Dozo (28k) vs. Brooklyn (40k) vs. Seton Hall (35k) Forum

[iceicebaby]

Ugh, gotta love the TLS elitist rhetoric.

OP has three options, so discuss those three only. Otherwise, you miss the whole point of this thread.

1. Dozo - most debt, best NY prospects of the three. In the end, however, I contend that the additional money spent (including interest) will outweigh any "advantage" gained going here.
2. Brooklyn - better for NYC compared to SH, but not outside of Manhattan. IMHO, their facilities and administration are very meh and I don't think they really enjoy a better overall rep than Seton Hall does.
3. Seton Hall - not perceived as well as the other schools in NYC, but they have a very good Health Law program and the nicest facilities of the three despite being 15 minutes on a PATH train from WTC. My Dad is an executive counsel at Anthem BCBS, and the lawyers there extol the health law program at Seton Hall. Also, after visiting the three, I got the sense that the students were the happiest and most cohesive of the three listed here.

You can take it for what it's worth. I voted for Brooklyn because of your absolute preference for NY, but I don't think you should write off any of them. Did you visit them all? If so, go with the one that feels like the best fit for you. For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

He should write off SH for the horrible stip

Top 50% isn't horrible for a stip. But yeah, the other stips are much better, which is why I edited my response to include that fact. If OP isn't top 50% of any of these schools, then they should be prepared to drop out or face a tough road ahead.

[iceicebaby]

Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.

With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...

[Nelson]

For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

You couldn't possibly pick worse criteria for selecting a professional school.

[rad lulz]

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[iceicebaby]

For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

You couldn't possibly pick worse criteria for selecting a professional school.

I didn't say that's ALL I need... I'm saying all things being equal with these schools (which they largely are), I would look at these secondary qualities. People seem to forget that you have to live, breath and sweat law school the next three years of your life... so yeah, they are important factors to consider for quality of life outside of the classroom. If you're going to school simply for the pure academic exercise or just to get a doctorate, then I think you're missing the point. You're not going to be living in a vacuum where only your class ranking matters and one should not undervalue the social aspects of being a lawyer.

But again, to each their own.

[iceicebaby]

Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.

With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.

Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

[Tiago Splitter]

Ah yes, trying to give yourself a good shot at ANY employment that will enable you to repay your loans is a profound display of elitism.

With all due respect, can you please show me where their employment figures indicate a large percentage of unemployed students that will be unable to repay at least some of their loans? Take your time...

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.

Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

Seton Hall reports a median salary of $44,551 for employed graduates of the class of 2010. Even if we assume this is representative, I don't know how someone pays down the principal on 100K worth of loans on that salary.

http://law.shu.edu/ProspectiveStudents/ ... /index.cfm

[Mr. Somebody]

Ugh, gotta love the TLS elitist rhetoric.

OP has three options, so discuss those three only. Otherwise, you miss the whole point of this thread.

1. Dozo - most debt, best NY prospects of the three. In the end, however, I contend that the additional money spent (including interest) will outweigh any "advantage" gained going here.
2. Brooklyn - better for NYC compared to SH, but not outside of Manhattan. IMHO, their facilities and administration are very meh and I don't think they really enjoy a better overall rep than Seton Hall does.
3. Seton Hall - not perceived as well as the other schools in NYC, but they have a very good Health Law program and the nicest facilities of the three despite being 15 minutes on a PATH train from WTC. My Dad is an executive counsel at Anthem BCBS, and the lawyers there extol the health law program at Seton Hall. Also, after visiting the three, I got the sense that the students were the happiest and most cohesive of the three listed here.

You can take it for what it's worth. I voted for Brooklyn because of your absolute preference for NY, but I don't think you should write off any of them. Did you visit them all? If so, go with the one that feels like the best fit for you. For me, I need good facilities, a strong alumni network and strong student body cohesion... to each their own.

He should write off SH for the horrible stip

Top 50% isn't horrible for a stip. But yeah, the other stips are much better, which is why I edited my response to include that fact. If OP isn't top 50% of any of these schools, then they should be prepared to drop out or face a tough road ahead.

Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker

[flem]

Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker

I don't think it's bad at all when you realize you should drop out if you're below median at a school in this range.

That is, of course, if you're realistic.

[Mr. Somebody]

Top 50% is horrible. You have a coin-flip chance of paying sticker

I don't think it's bad at all when you realize you should drop out if you're below median at a school in this range.

That is, of course, if you're realistic.

That's tru but OP has other options with better stips

Yikes, Dozo's employment page is a mess to decipher.

http://cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContentDisp ... ntid=20254

I did some back of the hand calculations and about 20% of the class is working in firms with 100+ lawyers. Thats for class of 2010....

