Warning

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Paul Campos
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Warning

Postby Paul Campos » Sat May 19, 2012 12:37 pm

Here's an example of what law schools are trying to pull off in an environment of declining enrollments and increasing criticism of their reporting practices.

Prof. Campos:

Today my girlfriend received the email below from Rutgers. By way of background, she has never even thought seriously about going to law school, let alone registered or taken the LSAT, or even registered or taken an LSAT prep course. She has taken the GMAT, and scored moderately well. Apparently that is enough to get you into Rutgers Law School. Notice that the requirement is that you've scored in the 70th percentile on any single section of the GMAT, and a UGPA of 3.3. You can almost smell the desperation for new applicants… waiving the application fee and the deposit fee makes this even more clear. Their completely nonsense employment data regarding their class of 2011 is a far cry from their Law School Transparency profile, based on 2010's data, which boasted a $56k mean salary with fully 19% unemployed. Somehow their average law firm salary jumped $28k in one year, in the middle of the worst time for young lawyers in a generation. Anyway, just thought you'd like to see one additional facet of law school admissions offices' despicable conduct. You've got to keep getting the word out on this insanity; the ABA has completely abdicated its responsibility for keeping our profession credible.

Email:

From: admissions@camlaw.rutgers.edu
Date: May 17, 2012 5:40:21 PM CDT
To:
Subject: Rutgers School of Law - Camden
Rutgers School of Law
Dear __________,
In the ever-volatile job market, you may be considering graduate school. Consider this - Rutgers School of Law - Camden is giving high-achieving students, such as you, the opportunity to enroll in the Fall 2012 class. The traditional law school program is a three-year program, which is extremely attractive to most graduate students given the difficult economy. The program is open to all students who have completed their undergraduate education with a 3.3 GPA or higher and scored in the 70th percentile or higher on any one core section of the GMAT. If accepted at Rutgers law School at Camden, you will join other bright, talented students who are pursuing their legal education at our law school. To encourage you to participate in the program, the Law School is waiving the application fee, and if accepted, the $300 deposit fee. Joint JD/MBA degrees with the Graduate School of Business are also possible. Scholarship awards and in-state tuition are available.
The School is proud to carry on the tradition of excellence at Rutgers University, which is one of the oldest and largest public institutions of higher learning in the nation. As a direct result of the quality of legal education at Rutgers, of those employed nine months after graduation, 90% were employed in the legal field and 90% were in full time positions. Our average starting salary for a 2011 graduate who enters private practice is in excess of $74,000, with many top students accepting positions with firms paying in excess of $130,000. In a recent Forbes publication, Rutgers School of Law-Camden was ranked 18th nationally as one of the "Best Law Schools for Getting Rich". Rutgers is also ranked high in the nation at placing its students in prestigious federal and state clerkships.
I hope that you will consider this opportunity and join this class. Please apply on-line at our web site at http://camlaw.rutgers.edu. We are a direct student loan institution so financial aid is easily processed. We also have newly constructed on-campus law school apartments available, adjacent to the Law School and the Federal Courthouse, and guaranteed for our law students.
Sincerely,
Camille Andrews
Associate Dean of Enrollment


A few notes:

(1) This school is trying to get someone who knows absolutely nothing about law school, let alone the legal profession, to start law school three months from now, essentially on what would have to be a whim. How responsible is this when there's one legal job available (at best) for every two law grads?

(2) The quoted employment statistics are deeply misleading to the point of fraud. The line about "our average starting salary for a 2011 graduate who enters private practice is in excess of $74,000" omits to mention that only 24.7% of the class went into private practice, and less than half of that group had their salaries reported. An accurate statement would be "about 4% of the class (approximately ten of 237 graduates) reported a median salary in private practice of $74,000 or higher." The "many top students" making a salary of more than $130,000 consists of a total of at most six students in the 2011 class. (Statistics here: --LinkRemoved--)

(3) I guess the new trend is to publish horrible employment statistics and then characterize them as reasons to go to law school -- which is a strategy that might work when you're hitting up people who have literally never looked at a law school employment chart in their lives, because they never even thought about going to law school until they were asked to apply by one.
Last edited by Paul Campos on Sat May 19, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

071816
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Re: Warning

Postby 071816 » Sat May 19, 2012 12:38 pm

Pretty pathetic.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Warning

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat May 19, 2012 12:45 pm

My first thought is one of sympathy for any applicant rejected by Rutgers-Camden next cycle--although I'm not sure whether they should be sad or relieved.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Warning

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat May 19, 2012 12:47 pm

Question: Is there a trend among law schools to waive application fees next cycle for all applicants in light of the overall downturn in law school applications ?

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Warning

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Sat May 19, 2012 1:33 pm

I received an email from Savannah Law School (non-accredited) two weeks ago basically saying the same thing.

