H over Columbia any day of the week? Forum

[kwais]

First I had no idea there were so many damn Columbia grads on here and that they were so vehement about them being "basically the same as Harvard". Normally I'm not a fan of that form of argument but it's just a bit too coincidental that EVERYONE arguing that point goes to Columbia.

Second, that whole "80 & of Columbia got a firm offer" thing is really only something that's been repeated by Columbia/NYU students online. It doesn't match up with the nlj numbers (or anything else) and its nothing more than internet hearsay.

Third, one argument technique that I notice a very large percentage of TLS Columbia posters like to use when it comes to employment prospects in general--but particularly in regard to how they compare to HYS (well either a technique or they can't read very well but I'll assume it's the former since they got into CLS) is that when people ask them about how CLS compares to other schools in placement they ignore any and everything people ask about non-NYC biglaw jobs. It's very weird. Even when people specifically say that they want to know about how job prospects compare between CLS and another school they never respond with anything other than how many people get big NYC firm jobs. This last guy is a prime example. Even though several people specifically said that Columbia is no different than the rest of the top 14 for NON-NYC BIGLAW jobs he STILL is talking about how NYC firms are hiring far more at Columbia than UVA. The next thing you know he'll be telling us how remarkable it is that more California firms are hiring from Boalt than Georgetown.


Bottom line for any job that ISN"T AT A NYC BIGLAW FIRM, YES WE KNOW THAT COLUMBIA PUTS A LOT OF PEOPLE INTO FIRMS IN THE CITY WHERE IT IS LOCATED ,Columbia is NOT close to Harvard. Harvard blows Columbia out of the water for DC firm jobs, California firms jobs, Chicago firm jobs, Texas firm jobs, and any other non NYC market. YES COLUMBIA IS PRETTY CLOSE FOR NYC NO ONE IS SAYING THAT IT ISN'T. But Harvard is also far better for the DOJ and any federal government work. Harvard is also in another league for federal clerkship jobs. But again everyone is WELL aware that Columbia puts a lot of people into firms in its home market---you don't have to keep reminding us of that lol.
^

you have this horrendous tendency to write as if you are some referee in arguments. Always "wow, I didn't realize there were so many uninformed people" or "one argument technique I've noticed" or some other causal observer type shit. Listen, some people agree with you and many don't. This question is very subjective and there are reason to make either decision. And the amount of straw men in your bullshit is astounding. Columbia equal? No fucking way. What people are reacting to here is the Harvard or Columbia for FREE, asshole.
If you have a point to make, make it. But your above-it-all observations make you sound like a loser.
Oh and what you call "internet hearsay" is also a list handed out that tells students exactly which firms everyone from last year's OCI class went to.

[kwais]

Even so, I'd rather graduate with little debt, and take my chances on the strength CLS's reach outside of NYC, whatever it may be. Sure, its not H-level reach, but relative to almost anything else, it is pretty damn good. So yeah, I'd take big $$ at CLS over sticker at H pretty much anytime, unless I was so deadset on the prestige of the H name.

One of the most ironic things about this whole thread is that this scenario it isn't particularly relevent. Harvard does nothing but need-based aid. So if you are truly in financial position where you need scholarship money there's no way in hell you're paying sticker. The only people who face Hamilton vs. Harvard full price are well off people who could pay sticker for Harvard without a problem and who have sky high numbers. I.e wealthy WASPS.

and this is worst one yet. Need scholarship? Is that how you think it works? Kids with 180s get Hamiltons who also have lots of cash in the bank. They would get NOTHING at Harvard. Do you seriously thing CCN gives out their big schollys to needy kids?

[fatduck]

Even so, I'd rather graduate with little debt, and take my chances on the strength CLS's reach outside of NYC, whatever it may be. Sure, its not H-level reach, but relative to almost anything else, it is pretty damn good. So yeah, I'd take big $$ at CLS over sticker at H pretty much anytime, unless I was so deadset on the prestige of the H name.

One of the most ironic things about this whole thread is that this scenario it isn't particularly relevent. Harvard does nothing but need-based aid. So if you are truly in financial position where you need scholarship money there's no way in hell you're paying sticker. The only people who face Hamilton vs. Harvard full price are well off people who could pay sticker for Harvard without a problem and who have sky high numbers. I.e wealthy WASPS.

and this is worst one yet. Need scholarship? Is that how you think it works? Kids with 180s get Hamiltons who also have lots of cash in the bank. They would get NOTHING at Harvard. Do you seriously thing CCN gives out their big schollys to needy kids?

his point was that anyone who would be paying full price at harvard is so wealthy that sticker tuition is meaningless.

still woefully uninformed, but not quite in the way you've characterized it.

