Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

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1TLStudent
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Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Tue May 22, 2012 6:26 pm

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Last edited by 1TLStudent on Tue May 22, 2012 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rebexness
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby rebexness » Tue May 22, 2012 6:47 pm

Last edited by rebexness on Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 22, 2012 6:48 pm

It would be more helpful if you stated your current options along with the total 3 year cost of attendance for each.

1TLStudent wrote:My location rankings are such; 1- NY. 2- Boston. 3(T)- LA/DC. 5- Chicago.

I am going for M&A/Big Law (however, I do not want this to be a factor in anyone's recommendations please). Please answer as if I am undecided on career path.


Why? This is one of the most important considerations. You are not getting NYC/Bos/LA/DC biglaw out of Illinois. You have correctly surmised that the Chicago market is absolutely savaged.

1TLStudent wrote:5- Loans will start requiring payments 6 months after I graduate in August and if I wait and retake I would want to finally have a little bit of time where all I have to worry about is LSATs so payments would become a worry relatively soon after LSAT test date when I would want to focus on finishing up my apps.
6- I have over 75k in debt from my UG and want to start making real money ASAP . I was hoping to be out of debt by 30,31.


This is a horrible reason to attend law school right now. It seems to be more common than usual this cycle. You would be adding another how much to your UG debt? 130k? That's 225K in debt with a likely salary at the end of it of probably 60K.

otnemem
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby otnemem » Tue May 22, 2012 6:55 pm

6- I have over 75k in debt from my UG


The options you currently have are not worth it to begin with in my opinion. Stack 75k of debt on top of them and they certainly aren't. Retake, although to be honest, I'm not sure if you'll end up with an option that makes sense even if you do improve on the LSAT. I don't mean to be harsh, but a ton of UG debt and a sub 3.0 almost always make law school a bad idea these days. Your best case scenario would be getting a 170+, ED, and then pay sticker at a lower t14. That would result with you graduating with almost 350k in debt....not something I would recommend.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue May 22, 2012 6:55 pm

1TLStudent wrote:Throwaway account. First things first, these are my app cycle results;

U Penn, U Virginia, Boston U, Fordham, UC Irvine: Denied
George Mason, Villanova: Waitlisted
U Illinois: Accepted off WL with 15k/yr up from initial offer of 11k/yr.
Chicago-Kent (T2): Accepted with 13k/yr
U San Francisco (T2-T3): Accepted with 21k/yr

Please note that I had to apply before my 2nd LSAT score were released, which is why I have some schools listed that would seem absurd to apply to given my stats. I also was limited this cycle to schools that had deadlines past 2/1/12.

I have a 2.75 LSAC GPA, probably will be at 2.8-2.9 by the end of summer when I graduate UG. Double major; POSC and PHIL/LWSO. Major LSAC GPAs are 3.122 and 3.0. I have received a 3.5 or higher the past 3 quarters, albeit taking only 8 units for the last 2. I have taken the LSAT twice, and received a 155 (12/10) and 166 (2/12). I am registered to take it in again in June. My apps were all worked on after my second LSAT, giving me less than a month for most (including personal statements, etc). I applied on the deadline day for all schools except Fordham and Illinois. I did those about 15 days before the deadline.

Here is my question;

Should I accept Illinois, place down a seat deposit and take the LSAT in June I already registered for (only will have 4 weeks additional studying total) and reapply next cycle if I get 173+/appeal my rejections if I get 167+/haggle for a bit more $ if its 167+/just go to Illinois with 166 or lower?
-OR-
Should I wait to retake in October, forgo the scholarship and hope that applying early with hopefully a 5-7 point increase & more than a total of 3 weeks to craft PS and fill out apps will get me into an "elite" law school (USC or better)?

Since I was waitlisted at both Illinois and George Mason and rejected from all other T1 schools I applied to, I am hesitant to give up the scholarship even though I am certain I can pull at least a 5 point increase if I wait until October (I didn't study for the first LSAT & that score was lower than my diagnostic so please don't let my first score affect your recommendation if you feel that the increase is unlikely from the 2nd to the 3rd).

My location rankings are such; 1- NY. 2- Boston. 3(T)- LA/DC. 5- Chicago.

I am going for M&A/Big Law (however, I do not want this to be a factor in anyone's recommendations please). Please answer as if I am undecided on career path.