"Dear _________, So school is finally winding down. You are about to graduate and your whole life is ahead of you. The question is, what to do with your life? Why not Savannah Law School? ...."

Then the letter went on to describe the environment as charming and laid back, etc. Pretty much said nothing about the law school itself, only the city of Savannah.

It's a sad, sad world we live in... I'm torn between feeling sad for the suckers this tripe induces and hating them for being so stupid. Obviously, schools like Savannah make me incredibly upset. I never heard of them, so I looked them up. They are a brand new law school, like we need more, and they are not accredited and, according to a blurb on their website, they won't be accredited by the time their first classes graduate either. Sickening.

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Nova
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Re: Warning

Postby Nova » Sat May 19, 2012 1:55 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:I received an email from Savannah Law School (non-accredited) two weeks ago basically saying the same thing.

"Dear _________, So school is finally winding down. You are about to graduate and your whole life is ahead of you. The question is, what to do with your life? Why not Savannah Law School? ...."

Then the letter went on to describe the environment as charming and laid back, etc. Pretty much said nothing about the law school itself, only the city of Savannah.

It's a sad, sad world we live in... I'm torn between feeling sad for the suckers this tripe induces and hating them for being so stupid. Obviously, schools like Savannah make me incredibly upset. I never heard of them, so I looked them up. They are a brand new law school, like we need more, and they are not accredited and, according to a blurb on their website, they won't be accredited by the time their first classes graduate either. Sickening.



But you get to say you go to SLS, and you get a full tuition scholarship because of your AMAZING LSAT and GPA (3.0/153) LOLOLOL


LSAT GPA Award

153+ 3.0+ 100 percent

153+ 2.5+ 75 percent

150+ 3.0+ 75 percent

150+ 2.5+ 50 percent

148+ 3.0+ 50 percent

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Tom Joad
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Re: Warning

Postby Tom Joad » Sat May 19, 2012 1:57 pm

Nova wrote:
BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:I received an email from Savannah Law School (non-accredited) two weeks ago basically saying the same thing.

"Dear _________, So school is finally winding down. You are about to graduate and your whole life is ahead of you. The question is, what to do with your life? Why not Savannah Law School? ...."

Then the letter went on to describe the environment as charming and laid back, etc. Pretty much said nothing about the law school itself, only the city of Savannah.

It's a sad, sad world we live in... I'm torn between feeling sad for the suckers this tripe induces and hating them for being so stupid. Obviously, schools like Savannah make me incredibly upset. I never heard of them, so I looked them up. They are a brand new law school, like we need more, and they are not accredited and, according to a blurb on their website, they won't be accredited by the time their first classes graduate either. Sickening.



But you get to say you go to SLS, and you get a full tuition scholarship because of your AMAZING LSAT and GPA (3.0/153) LOLOLOL


LSAT GPA Award

153+ 3.0+ 100 percent

153+ 2.5+ 75 percent

150+ 3.0+ 75 percent

150+ 2.5+ 50 percent

148+ 3.0+ 50 percent

....Only cost? 3 years of one's life. Where do I sign up!?

Schools like that could increase some people's earning potential with very little risk. If the scholarships don't have stips.

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Nova
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Re: Warning

Postby Nova » Sat May 19, 2012 1:59 pm

****You would retain your scholarship as long as you remain in the top one-third of your class at the end of your first and second academic years (for Full Time students) or completion of 30 and 60 credits (for Part Time students). This is a tremendous opportunity.

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beachbum
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Re: Warning

Postby beachbum » Sat May 19, 2012 2:15 pm

chimp wrote:Pretty pathetic.

Excellent117
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Re: Warning

Postby Excellent117 » Sat May 19, 2012 2:44 pm

That Rutgers email reads like a flawed LSAT prompt. It's really sad how many times I had the same conversation with people I barely knew at my graduation two weeks ago:

Me: So what are you doing after school?

Them: I dunno. I was thinking about taking the LSAT and going to Law School. I was searching schools a few days ago and *insert $40,000/year TTT school* looks like it would be easy to get into. Plus in three years I would come out making six figures.

This was always followed by my futile attempts to dissuade them from making such a terrible decision.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Warning

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat May 19, 2012 2:50 pm

There had been reports that Rutgers Camden had been having serious enrollment problems due to the proposed (now dead?) merger with Rowan, or something. This would comport well with those reports.

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dingbat
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Re: Warning

Postby dingbat » Sat May 19, 2012 3:25 pm

If I had known it was this easy to get into law school, I wouldn't have taken the LSAT (how old a GMAT score will they accept)seriously though, I wouldn't go to either Rutgers with full scholly and living stipend

I wonder though, if someone manages to score 70% on the math part of the GMAT, but bombs the other two sections, they could get in, despite having no ability re reading and writing?
I know the school is desperate due to the merger, but, sheesh

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sat May 19, 2012 3:32 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Here's an example of what law schools are trying to pull off in an environment of declining enrollments and increasing criticism of their reporting practices.