[BruceWayne]

Even so, I'd rather graduate with little debt, and take my chances on the strength CLS's reach outside of NYC, whatever it may be. Sure, its not H-level reach, but relative to almost anything else, it is pretty damn good. So yeah, I'd take big $$ at CLS over sticker at H pretty much anytime, unless I was so deadset on the prestige of the H name.

One of the most ironic things about this whole thread is that this scenario it isn't particularly relevent. Harvard does nothing but need-based aid. So if you are truly in financial position where you need scholarship money there's no way in hell you're paying sticker. The only people who face Hamilton vs. Harvard full price are well off people who could pay sticker for Harvard without a problem and who have sky high numbers. I.e wealthy WASPS.

and this is worst one yet. Need scholarship? Is that how you think it works? Kids with 180s get Hamiltons who also have lots of cash in the bank. They would get NOTHING at Harvard. Do you seriously thing CCN gives out their big schollys to needy kids?

You have REALLY bad reading comprehension. What is wrong with you? THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. Hamiltons are based on NUMBERS ONLY. Whereas Harvard's aid is based on need. In other words, the only way an individual would have a Hamilton but face sticker at Harvard is if they have HIGH NUMBERS AND THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF MONEY I.E THEY DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF FINANCIAL NEED. I specifically mentioned that CCN DON'T DO NEED BASED AID and that's why this situation isn't likely to arise for a person for whom it would really matter. It's like you're so obsessed with telling everyone how Columbia is so great and almost the same as Harvard that you aren't even attempting to make coherent statements anymore. I guess that does say a lot about the Columbia experience but you need to calm down.

[JamMasterJ]

From H's loan site

In 2011-2012, approximately 50% of J.D. student aid applicants (about 44% of J.D students overall) qualified for Law School grant assistance and a "base loan package" (explained below), while the remaining 50% received assistance in the form of loans only (Federal Stafford and Supplemental Loans).

[skers]

I'm glad the mere mention of Columbia turned into another opportunity for BruceWayne to grind his t6 ax.

[BruceWayne]

I'm glad the mere mention of Columbia turned into another opportunity for BruceWayne to grind his t6 ax.

It's pathetic how many people on here, like you, care more about trying to convince someone of the strength of the "Top 6" and swing their dick about how awesome US News rankings are over a legitimate question that someone might want a truthful answer to. A person could EASILY miss out on the job they want by attending Columbia over Harvard in this economy. But it's more important to a lot of people that they tout how awesome their school is. HTH. What's worse is that there are loads of 1Ls and Columbia admits doing it at that. Hopefully someone with a 3.2 at Columbia interviewing at DC firms can come chat with you about how awesome being at a top 6 is after they are shut out of DC firm jobs.

[JamMasterJ]

I'm glad the mere mention of Columbia turned into another opportunity for BruceWayne to grind his t6 ax.

It's pathetic how many people on here, like you, care more about trying to convince someone of the strength of the "Top 6" and swing their dick about how awesome US News rankings are over a legitimate question that someone might want a truthful answer to. A person could EASILY miss out on the job they want by attending Columbia over Harvard in this economy. But it's more important to a lot of people that they tout how awesome their school is. HTH. What's worse is that there are loads of 1Ls and Columbia admits doing it at that. Hopefully someone with a 3.2 at Columbia interviewing at DC firms can come chat with you about how awesome being at a top 6 is after they are shut out of DC firm jobs.

TBF, a similarly positioned H student isn't likely to do a whole lot, if at all, better in DC, and both are still highly likely to get NYC.

[ajr]

H over Columbia any day of the week?

Yep, pretty much. Unless your SO is in New York (Ginsburg did it for her husband and looks like she did OK).

[kwais]

Even so, I'd rather graduate with little debt, and take my chances on the strength CLS's reach outside of NYC, whatever it may be. Sure, its not H-level reach, but relative to almost anything else, it is pretty damn good. So yeah, I'd take big $$ at CLS over sticker at H pretty much anytime, unless I was so deadset on the prestige of the H name.

