Georgetown + UCLA + Irvine = SERIOUSLY CONFLICTED! Forum

[lionLawyer]

Looking for any input at all!

I'm graduating from undergrad this semester, and attending law school in the fall. My "big 3" right now that I'm considering are Georgetown ($60,000 scholarship over 3 years), UCLA ($90,000 over 3 years) and UC Irvine ($165,000 over 3 years). I was extremely involved in mock trial in undergrad, and that's what appeals to me. Whatever sort of law I end up focusing on (criminal and international are appealing to me right now) I want to be in a court room as much as possible. Big factors for me in law school are solid trial advocacy programs, and clinics to get real-world experience.

I know people are going to say "location, location, location", but I don't know. I've been all the east coast my whole life, so I figure I should check out Cali? Or maybe stay close to home? I've visited all 3 schools, and was impressed by all of them; I really don't think I'd be disappointed with any of them. I must say I was very impressed when I attended the ASW at Irvine, but I don't know how much credit to give that; ASWs are after all a sell. I talked to Dean Moran at UCLA, who very adamantly protested that Irvine isn't even in the same league as UCLA (also a biased opinion although Moran was a founding faculty member at Irvine). The small class size at Irvine is a draw, compared to Georgetown's ~ 600 person entering class. Irvine is definitely a risk though, especially if I decide I want to end up back on the East Coast. Coming from UCLA, I'm sure I could get a job in NYC or DC out of graduation; Irvine, not so sure. The money is a big issue also. I'd like to come out of law school with little enough debt to do whatever I want and not be tied down to BigLaw. Irvine gets me there; Georgetown, not so much.

Bottom line is, I have no idea. Any brilliant insights?

[Richie Tenenbaum]

1) Location really does matter. Where do you want to work?
2) Realize that biglaw will mean that you MIGHT be in a courtroom in a few years, but you will not get significant court time with that path. (And if biglaw isn't a goal, then limiting debt becomes an even bigger priority.)
3) What you do mean by international law? Most likely, what you want it to mean doesn't really exist (or if it does exist, it is a very tiny field that is insanely difficult to crack).
4) If your goal is criminal law, then you will probably have more courtroom opportunities than other legal fields (even though the vast majority of cases resolve in plea bargains). But you will need to try and limit debt with this path. It will also be very, very helpful to go to a school in an area that you want to work, so you can do internships at local DA/PD offices during the school year (it's by no means necessary, but it can be helpful in 1) showing your devoting to criminal law and 2) establishing ties).
5) Do you know anything about the three schools LRAPs?

[lionLawyer]

1) Location really does matter. Where do you want to work?
2) Realize that biglaw will mean that you MIGHT be in a courtroom in a few years, but you will not get significant court time with that path. (And if biglaw isn't a goal, then limiting debt becomes an even bigger priority.)
3) What you do mean by international law? Most likely, what you want it to mean doesn't really exist (or if it does exist, it is a very tiny field that is insanely difficult to crack).
4) If your goal is criminal law, then you will probably have more courtroom opportunities than other legal fields (even though the vast majority of cases resolve in plea bargains). But you will need to try and limit debt with this path. It will also be very, very helpful to go to a school in an area that you want to work, so you can do internships at local DA/PD offices during the school year (it's by no means necessary, but it can be helpful in 1) showing your devoting to criminal law and 2) establishing ties).
5) Do you know anything about the three schools LRAPs?

I probably want to work East Coast, BUT I could see myself getting to California and never coming back. I'm pretty interested in criminal law right now, and I've heard from a lot of successful criminal attorneys that the best way to go is to get a job with the PD or DA right out of law school; lots of courtroom time. All three schools have pretty similar and solid LRAP programs, but I don't know if I'd want to be committed to doing Public Interest for 10 years. One big question I have for anyone out there more knowledgeable than me is how much debt can I manage on a PD or DA salary coming out of law school? My dad's offered me $15,000 a year to help with cost of living, so Irvine would leave me with only about $15,000 debt, Georgetown would leave me about $90,000 and UCLA would leave me with about $65,000. In terms of debt interest and payments, could I get by on a PD or DA salary with $90k in debt? With $65k?

[uci2013]

Looking for any input at all!

I'm graduating from undergrad this semester, and attending law school in the fall. My "big 3" right now that I'm considering are Georgetown ($60,000 scholarship over 3 years), UCLA ($90,000 over 3 years) and UC Irvine ($165,000 over 3 years). I was extremely involved in mock trial in undergrad, and that's what appeals to me. Whatever sort of law I end up focusing on (criminal and international are appealing to me right now) I want to be in a court room as much as possible. Big factors for me in law school are solid trial advocacy programs, and clinics to get real-world experience.