Here are a couple reasons I am worried about taking the $ at Illinois:

1- Their scandals in the past 3 years and the negative impact it potentially will have on employment
2- The uncertainty of what the caliber of student will be admitted to Illinois this year onwards due to the scandal’s affect on applicant pool and the negative impact this will potentially have on employment.
3- The fact that they had roughly 105 firms represented at OCI 2 years ago, but only 70 last year.
4- Last year, when their median LSAT was only 163, they gave out scholarships to every student that attended with a minimum of 8k and an average of 20k.
5- They had to give out 20k average to every incoming 1L (According to ex-dean Pless in a thread on TLS right before the onset of this application cycle) just to get a 163 median LSAT and that was BEFORE the bigger of the 2 scandals that hit them in the past 3 years.
6- The general drop in legal employment in Chicago and the fact that Chicago biglaw, in particular, is increasingly harder to access from outside of NU and U Chicago.
7- The general consensus that law schools factor scholarship budget into tuition costs, so that ppl that pay sticker are actually "paying" part of someone's education and (my own) presumption that they are probably giving out more scholarships this year than last year. At best 8k scholly is the technical "sticker" price (assuming scholly money stays same and doesn't increase, which I think it will). This coupled with the 7k out-of-state difference in tuition essentially negates my scholarship completely and makes me a sticker payer. (It would be the same as Illinois reducing tuition 15k to entice applicants and me going there at sticker -the analogy holds up since Pless stated everyone received a scholarship. If you've been doing too much LSAT studying and want to argue that the out-of-state tuition shouldn't be included in my math, then please just consider moving costs from Cali to be an equalizer in that respect).
8- With Illinois being one of the most expensive public schools in the country I'll still end up with 150k debt from law school after scholly. This is in addition to 75k UG loan debt.

Here are a couple of reasons I am afraid to give up the money and acceptance;

1- What if I don't increase my LSAT enough to get into any schools in the T30 and Illinois would be the best school I am accepted to in the end anyways?
2- What if I don't even get into a school as good as Illinois next cycle (since I was WL’d there and at George Mason, I am not sure how far away from an accept I am there or at any of the better/peer schools.)
3- What if something in my application would prevent me from even obtaining admission to a better school (petty theft charge at 17 which was expunged and a sub-3.0 gpa) so me reapplying is a horrible idea with not nearly as much upside as I'd like to believe?
4- Wasting another year after spending 6 at my UG (no CC, just on the “Van Wilder” track). I'll be 28.5 when I graduate if I wait another year.
5- Loans will start requiring payments 6 months after I graduate in August and if I wait and retake I would want to finally have a little bit of time where all I have to worry about is LSATs so payments would become a worry relatively soon after LSAT test date when I would want to focus on finishing up my apps.
6- I have over 75k in debt from my UG and want to start making real money ASAP . I was hoping to be out of debt by 30,31.
7- I won’t be able to actively search for a full-time job until after LSAT/apps are complete. So unless I get this LSAT tutoring job which I auditioned for today (I already failed this audition 3 months ago so I’m not going to get my hopes up), I am looking to be in a financial crunch come October end.
8- I passed the deadline for LSAT date change and will have to pay for the LSAT once again (On the list due to annoyance rather than weight of financial burden - I have already paid for 2 LSATs ($300), 1 test date change ($60), 1 test site change ($60), 1 cancelled LSAT ($150) and the current LSAT I am registered for ($150) that is past the deadline for changing the date so I would have to simply cancel).

I am not sure if I am just justifying procrastination or if it is truly the right move to make by reapplying next year with everything considered. I’ve pretty much listed all relevant details of my life so that anyone who has the time can help me make an informed decision. I did not include a poll because it would probably lead the majority of TLSers to simply click “retake reapply” without reading the specifics of my situation. For those who do, I thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


So, with UG debt and Law debt, you are looking at 225k....

You should take a seriously look at what your life would be like IF you got big law, in terms of loan payments and potential future expenses (marriage, kids, house, etc) , factor in that most people do not like working in big law, don't work there for more than a few years, and that everyone there works massive hours, then realize that this is your best case scenario coming out of UIUC and that you will very, very likely not get big law anyway.

IMO you shouldn't retake or don't go, but if you have different career/personal goals than me I can def respect that.

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Ludo!
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby Ludo! » Tue May 22, 2012 6:58 pm

Sounds like retaking and waiting a year is your best option. I go to Illinois, love it, don't think the scandal will have any effect on hiring. But if you're biglaw or bust and you don't want Chicago, then illinois isn't the right school.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Tue May 22, 2012 7:19 pm

timbs4339 wrote:It would be more helpful if you stated your current options along with the total 3 year cost of attendance for each.

1TLStudent wrote:My location rankings are such; 1- NY. 2- Boston. 3(T)- LA/DC. 5- Chicago.

I am going for M&A/Big Law (however, I do not want this to be a factor in anyone's recommendations please). Please answer as if I am undecided on career path.


Why? This is one of the most important considerations. You are not getting NYC/Bos/LA/DC biglaw out of Illinois. You have correctly surmised that the Chicago market is absolutely savaged.