Prof. Campos:

Today my girlfriend received the email below from Rutgers. By way of background, she has never even thought seriously about going to law school, let alone registered or taken the LSAT, or even registered or taken an LSAT prep course. She has taken the GMAT, and scored moderately well. Apparently that is enough to get you into Rutgers Law School. Notice that the requirement is that you've scored in the 70th percentile on any single section of the GMAT, and a UGPA of 3.3. You can almost smell the desperation for new applicants… waiving the application fee and the deposit fee makes this even more clear. Their completely nonsense employment data regarding their class of 2011 is a far cry from their Law School Transparency profile, based on 2010's data, which boasted a $56k mean salary with fully 19% unemployed. Somehow their average law firm salary jumped $28k in one year, in the middle of the worst time for young lawyers in a generation. Anyway, just thought you'd like to see one additional facet of law school admissions offices' despicable conduct. You've got to keep getting the word out on this insanity; the ABA has completely abdicated its responsibility for keeping our profession credible.

Email:

From: admissions@camlaw.rutgers.edu
Date: May 17, 2012 5:40:21 PM CDT
To:
Subject: Rutgers School of Law - Camden
Rutgers School of Law
Dear __________,
In the ever-volatile job market, you may be considering graduate school. Consider this - Rutgers School of Law - Camden is giving high-achieving students, such as you, the opportunity to enroll in the Fall 2012 class. The traditional law school program is a three-year program, which is extremely attractive to most graduate students given the difficult economy. The program is open to all students who have completed their undergraduate education with a 3.3 GPA or higher and scored in the 70th percentile or higher on any one core section of the GMAT. If accepted at Rutgers law School at Camden, you will join other bright, talented students who are pursuing their legal education at our law school. To encourage you to participate in the program, the Law School is waiving the application fee, and if accepted, the $300 deposit fee. Joint JD/MBA degrees with the Graduate School of Business are also possible. Scholarship awards and in-state tuition are available.
The School is proud to carry on the tradition of excellence at Rutgers University, which is one of the oldest and largest public institutions of higher learning in the nation. As a direct result of the quality of legal education at Rutgers, of those employed nine months after graduation, 90% were employed in the legal field and 90% were in full time positions. Our average starting salary for a 2011 graduate who enters private practice is in excess of $74,000, with many top students accepting positions with firms paying in excess of $130,000. In a recent Forbes publication, Rutgers School of Law-Camden was ranked 18th nationally as one of the "Best Law Schools for Getting Rich". Rutgers is also ranked high in the nation at placing its students in prestigious federal and state clerkships.
I hope that you will consider this opportunity and join this class. Please apply on-line at our web site at http://camlaw.rutgers.edu. We are a direct student loan institution so financial aid is easily processed. We also have newly constructed on-campus law school apartments available, adjacent to the Law School and the Federal Courthouse, and guaranteed for our law students.
Sincerely,
Camille Andrews
Associate Dean of Enrollment


A few notes:

(1) This school is trying to get someone who knows absolutely nothing about law school, let alone the legal profession, to start law school three months from now, essentially on what would have to be a whim. How responsible is this when there's one legal job available (at best) for every two law grads?

(2) The quoted employment statistics are deeply misleading to the point of fraud. The line about "our average starting salary for a 2011 graduate who enters private practice is in excess of $74,000" omits to mention that only 29% of the class went into private practice, and less than half of that group had their salaries reported. An accurate statement would be "7% of the class (14 of 199 graduates) reported a median salary in private practice of $60,000 or higher." The "many top students" making a salary of more than $130,000 consists of a total of at most six students in the 2011 class. (Statistics here: --LinkRemoved--)

(3) I guess the new trend is to publish horrible employment statistics and then characterize them as reasons to go to law school -- which is a strategy that might work when you're hitting up people who have literally never looked at a law school employment chart in their lives, because they never even thought about going to law school until they were asked to apply by one.


Usually schools seem to just kind of beat around the bush about employment and I was hopeful after the new ABA placement data that recently came out we were on our way to better transparency. However, what Rutgers is doing here is STRAIGHT UP FRAUD (this is NOT beating around the bush regarding employment but straight up lying). I think they should be prosecuted on criminal charges.

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zozin
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Re: Warning

Postby zozin » Sat May 19, 2012 3:50 pm

I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 pm

zozin wrote:I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.


It is one thing to advertise in your favor and I have no problem with that. But to out right lie is quite another thing. I believe they call that fraud in other industries.

timbs4339
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Re: Warning

Postby timbs4339 » Sat May 19, 2012 5:11 pm

zozin wrote:I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.