I know people are going to say "location, location, location", but I don't know. I've been all the east coast my whole life, so I figure I should check out Cali? Or maybe stay close to home? I've visited all 3 schools, and was impressed by all of them; I really don't think I'd be disappointed with any of them. I must say I was very impressed when I attended the ASW at Irvine, but I don't know how much credit to give that; ASWs are after all a sell. I talked to Dean Moran at UCLA, who very adamantly protested that Irvine isn't even in the same league as UCLA (also a biased opinion although Moran was a founding faculty member at Irvine). The small class size at Irvine is a draw, compared to Georgetown's ~ 600 person entering class. Irvine is definitely a risk though, especially if I decide I want to end up back on the East Coast. Coming from UCLA, I'm sure I could get a job in NYC or DC out of graduation; Irvine, not so sure. The money is a big issue also. I'd like to come out of law school with little enough debt to do whatever I want and not be tied down to BigLaw. Irvine gets me there; Georgetown, not so much.

Bottom line is, I have no idea. Any brilliant insights?

I am a UCI student so am biased. But I would go with UCI without hesitation with a fullride there. I interned on the east coast my 1L summer, and the Georgetown students I interned with were the least happy of the students I worked with (Fordham, BU, USC, Columbia, Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, GW, Vanderbilt were all represented in the mix).

UCLA is also a good school, but not for that much more money IMO. Regarding international law, UCI has great faculty in International Law in my opinion and Professor Whytock is definitely a rising star. We had a Jessup International Moot Court team compete regionally for the first time this year. We made the quarterfinals and won two speaker awards. The only schools with more than one speaker award were Hastings, UCI and Hawaii, making up 7 of the top 10 speakers combined. The school is also planning on starting a competitive mock trial team next year coached by the same person who has coached UCIs award winning undergrad mock trial team. And ALL of our trial advocacy professors are AMAZING. Regarding criminal law, there is no criminal law clinic established yet, but I and a number of students have externed at both the PD and DA offices and you can do a field placement with them in lieu of one of the school offered clinic. There are definitely opportunities to participate in both international law and criminal law activities at UCI. Were you at UCI's ASD?

Like I said, I admit I am biased. And UCI or UCLA are both good schools, so you are likely fine whichever of the two you choose, but I would go with the lower debt in the end, especially since your interests and goals can be met at UCI.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Looking for any input at all!

I'm graduating from undergrad this semester, and attending law school in the fall. My "big 3" right now that I'm considering are Georgetown ($60,000 scholarship over 3 years), UCLA ($90,000 over 3 years) and UC Irvine ($165,000 over 3 years). I was extremely involved in mock trial in undergrad, and that's what appeals to me. Whatever sort of law I end up focusing on (criminal and international are appealing to me right now) I want to be in a court room as much as possible. Big factors for me in law school are solid trial advocacy programs, and clinics to get real-world experience.

I know people are going to say "location, location, location", but I don't know. I've been all the east coast my whole life, so I figure I should check out Cali? Or maybe stay close to home? I've visited all 3 schools, and was impressed by all of them; I really don't think I'd be disappointed with any of them. I must say I was very impressed when I attended the ASW at Irvine, but I don't know how much credit to give that; ASWs are after all a sell. I talked to Dean Moran at UCLA, who very adamantly protested that Irvine isn't even in the same league as UCLA (also a biased opinion although Moran was a founding faculty member at Irvine). The small class size at Irvine is a draw, compared to Georgetown's ~ 600 person entering class. Irvine is definitely a risk though, especially if I decide I want to end up back on the East Coast. Coming from UCLA, I'm sure I could get a job in NYC or DC out of graduation; Irvine, not so sure. The money is a big issue also. I'd like to come out of law school with little enough debt to do whatever I want and not be tied down to BigLaw. Irvine gets me there; Georgetown, not so much.

Bottom line is, I have no idea. Any brilliant insights?

I am a UCI student so am biased. But I would go with UCI without hesitation with a fullride there. I interned on the east coast my 1L summer, and the Georgetown students I interned with were the least happy of the students I worked with (Fordham, BU, USC, Columbia, Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, GW, Vanderbilt were all represented in the mix).

UCLA is also a good school, but not for that much more money IMO. Regarding international law, UCI has great faculty in International Law in my opinion and Professor Whytock is definitely a rising star. We had a Jessup International Moot Court team compete regionally for the first time this year. We made the quarterfinals and won two speaker awards. The only schools with more than one speaker award were Hastings, UCI and Hawaii, making up 7 of the top 10 speakers combined. The school is also planning on starting a competitive mock trial team next year coached by the same person who has coached UCIs award winning undergrad mock trial team. And ALL of our trial advocacy professors are AMAZING. Regarding criminal law, there is no criminal law clinic established yet, but I and a number of students have externed at both the PD and DA offices and you can do a field placement with them in lieu of one of the school offered clinic. There are definitely opportunities to participate in both international law and criminal law activities at UCI. Were you at UCI's ASD?

Like I said, I admit I am biased. And UCI or UCLA are both good schools, so you are likely fine whichever of the two you choose, but I would go with the lower debt in the end, especially since your interests and goals can be met at UCI.

