Best T14 for PI?

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whippersnappery
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Best T14 for PI?

Postby whippersnappery » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:48 pm

So, I want to go into PI and don't want to go outside T14. Which school(s) are best for PI?

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Monty The Dog
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby Monty The Dog » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Followed closely by whichever T14 gives you the largest scholarship.

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EvilClinton
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby EvilClinton » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:52 pm

HYS gives you the most options.

Anecdotally though I hear that NYU on the east coast and Berkeley on the west cost tend to have the most P/I oriented classes, connections, and professors.

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EvilClinton
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby EvilClinton » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:54 pm

Also look at which schools have the best LRAP. There are several threads about it but I would look into it on your own because schools update their LRAP programs every year.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby I.P. Daly » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:27 pm

Yale hosts Reblaw annually. It's a huge PI conference for students and professionals.

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DaleCooper
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby DaleCooper » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:50 pm

Anecdotally, it seems that NYU, Berkeley, Duke, and Georgetown try harder and have more resources.* That probably manifests less in terms of making it easier to get a PI/Government job (which are really two very different things) than it does making it more likely that you won't give up and just go BigLaw like the entire rest of your class.

I doubt any T14 outside of HYS (and maybe Columbia) really gives you an advantage in hiring outside of the city it's in (which is a real thing), but the peer pressure to just go BigLaw like everybody else (even at the above mentioned schools) is a real thing that is much more powerful than people think it's going to be.

That said: HYS is a no-brainer no matter what. And there's an argument for Columbia in the sense that they actually have crazy connections and resources that nobody at the school seems to use.


*Note: Just like absolutely all law schools have a diverse and collegial student body and totally not a competitive atmosphere at all, absolutely all law schools have tons of resources invested into PI/Government. But some have more than others. You can feel that out and listen for subtext when asking around.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:07 pm

Northeastern should also be added to this list. Despite their ranking, the school is almost entirely PI oriented. You're required to do at least four externships and they work really hard to place people in great PI organizations. I know several students who have succeeded in CA despite not having strong connections to the market based on the strength of their internships and how hard Northeastern works for their students.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:30 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:Northeastern should also be added to this list. Despite their ranking, the school is almost entirely PI oriented. You're required to do at least four externships and they work really hard to place people in great PI organizations. I know several students who have succeeded in CA despite not having strong connections to the market based on the strength of their internships and how hard Northeastern works for their students.


:lol:

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IAFG
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:32 pm

Monty The Dog wrote:Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Followed closely by whichever T14 gives you the largest scholarship has the best LRAP.

fixed, sorta, but really, there are no PI jobs, so just go get the biglaw training then lateral out like the PI orgs want you to.

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bk1
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:50 pm

IAFG wrote:
Monty The Dog wrote:Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Followed closely by whichever T14 gives you the largest scholarship has the best LRAP.

fixed, sorta, but really, there are no PI jobs, so just go get the biglaw training then lateral out like the PI orgs want you to.

But largest scholarship should still trump LRAP?

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IAFG
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:55 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Monty The Dog wrote:Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Followed closely by whichever T14 gives you the largest scholarship has the best LRAP.

fixed, sorta, but really, there are no PI jobs, so just go get the biglaw training then lateral out like the PI orgs want you to.

But largest scholarship should still trump LRAP?

Meh. Not really. Here's my reasoning: even if you end up doing a short stint in biglaw, which you'll have to probably, a really good LRAP program will let you bounce back to LRAP after starting in private practice (NU's does not). Having good LRAP for the long haul is probably more valuable than most scholarship offers (though I would have to crunch the numbers to come up with what price point the scholly is better).

But both PI and biglaw are snobby, so I would rather be coming from a school with better placement that I paid more for than a cheaper one with worse placement, and that goes double when LRAP is ultimately going to dig you out of your hole.

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dingbat
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:46 am

A point worth making is that NYU's PI versus Columbia's Biglaw placements are as much a product of self-selection at the 0L stage as it is a matter of school connections

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chris0805
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby chris0805 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:40 pm

1. Follow the best LRAP (which also loosely correlates with ranking) is generally good advice, but a large scholarship should not be discounted. First, a large scholarship may allow you to pay off your loans in less than 10 years, meaning that you have significantly more freedom to pursue non-legal jobs, non-PI jobs, or non-employment for a few years or forever. Second, most people underestimate the salaries of PI lawyers as they move up in their career. If you get a scholarship that has you only paying 10K a year in loans, than you also have more flexibility later in your career (i.e. switching jobs won't increase your debt payments by a huge amount... or at all).

