firm with 30 attorneys is going to pay a salary able to service 200k worth of debt.

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mvonh001
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby mvonh001 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:51 am

if the prospects are so abysmal then why is the school in the t14?(srs) and why do people choose to go there? What outcome can they realistically expect?

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Ruxin1
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby Ruxin1 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:54 am

mvonh001 wrote:if the prospects are so abysmal then why is the school in the t14?(srs) and why do people choose to go there? What outcome can they realistically expect?


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=guides&show=13

igo2northwestern
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby igo2northwestern » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:00 pm

Ruxin1 wrote:I wouldn't use 26-100 for firms, I think 50+ is a better metric - I have a hard time believing working at a firm with 30 attorneys is going to pay a salary able to service 200k worth of debt.

The LST data doesn't give you the option of 50+, and if you look at the data, you'll find that the % at 26-100 firms is negligible. Same conclusions.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs

mvonh001 wrote:if the prospects are so abysmal then why is the school in the t14?(srs) and why do people choose to go there? What outcome can they realistically expect?

The T14 is the group of schools that has never left the top 14 US News rankings. And save UTexas in 2011, no other school has ever made it into the top 14.

GULC is no doubt a great place to attend - its employment prospects are still very good; I was just interpreting employment data relative to other peer schools. If you look at GULC's stats in comparison to schools outside of the T14, you'll find that its students fare much better.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby Ruxin1 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:15 pm

igo2northwestern wrote:
Ruxin1 wrote:I wouldn't use 26-100 for firms, I think 50+ is a better metric - I have a hard time believing working at a firm with 30 attorneys is going to pay a salary able to service 200k worth of debt.

The LST data doesn't give you the option of 50+, and if you look at the data, you'll find that the % at 26-100 firms is negligible. Same conclusions.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs

mvonh001 wrote:if the prospects are so abysmal then why is the school in the t14?(srs) and why do people choose to go there? What outcome can they realistically expect?

The T14 is the group of schools that has never left the top 14 US News rankings. And save UTexas in 2011, no other school has ever made it into the top 14.

GULC is no doubt a great place to attend - its employment prospects are still very good; I was just interpreting employment data relative to other peer schools. If you look at GULC's stats in comparison to schools outside of the T14, you'll find that its students fare much better.


Go to the ABA forms within LST and it makes that distinction...

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dingbat
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:24 pm

mvonh001 wrote:if the prospects are so abysmal then why is the school in the t14?(srs) and why do people choose to go there? What outcome can they realistically expect?

Georgetown is in the T14 because it consistently outperforms every school that's not in the T14. However, it also consistently underperforms the rest of the T14.
Basically, it sits solidly at 14, safely away from UCLA/USC/UT/Vanderbilt and not approaching DCNB

As an aside, last year it was tied for 14th with UT, if you really care about the rankings. Most people care more about placement.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Why the hate on Gtown?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:34 pm

From what I have seen and heard, GTown suffers from the fact that it's in DC.

Aside from GTown, every T14 located within a close proximity of a major metropolitan area is a major player there: the Ivy League + Stanford and NYU in NYC, NU and Chicago in Chicago, Stanford and Berkeley in CA. This allows students without pre law schools ties to those markets to be competitive there without needing top 1/3 grades. Both the schools and prospective students know this. In fact, a lot of students attend this schools assuming that they will end up in the local market.

GTown differs from this in that (1) top grades are required for the local market and (2) a lot of students intend to stay in dc without realizing that top grades are required to stay there. This leads to GTown's placement being lower because students choose to target DC when they should be targeting markets that they have pre-law school ties to.

Contrast this with Duke/UVA/Michigan. None of those schools have a large local market, so no students attend those schools thinking that they will end up at the local market. As a result, these schools don't have trouble getting many of those students to return to where they have ties to.

GTown can get you back to where you have ties to, but I wouldn't attend there with my sights only on DC or NYC. But then again, I would say the same thing for Duke/Michigan/UVA.




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