One of the most ironic things about this whole thread is that this scenario it isn't particularly relevent. Harvard does nothing but need-based aid. So if you are truly in financial position where you need scholarship money there's no way in hell you're paying sticker. The only people who face Hamilton vs. Harvard full price are well off people who could pay sticker for Harvard without a problem and who have sky high numbers. I.e wealthy WASPS.

and this is worst one yet. Need scholarship? Is that how you think it works? Kids with 180s get Hamiltons who also have lots of cash in the bank. They would get NOTHING at Harvard. Do you seriously thing CCN gives out their big schollys to needy kids?

You have REALLY bad reading comprehension. What is wrong with you? THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. Hamiltons are based on NUMBERS ONLY. Whereas Harvard's aid is based on need. In other words, the only way an individual would have a Hamilton but face sticker at Harvard is if they have HIGH NUMBERS AND THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF MONEY I.E THEY DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF FINANCIAL NEED. I specifically mentioned that CCN DON'T DO NEED BASED AID and that's why this situation isn't likely to arise for a person for whom it would really matter. It's like you're so obsessed with telling everyone how Columbia is so great and almost the same as Harvard that you aren't even attempting to make coherent statements anymore. I guess that does say a lot about the Columbia experience but you need to calm down.

never said C was as good as H. Go find where I did.
My reading comp is right on, read it all again.
Calm down? You are literally foaming at the mouth in this last post and it's really funny.
Y you so mad Bruce?

[skers]

I'm glad the mere mention of Columbia turned into another opportunity for BruceWayne to grind his t6 ax.

It's pathetic how many people on here, like you, care more about trying to convince someone of the strength of the "Top 6" and swing their dick about how awesome US News rankings are over a legitimate question that someone might want a truthful answer to. A person could EASILY miss out on the job they want by attending Columbia over Harvard in this economy. But it's more important to a lot of people that they tout how awesome their school is. HTH. What's worse is that there are loads of 1Ls and Columbia admits doing it at that. Hopefully someone with a 3.2 at Columbia interviewing at DC firms can come chat with you about how awesome being at a top 6 is after they are shut out of DC firm jobs.

It's incredible how grievously your butt is hurt over this topic. Note that the conversation was just based on whether H was worth it any day over Columbia. It wasn't is Columbia worth it over UVA, Duke, Michigan or NW. You're the one who instantly launched into your tired bit about the t6. We're the ones who are obsessed about the topic? Lol ok bro.

[BruceWayne]

never said C was as good as H. Go find where I did.
My reading comp is right on, read it all again.
Calm down? You are literally foaming at the mouth in this last post and it's really funny.
Y you so mad Bruce?

Again awful reading comp--I never claimed that you said C was as good as H--I specifically said in the last post that you're trying to convey that it's almost as good as Harvard and quite frankly it's not. See the following: "It's like you're so obsessed with telling everyone how Columbia is so great and almost the same as Harvard that you aren't even attempting to make coherent statements anymore."

But the fact that you ended your arguments with lame internet cool guy statements means you've run out of legit things to say.

It's incredible how grievously your butt is hurt over this topic. Note that the conversation was just based on whether H was worth it any day over Columbia. It wasn't is Columbia worth it over UVA, Duke, Michigan or NW. You're the one who instantly launched into your tired bit about the t6. We're the ones who are obsessed about the topic? Lol ok bro.

What are you even talking about? My whole point is about whether H is worth it any day over CLS. I guess you just saw the phrase top 6 and your small dick made you want to jump in and brag about how you attend one of the top 6--lol like totally cool bro. I'm really happy that you attend NYU/Columbia and love it--but shut up about it at this point. No one cares bro/dude/whatever 20 year WASP guys like to call themselves these days.

On a more serious note the number of 1Ls giving out career advice is just staggering. You all really have no idea what you're talking about and should just refrain from answering these kinds of questions.

[JamMasterJ]

never said C was as good as H. Go find where I did.
My reading comp is right on, read it all again.
Calm down? You are literally foaming at the mouth in this last post and it's really funny.
Y you so mad Bruce?

Again awful reading comp--I never claimed that you said C was as good as H--I specifically said in the last post that you're trying to convey that it's almost as good as Harvard and quite frankly it's not. See the following: "It's like you're so obsessed with telling everyone how Columbia is so great and almost the same as Harvard that you aren't even attempting to make coherent statements anymore."

But the fact that you ended your arguments with lame internet cool guy statements means you've run out of legit things to say.