[rad lulz]

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[stillwater]

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

Or you could just not put yourself in a bad situation to begin with and obviate the need for your cute maxim in this situation.

[iceicebaby]

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

Or you could just not put yourself in a bad situation to begin with and obviate the need for your cute maxim.

True, but OP is dead-set on going. It's not like you can just wake up one day and say "well, I guess being a lawyer is not ideal enough for me, why don't I go be a doctor!"

Listen, these are not bad situations. They aren't the most ideal, true, but the OP (like myself) has probably determined that the alternatives are either not viable or are just as bad. Everyone's hurting now, you'd be blind to not see that. It's also about building a career, not just the next 5 years of your life. If this is all just about money, then honestly someone needs to re-evaluate why they want to go to law school.

[Tiago Splitter]

C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.

Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.

[Robespierre]

Voted for Brooklyn. SH's stip is outrageous and if you definitely want NYC it's not a good choice. Comes down to Dozo or BLS. I don't think Dozo's placement is better by enough of a margin to justify borrowing an extra $30K+.

I do agree with the others that 100K is an awful lot of money to be borrowing to attend the fourth or fifth best school in an overcrowded market.

[rad lulz]

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[TLSwag]

C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.

Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.

This. You beat me to it

[TLSwag]

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.

Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

False and misleading employment stats should be a red flag breh.

I was gonna make a poast about the low chance at biglaw (as shown by the NLJ250 list), the likely outcome if you miss biglaw thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, and how only 58% of law grads get full time bar passage required jobs after graduation (and those that don't come disproportionately from less prestigious schools). However, you've literally heard all of this before, so I decided against it.

Plus I'm just a bitter elitist or whatever.

Finally, we can agree on something

[rad lulz]

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[iceicebaby]

In class, get back to you in an hour. Also keep in mind that the schools intentionally provide shitty and misdleading stats.

Then what do you really have to go by? Verbal reports and anecdotal evidence? At some point you have to stop acting like you can truly measure your likely outcome from these schools based upon faulty numbers on a stat sheet...

Expect the worst, prepare for the best.

False and misleading employment stats should be a red flag breh.

I was gonna make a poast about the low chance at biglaw (as shown by the NLJ250 list), the likely outcome if you miss biglaw thanks to the bimodal salary distribution curve, and how only 58% of law grads get full time bar passage required jobs after graduation (and those that don't come disproportionately from less prestigious schools). However, you've literally heard all of this before, so I decided against it. Plus I'm just a bitter elitist or whatever.

The employment stats aren't the best, granted, but I just hate the whole "biglaw or bread line" argument because it simply isn't true. It's constantly the line of thinking used to scare K-JDs into thinking twice about law school, as they should.

[rad lulz]

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[JusticeHarlan]

I know what there is to know - every stat and probability concerning each of these schools has already been thrown at me.

If you're fully informed, why create the thread? It seems harsh to ask for advice, then complain when you don't like the advice, and respond by saying you don't need advice.

Look, to move this out of the name-calling realm, why don't you do the stats and probabilities on here? Figure out what percentage chance you have at each of these schools to get the work you're looking for. You have the information, why not post it and show rad he's wrong?

[TLSwag]

C/o 2010 (OCI 2008) was awesome. That's a high water point.

Can't agree with this. Most schools that reported data for 2008-2010 showed a decline in firm employment and salary during that period. And it's not like Dozo people are all getting jobs through OCI.

This. You beat me to it

Still nothing like 2011, though I suppose a decent argument could be made from the preliminary reports I've seen that we're back at c/o 2010 style employment at "top" schools. I'd be a lot more hesitant having read some of the OCI stuff from this fall about lower-ranked schools.

Why don't u do some more research on that NLJ250 report you love to cite? c/o 2010 - Cardozo placed 12.6% (ranked 34th) and c/o 2011 placed 11.84% (ranked 27th).... 2009 was at 20.1% (30th).

GOD DAMN 2010 WHAT A FUCKING YEAR

[TLSwag]

What I would like to inquire into is why Brooklyn fails to appear in the top 50 for 2009. 2010, and 2011 NLJ 250 placement, if it is considered a peer school to Cardozo...

[iceicebaby]

I know what there is to know - every stat and probability concerning each of these schools has already been thrown at me.

If you're fully informed, why create the thread? It seems harsh to ask for advice, then complain when you don't like the advice, and respond by saying you don't need advice.

Look, to move this out of the name-calling realm, why don't you do the stats and probabilities on here? Figure out what percentage chance you have at each of these schools to get the work you're looking for. You have the information, why not post it and show rad he's wrong?

I don't think you could realistically do this for any school, let alone these schools.

If you're making life-altering decisions based solely upon your perceptions of faulty (at best) statistics, you probably shouldn't go to law school.