2. The "X school is good for PI" has SOME truth to it, but it gets overstated. Amongst similarly situated schools (based on ranking and LRAP), find a place where you want to practice, find professors/clinics/externships in areas you're interested, find out where you feel comfortable based on visits and ASWs and go there. I think you should go HYS, then CCN, etc. the same you would go for BigLaw, but big scholarships (i.e. Full Tuition) might carry more weight unless you're gunning for DOJ Honors or something specific like that.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:16 pm

chris0805 wrote:1. Follow the best LRAP (which also loosely correlates with ranking) is generally good advice, but a large scholarship should not be discounted. First, a large scholarship may allow you to pay off your loans in less than 10 years, meaning that you have significantly more freedom to pursue non-legal jobs, non-PI jobs, or non-employment for a few years or forever. Second, most people underestimate the salaries of PI lawyers as they move up in their career. If you get a scholarship that has you only paying 10K a year in loans, than you also have more flexibility later in your career (i.e. switching jobs won't increase your debt payments by a huge amount... or at all).

2. The "X school is good for PI" has SOME truth to it, but it gets overstated. Amongst similarly situated schools (based on ranking and LRAP), find a place where you want to practice, find professors/clinics/externships in areas you're interested, find out where you feel comfortable based on visits and ASWs and go there. I think you should go HYS, then CCN, etc. the same you would go for BigLaw, but big scholarships (i.e. Full Tuition) might carry more weight unless you're gunning for DOJ Honors or something specific like that.

What this guy said.

crit_racer
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby crit_racer » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:54 am

Chicago traditionally is not a PI focused school, but their new LRAP is amazing and I guess there could be some advantage to the fact that not as many of your classmates will be shooting for PI gigs. I'd consider UChi if you can get in.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:23 pm

crit_racer wrote:Chicago traditionally is not a PI focused school, but their new LRAP is amazing and I guess there could be some advantage to the fact that not as many of your classmates will be shooting for PI gigs. I'd consider UChi if you can get in.


That's not really an advantage. If anything, it's a detriment as the school has less incentive to have PI focused classes and career services would not be as experienced in helping applicants through fellowships and other PI specific stuff.

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bedefan
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby bedefan » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:46 am

My advice is to take a close, careful look at how different schools' LRAPs work. Consider how much cost of living will set you back and see how much schools will loan you for cost of living, and find out if these loans will be covered by the school's LRAP. Cost of living is important to consider because a merit scholarship will not reach these expenses.

Another thing that's important is the amount of career advising resources the school devotes to public interest students. At HLS we have a whole separate career office (including a dedicated fellowships adviser, hugely important) for PI students.

And yes, do look at percentages of alumni who go into PI. Much more than BigLaw, landing a PI job depends on networking. A school with a lot of people who have gone into PI means an alumni network with a lot of potential contacts relevant to the practice area or geographic location you want to enter.

Good luck.

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DaleCooper
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby DaleCooper » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:47 am

bedefan wrote:At HLS we have a whole separate career office (including a dedicated fellowships adviser, hugely important) for PI students.


Fellowships?! HarvarTTT should stop cooking its employment figures and come clean with the fact that it can't place enough of its students in NLJ250. Law School is A Scam! Y w/ $$$ or DON'T GO!!!!!!!

:wink:

rad lulz
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby rad lulz » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:58 am

IAFG wrote:there are no PI jobs

Credited.



Paul Campos wrote:2,500 out of 44,500 2011 grads got public interest "jobs" either requiring or preferring a law degree. The quotes are to flag that 30% of these "jobs" were temporary (duration of less than one year) and 24% were part-time. This is in large part because law schools funded "jobs" for nearly 2000 of their own grads and almost all these were categorized as public interest positions. The majority of these were short-term, but some were fake "long-term" positions, that is, positions lasting exactly one year, and therefore categorized as long-term by NALP and the ABA.

So perhaps 1000-1200, i.e., 2-3%, of 2011 grads got real PI jobs. The vast majority of these were public defender positions. Public interest law firms hired a total of 130 2011 grads, i.e., an average of less than one grad per school.

Stats herehttp://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummChart_Classof2011.pdf

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:49 pm

Bump.

rad lulz
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Re: Best T14 for PI?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:55 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:Bump.

rad lulz wrote:
IAFG wrote:there are no PI jobs

Credited.



Paul Campos wrote:2,500 out of 44,<a href="tel:500 2011">500 2011</a> grads got public interest "jobs" either requiring or preferring a law degree. The quotes are to flag that 30% of these "jobs" were temporary (duration of less than one year) and 24% were part-time. This is in large part because law schools funded "jobs" for nearly 2000 of their own grads and almost all these were categorized as public interest positions. The majority of these were short-term, but some were fake "long-term" positions, that is, positions lasting exactly one year, and therefore categorized as long-term by NALP and the ABA.

So perhaps 1000-1200, i.e., 2-3%, of 2011 grads got real PI jobs. The vast majority of these were public defender positions. Public interest law firms hired a total of <a href="tel:130 2011">130 2011</a> grads, i.e., an average of less than one grad per school.

Stats herehttp://www.nalp.org/uploads/NatlSummChart_Classof2011.pdf




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