It's incredible how grievously your butt is hurt over this topic. Note that the conversation was just based on whether H was worth it any day over Columbia. It wasn't is Columbia worth it over UVA, Duke, Michigan or NW. You're the one who instantly launched into your tired bit about the t6. We're the ones who are obsessed about the topic? Lol ok bro.

What are you even talking about? My whole point is about whether H is worth it any day over CLS. I guess you just saw the phrase top 6 and your small dick made you want to jump in and brag about how you attend one of the top 6--lol like totally cool bro. I'm really happy that you attend NYU/Columbia and love it--but shut up about it at this point. No one cares bro/dude/whatever 20 year WASP guys like to call themselves these days.

On a more serious note the number of 1Ls giving out career advice is just staggering. You all really have no idea what you're talking about and should just refrain from answering these kinds of questions.

[BruceWayne]

^^ Yes because responding to ignorance with ignorance is just ridiculous. I'm sorry I insulted your internet friends.

[JamMasterJ]

^^ Yes because responding to ignorance with ignorance is just ridiculous. I'm sorry I insulted your internet friends.

doesn't make it any less hypocritical

[thelawyler]

herp derp.

[fatduck]

From H's loan site

In 2011-2012, approximately 50% of J.D. student aid applicants (about 44% of J.D students overall) qualified for Law School grant assistance and a "base loan package" (explained below), while the remaining 50% received assistance in the form of loans only (Federal Stafford and Supplemental Loans).

just shows that all the rich kids go to harvard, amirite?

[skers]

What are you even talking about? My whole point is about whether H is worth it any day over CLS. I guess you just saw the phrase top 6 and your small dick made you want to jump in and brag about how you attend one of the top 6--lol like totally cool bro. I'm really happy that you attend NYU/Columbia and love it--but shut up about it at this point. No one cares bro/dude/whatever 20 year WASP guys like to call themselves these days.

On a more serious note the number of 1Ls giving out career advice is just staggering. You all really have no idea what you're talking about and should just refrain from answering these kinds of questions.

Again bro, no one was even talking about t6 prospects until you decided to twice bitch about the "mythical" CCN tier. It was out of the scope of the conversation, you're the one bringing it up, yet we're the ones obsessed with rankings and our mythical tier. Again, lol ok bro.

[EdgarWinter]

BruceWayne your arrogance is incredible. HARVARD GIVES FINANCIAL NEED SO NOBODY NEEDS TO TAKE SCHOLARSHIPS is an incredibly stupid argument.

Unless you are either
1) Old, or
2) from incredible depths of poverty, or
3) both

you probably aren't getting more than shit. And by "shit" I mean "aid that does not allow you to avoid $150,000+ debt upon graduation."

I'm somebody who would have gotten zero aid at H but whose personal circumstances are such that I was NOT comfortable with the idea of relying on extracting hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my parents. There are lots of people like me. Some of us get Rubys/Hamiltons/NYU-full-rides etc. and reasonably decide that mortgaging the next decade of our lives is not worth a name on a piece of paper.

Also LOL at your idea that you are some legal market expert. You're not. You joined this site in 2010, which means that you are too inexperienced to know shit, just like the rest of us on this forum.

I also very much doubt anybody who takes a Hamilton (or any other T6 full-ride) over Harvard is going to kick themselves when they are 30 and not still staring down a six-figure loan statement. There is a limit to the utility of prestige-whoring. I can see good arguments for Y/S (and H only to a lesser extent quite frankly) over such a full-ride but pretending that it's a clear-cut debate is the mark of somebody who has never been in a position to actually think about it.

[breadbucket]

If you exclusively are interested in NYC biglaw and have no connections to secondary markets, you are most likely in a position where going to CLS makes sense. There are probably not many people who are getting into H and not getting a bit more money at CLS/NYU. Though, CLS does suck for placement in Pearson Hardman.

Otherwise, Harvard is probably better barring a pretty substantial money difference.

Criminally under-rated post.

I hear they only hire from Harvard, otherwise you have to be like a genius.

[JamMasterJ]

BruceWayne your arrogance is incredible. HARVARD GIVES FINANCIAL NEED SO NOBODY NEEDS TO TAKE SCHOLARSHIPS is an incredibly stupid argument.

Unless you are either
1) Old, or
2) from incredible depths of poverty, or
3) both

you probably aren't getting more than shit. And by "shit" I mean "aid that does not allow you to avoid $150,000+ debt upon graduation."