Yep, letting large numbers of people make stupid financial decisions for the enrichment of a few will never blowback on everyone else.

(2007 guy)

Seriously though, you are entering a profession. Part of what keeps law free from outside competition is the perceived ability of lawyers to self-regulate the profession. I really don't want to be around in 20 years when the new common wisdom is that law school is the province of people with literally no other options who want three years of living expenses from the government or who can't do their own research and that law schools behave like culinary or beauty schools.

JamesChapman23
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Re: Warning

Postby JamesChapman23 » Sat May 19, 2012 5:34 pm

zozin wrote:I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.


This is fine if people are financing their private transaction with through own funds. The problem in this situation is the government controls the whole credit market for student loans and the vast majority of law students go on credit. Lowlife deans and administrators have the upside risks, while the taxpayers bear the burden for default and loan forgiveness.

In other words, this is just more moral hazard in our society. Nobody is careful with other people's money as they are with their own.

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Corsair
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Re: Warning

Postby Corsair » Sat May 19, 2012 5:46 pm

..

Excellent117
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Re: Warning

Postby Excellent117 » Sat May 19, 2012 5:55 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
zozin wrote:I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.


It is one thing to advertise in your favor and I have no problem with that. But to out right lie is quite another thing. I believe they call that fraud in other industries.


The thing is that Rutgers isn't actually lying, which makes it so difficult to change their behavior. They are just selectively sharing their statistics and being very careful with their words.

For example the part about "many top students accepting positions with firms paying in excess of $130,000". Anyone who is familiar with the kind of careful reading required for the LSAT knows that "many" simply refers to more than 1.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: Warning

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sat May 19, 2012 6:05 pm

Excellent117 wrote:
RedBirds2011 wrote:
zozin wrote:I don't understand why people on TLS are surprised about this, they're running the law school like a business. In order to sell the product, you advertise. If people are stupid enough to fork over $200K and 3 years of their life because they were convinced to go to law school due to superficial research, then I say good luck to them and god bless America.

As far as the numbers are concerned, I'm an 0L, so I don't know whether it's illegal or not, but it looks like they're massaging the numbers in their favor. I'm sure law schools aren't the only institution doing this.


It is one thing to advertise in your favor and I have no problem with that. But to out right lie is quite another thing. I believe they call that fraud in other industries.


The thing is that Rutgers isn't actually lying, which makes it so difficult to change their behavior. They are just selectively sharing their statistics and being very careful with their words.

For example the part about "many top students accepting positions with firms paying in excess of $130,000". Anyone who is familiar with the kind of careful reading required for the LSAT knows that "many" simply refers to more than 1.


Saying in a letter that their grads enjoy 90 percent LONG TERM employment in full time LEGAL positions is an outright lie. Thats not selective, just completely untrue.

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Corsair
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Re: Warning

Postby Corsair » Sat May 19, 2012 6:09 pm

..

Excellent117
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Re: Warning

Postby Excellent117 » Sat May 19, 2012 6:10 pm

.
Last edited by Excellent117 on Sat May 19, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Excellent117
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Re: Warning

Postby Excellent117 » Sat May 19, 2012 6:10 pm

Corsair wrote:
Excellent117 wrote:The thing is that Rutgers isn't actually lying, which makes it so difficult to change their behavior. They are just selectively sharing their statistics and being very careful with their words.

For example the part about "many top students accepting positions with firms paying in excess of $130,000". Anyone who is familiar with the kind of careful reading required for the LSAT knows that "many" simply refers to more than 1.


Doesn't need to be false.

Quoting from some case law (since Rutgers is in NJ, I'll rely only on the 3rd Circuit)

"To establish a false advertising claim under the Lanham Act, a plaintiff must prove: 1) that the defendant has made false or misleading statements as to his own product" (emphasis added)


In contrast to claims of literal falsity, "where the advertisements are not literally false, plaintiff bears the burden of proving actual deception by a preponderance of the evidence. Hence, it cannot obtain relief by arguing how consumers could react; it must show how consumers actually do react." Sandoz Pharm. Corp. v. Richardson-Vicks, Inc., 902 F.2d 222, 228-29 (3d Cir. 1990).


There are plenty of people on the internet whose blogs and forum posts could be used as evidence of consumers actually being misled.


Thanks for the info...my 0L is showing

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Corsair
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Re: Warning

Postby Corsair » Sat May 19, 2012 6:13 pm

..

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Nova
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Re: Warning

Postby Nova » Sat May 19, 2012 6:13 pm

LST wrote: •55.6% of graduates were known employed in full-time legal jobs. This figure includes an unknown number of temporary jobs and school-funded jobs.
•74.3% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•72.2% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.



--LinkRemoved--

Sounds like they are lying, to me.




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