Solely because I already know the most popular/correct answer with big law considered

timbs4339 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:5- Loans will start requiring payments 6 months after I graduate in August and if I wait and retake I would want to finally have a little bit of time where all I have to worry about is LSATs so payments would become a worry relatively soon after LSAT test date when I would want to focus on finishing up my apps.
6- I have over 75k in debt from my UG and want to start making real money ASAP . I was hoping to be out of debt by 30,31.


This is a horrible reason to attend law school right now. It seems to be more common than usual this cycle. You would be adding another how much to your UG debt? 130k? That's 225K in debt with a likely salary at the end of it of probably 60K.


The debt isn't making me want to attend law school, just not want to wait another year. In regards to the loan repayments, I do not want to have to worry about repayment during LSAT/app time. That, IMO, makes it a con on the waiting side since the benefit of waiting is a stronger lsat score/stronger apps but this would adversely affect it, however slight. That is why it is closer to the bottom too

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Tue May 22, 2012 7:22 pm

otnemem wrote:
6- I have over 75k in debt from my UG


The options you currently have are not worth it to begin with in my opinion. Stack 75k of debt on top of them and they certainly aren't. Retake, although to be honest, I'm not sure if you'll end up with an option that makes sense even if you do improve on the LSAT. I don't mean to be harsh, but a ton of UG debt and a sub 3.0 almost always make law school a bad idea these days. Your best case scenario would be getting a 170+, ED, and then pay sticker at a lower t14. That would result with you graduating with almost 350k in debt....not something I would recommend.


I agree it's an extremely unfavorable position to be in, however, what most ppl see as the only path left open after law school (soulless big law work) due to accruing that much debt, I see as one of the only few paths I wanted to walk down to begin with.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Tue May 22, 2012 7:26 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
So, with UG debt and Law debt, you are looking at 225k....

You should take a seriously look at what your life would be like IF you got big law, in terms of loan payments and potential future expenses (marriage, kids, house, etc) , factor in that most people do not like working in big law, don't work there for more than a few years, and that everyone there works massive hours, then realize that this is your best case scenario coming out of UIUC and that you will very, very likely not get big law anyway.

IMO you shouldn't retake or don't go, but if you have different career/personal goals than me I can def respect that.


do you mean I should retake or dont go? I do have a few other paths I am interested in pursuing but I'm not going to make a final decision until I take appropriate courses during LS. As it stands, big law is most appealing.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Tue May 22, 2012 7:33 pm

rebexness wrote:If you can bump your LSAT 2-4 more points you can look at the really splitter friendly schools, who may pay dearly for said LSAT score. Waiting a year for 50k more in scholarship money sucks, but seems like a way smarter decision.

Retaking in June (IF you have been seriously prepping) or waiting until October, is TCR.

Plus gives you plenty of time to construct really solid apps and apply early in the cycle. That little GPA bump will really help you.

With that much UG debt you are going to almost NEED biglaw. So you need to give yourself the best opportunity to either get a school that can get you there, or dangle some serious cash in front of you.



Ludovico Technique wrote:Sounds like retaking and waiting a year is your best option. I go to Illinois, love it, don't think the scandal will have any effect on hiring. But if you're biglaw or bust and you don't want Chicago, then illinois isn't the right school.


I agree with both of you about retake and reapplying. I think it's just the uncertainty associated with waiting and reapplying as opposed to the comfort and certainty of having everything ready to move forward is what's causing the majority of my hesitation. Before I had completed thoroughly researching everything I was pretty pumped about Illinois and already began looking at apartments. However, there are so many uncertainties.

Ludovico- I'm glad your OCI, etc hasn't been adversely affected. I honestly did not expect it to until the upcoming 1L class begins OCI because firms will take note if the school began relaxing their admissions standards to accommodate for the shift in applicant pool credentials. Best of luck at Illinois I might still end up seeing you there in Fall!

timbs4339
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 22, 2012 9:10 pm

1TLStudent wrote:timbs4339 wrote:
It would be more helpful if you stated your current options along with the total 3 year cost of attendance for each.

1TLStudent wrote:
My location rankings are such; 1- NY. 2- Boston. 3(T)- LA/DC. 5- Chicago.

I am going for M&A/Big Law (however, I do not want this to be a factor in anyone's recommendations please). Please answer as if I am undecided on career path.


Why? This is one of the most important considerations. You are not getting NYC/Bos/LA/DC biglaw out of Illinois. You have correctly surmised that the Chicago market is absolutely savaged.


Solely because I already know the most popular/correct answer with big law considered


If you know that you probably won't get biglaw I see even less reason to go this year. You are basically trading a few months of uncertainty and financial struggle now (if you go on IBR and get a min wage job you'll have plenty of time to study) for the crushing 2+ years of uncertainty between striking out at OCI and graduating without a job or graduating with a job that pays 50-60K and like I said, over 225K in debt.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Wed May 23, 2012 1:34 am

timbs4339 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:timbs4339 wrote:
It would be more helpful if you stated your current options along with the total 3 year cost of attendance for each.