I'm somebody who would have gotten zero aid at H but whose personal circumstances are such that I was NOT comfortable with the idea of relying on extracting hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my parents. There are lots of people like me. Some of us get Rubys/Hamiltons/NYU-full-rides etc. and reasonably decide that mortgaging the next decade of our lives is not worth a name on a piece of paper.

Also LOL at your idea that you are some legal market expert. You're not. You joined this site in 2010, which means that you are too inexperienced to know shit, just like the rest of us on this forum.

I also very much doubt anybody who takes a Hamilton (or any other T6 full-ride) over Harvard is going to kick themselves when they are 30 and not still staring down a six-figure loan statement. There is a limit to the utility of prestige-whoring. I can see good arguments for Y/S (and H only to a lesser extent quite frankly) over such a full-ride but pretending that it's a clear-cut debate is the mark of somebody who has never been in a position to actually think about it.

as much as I disagree with Bruce, this is an incredibly fucking stupid argument

[vanwinkle]

Folks should try to get away from bashing each other, and back to OP:

in what circumstances is it advisable to pick columbia over harvard if accepted at both, and nominal money at columbia?

Generally, I would recommend CLS over HLS only with a full-ride (Hamilton).

Once you get down to a half-tuition scholarship or less, you're looking at relatively similar amounts of debt anyway. Assuming $40K tuition and $20K COL each year, Columbia with a half-tuition scholarship would still require $120K in loans, only $60K less than attending HLS. "Half-tuition" thus only reduces your actual loan amount by a third, with smaller scholarships making the gap between the two schools even less.

But either way you're still at least $120K in debt. Bimodal distribution of salaries means that you're most likely to either make $160K or $40-65K when you graduate. If it's $160K, then the extra $60K (or less) was probably worth it since choosing HLS over CLS made you more likely to get the $160K job. If it's not, then otherwise you can use IBR and have the same monthly payment on $120K or $180K of loans (at $40K/yr, you'd have a $290 monthly payment either way; at $65K/yr, you'd have a $600 payment).

So, like I said, unless you have a full ride, I wouldn't recommend CLS over HLS.

[unc0mm0n1]

Newsflash: secondary markets don't hire very many people. If you want to work in BigLaw you better be prepared to work in New York. If you aren't willing to work in New York, don't spend much, if any, money on tuition. If you absolutely must end up in Atlanta after you law school you are just as stupid for spending 150K on Duke as you would be for spending 200K for Columbia.

To the OP's question, yeah pretty much, cuz it's super sweet to say you went to Harvard. And BW's one comment re: Harvard vs. Columbia is credited; Columbia doesn't give you anything that Harvard can't.

News flash: I know people at H who are below median and have offers to multiple secondary markets. Truthfully I don't know anybody who struck out. Median people are getting V10 offers. If you struck out at H you either

a) had multiple LP's. Which is hard to do.

b) Bid terribly. (i.e. Below median but only bid D.C. and V10 or only on a very insular market)

c) Are awkward and a terrible interviewer.

Even if those things do apply to you, there should be no way you can't hustle and find something through mass mailing.

Lastly if everything else fails you still have programs like PMF that every HLS grad that applied in recent years has been certified. And if you're an HLS PMF you're in demand. Yeah making between 50k-70k isn't a ton of money but with LRAP it'll get you a decent living.

I don't know that much about Columbia I only know 4 or 5 people there and they seem to be doing pretty well but they are all working in NYC. There are people here working everywhere from Seattle down to Miami without that many ties or great grades. Now if we're talking full ride vs Full sticker, I'd say screw all of the advantages and I'd be at CLS but chances are you won't get a full ride at CLS and you won't pay full sticker at H.

[JCougar]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... umbia.html

Be wary of attending Columbia Law. They have gotten busted twice in the last year inflating their placement data. Most recently, they stuffed 8.3% of their class into school-funded "jobs" for a year after graduation. Earlier this year, there were discrepancies with the percentage of their class they reported as working in Biglaw, too.

[Tiago Splitter]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... umbia.html

Be wary of attending Columbia Law. They have gotten busted twice in the last year inflating their placement data. Most recently, they stuffed 8.3% of their class into school-funded "jobs" for a year after graduation. Earlier this year, there were discrepancies with the percentage of their class they reported as working in Biglaw, too.

Columbia did respond to the latter allegation:

http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inqui ... of-ny-post

For the wary looking for the most recent employment info:

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272