1TLStudent wrote:
My location rankings are such; 1- NY. 2- Boston. 3(T)- LA/DC. 5- Chicago.

I am going for M&A/Big Law (however, I do not want this to be a factor in anyone's recommendations please). Please answer as if I am undecided on career path.


Why? This is one of the most important considerations. You are not getting NYC/Bos/LA/DC biglaw out of Illinois. You have correctly surmised that the Chicago market is absolutely savaged.


Solely because I already know the most popular/correct answer with big law considered


If you know that you probably won't get biglaw I see even less reason to go this year. You are basically trading a few months of uncertainty and financial struggle now (if you go on IBR and get a min wage job you'll have plenty of time to study) for the crushing 2+ years of uncertainty between striking out at OCI and graduating without a job or graduating with a job that pays 50-60K and like I said, over 225K in debt.

Edit
I agree with you about a retake as the best option. however I don't believe that big law probably won't happen. I'm almost confident I can find my way into it from any non-TTT. I'm heavily leaning towards retake tho but I wanted to make sure it was the right move and I wasn't just convincing myself that it was the right move. I'm 80% on my decision. Thanks TLSers

CanadianWolf
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed May 23, 2012 7:26 am

OP: Probably best to retake the LSAT & reapply early in the next cycle. Otherwise you'll be taking on too much debt. Before the deadline passes, ask Illinois for more scholarship money. You need to determine a scholarship amount that would make Illinois a wise choice financially & communicate your thoughts to Illinois.

Because you applied late & since law school applications are expected to fall further next cycle, you should have much better options if you wait & reapply whether or not you retake the LSAT.

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1776
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1776 » Wed May 23, 2012 6:20 pm

1TLStudent wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:timbs4339 wrote:
I'm almost confident I can find my way into it from any non-TTT.


Why?

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top30man
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby top30man » Wed May 23, 2012 6:49 pm

1776 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:timbs4339 wrote:
I'm almost confident I can find my way into it from any non-TTT.


Why?

You, like everyone else at UIUC next year, will think you will be top 10 percent and ride the big law dragon. 90 percent of you will be wrong. Definitely retake.

timbs4339
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 23, 2012 7:57 pm

top30man wrote:
1776 wrote:
Why?

You, like everyone else at UIUC next year, will think you will be top 10 percent and ride the big law dragon. 90 percent of you will be wrong. Definitely retake.


But but...I really didn't try that hard in college and it's all about reading and writing which I am really good at and my parents and friends have told me I am really good at arguing so I'll make a good lawyer and I was always going through breakups during finals in UG and I've been to the ASWs so my classmates don't seem that smart and I'll really buckle down this time honest.

mehereuthere101787
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby mehereuthere101787 » Wed May 23, 2012 9:11 pm

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Last edited by mehereuthere101787 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 pm

1776 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
1TLStudent wrote:timbs4339 wrote:
I'm almost confident I can find my way into it from any non-TTT.


Why?


Call it a hunch

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Wed May 23, 2012 9:18 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Probably best to retake the LSAT & reapply early in the next cycle. Otherwise you'll be taking on too much debt. Before the deadline passes, ask Illinois for more scholarship money. You need to determine a scholarship amount that would make Illinois a wise choice financially & communicate your thoughts to Illinois.

Because you applied late & since law school applications are expected to fall further next cycle, you should have much better options if you wait & reapply whether or not you retake the LSAT.


Yupp almost positive that's what I'm doing thanks for the input

timbs4339
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 23, 2012 9:53 pm

mehereuthere101787 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
top30man wrote:
1776 wrote:
Why?

You, like everyone else at UIUC next year, will think you will be top 10 percent and ride the big law dragon. 90 percent of you will be wrong. Definitely retake.


But but...I really didn't try that hard in college and it's all about reading and writing which I am really good at and my parents and friends have told me I am really good at arguing so I'll make a good lawyer and I was always going through breakups during finals in UG and I've been to the ASWs so my classmates don't seem that smart and I'll really buckle down this time honest.


spare me your cracker jack psychological analysis..youll probably suck at being a lawyer as much as you suck at being a fake shrink


Analysis? Kid, everything in that sentence is cliche at this point because I've heard it so many times IRL.

1TLStudent
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby 1TLStudent » Wed May 23, 2012 10:45 pm

LOL you've heard you're gonna suck at being a lawyer so many times ? Haha good luck

timbs4339
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Re: Fellow TLSers- I need your counsel!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 23, 2012 10:46 pm

1TLStudent wrote:LOL you've heard you're gonna suck at being a lawyer so many times ? Haha good luck


Well, that too. But hey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias




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