Can you list one UCI graduate practicing "international law"? UT has classes, professors, and school activities that involve international law, but I would never tell someone that if they want to practice international law, they should come to UT. (Unless, they meant something like immigration. Then UT would make a lot of sense.) Most people who say they want to practice international law don't really know what they mean by that.

[Revolver066]

How can you be so sure that you can get a job in NYC or DC out of UCLA, especially if biglaw is the goal?

You have 90k but isn't COA at ucla close to or over 70k. A year for out of state students? Ucla has enough trouble placing a third of it's class into the NLJ 250, and I'd bet most of that is on Cali, specifically SoCal.

Id say Georgetown if you want to work on the east coast (though thats still a lot of debt), or UCI for the West coast. Irvine is a huge risk to be sure, but they still have a really small class size, pretty decent clerkship+firm with over 100 lawyers placement, great faculty, and you would have way less debt.

[uci2013]

Can you list one UCI graduate practicing "international law"? UT has classes, professors, and school activities that involve international law, but I would never tell someone that if they want to practice international law, they should come to UT. (Unless, they meant something like immigration. Then UT would make a lot of sense.) Most people who say they want to practice international law don't really know what they mean by that.

The student said they were interested in international law. Part of what makes UCI good IMO is the faculty, and Professor Whytock actually has a very practical approach to international law and calls it transnational law to be more accurate. There is public and private international law. With globalization, private international law is growing as international contracts grow.
That being said we have a 3L who will be working in project finance for a firm in Singapore and we have a student has done externships with international courts, but I don't know her well and don't know her post grad plans.

OP also mentioned criminal law. The 2L class seems to have a greater interest in criminal law than the 3L graduating class so it is too soon to tell about placements, but in my internship the PD or DA office (being vague on purpose) has gushed over not just my work, but the work of my classmates.

Anyway, the classes you take in law school don't matter much, so if you have an interest, you might as well take classes where your interests lie. And the Jessup competition is well respected in the community, even among law firms and is a great resume boost even if entering biglaw. I never said anything about UCI as a place for a career in international law, as I was given nothing more specific to go off of. But if you have an interest in international law we have classes, great professors, activities, and we have an international human rights clinic this semester led by Paul Hoffman who has his own firm doing Plaintiff Work (to make bank) and Alien Tort Statute and other human rights work in LA. So if it is an interest, it is here for you. And if you are interested in private international law we have faculty to support that as well.

[moneybagsphd]

I talked to Dean Moran at UCLA, who very adamantly protested that Irvine isn't even in the same league as UCLA (also a biased opinion although Moran was a founding faculty member at Irvine).

Sure, UCLA is the objectively better school, but that doesn't make it the better choice after you factor in the difference in scholarships. This attitude strikes me as arrogant. Her letter to the students after the USNWR rankings were released also rubbed me the wrong way:

Dear Students,
I am very pleased to let you know that this year, UCLA School of Law was ranked fifteenth among American law schools by U.S. News & World Report. This is the first time since 2006-07 that we have been ranked at this level without being tied with any other law schools. We passed both Texas and Vanderbilt in the newly released rankings and widened the gap between UCLA and USC. I have reviewed our records going back to 2004-05, and I am proud to report that during that time period, this year’s overall score is the highest we have ever achieved.
We are on the move, and it is thanks to your outstanding achievements, deep loyalty, and unflagging support. I want to express my appreciation for all that you do to keep UCLA Law strong. Our future is bright as a result of your efforts, and we will continue to make tremendous progress because of the wonderful community that you have built and nurtured. I look forward to working with you to reach even greater heights.
It is truly a privilege to be your dean!

[Blindmelon]

Easy Georgetown if you want the East Coast.

[keg411]

Curious as to what your numbers are and where else you applied/were accepted.

[lionLawyer]

Curious as to what your numbers are and where else you applied/were accepted.

3.95/169. Applied to duke (60k), UVA (waitlist), NYU(accepted), USC (75k),UC Davis (60k), UCI (165k), UCLA (90k), Georgetown (60k), Columbia (waitlist), Berkeley (rejected), Penn, Michigan (waitlist), Vanderbilt (90k)

To answer some other questions, I'm not sold on international law, more interested in criminal. And big law isn't necessarily the goal right out of school. I'd like to do some PD work

[bdole2]

duke (60k), NYU(accepted) Vanderbilt (90k)

Not considering these at all?

[keg411]

duke (60k), NYU(accepted) Vanderbilt (90k)

Not considering these at all?

I like Duke w/$60k more than GULC w/$60k. I also like NYU sticker more than GULC w/$60k. For the east coast, I'd consider those to over the CA schools. Not sure about Vandy w/$90k unless the east coast = the south.

[lionLawyer]

restricting our universe of cases to UCI (165k) and UCLA (90k) what are people's thoughts looking at factors like criminal law, clinical opportunities, job placement.

[Blindmelon]

restricting our universe of cases to UCI (165k) and UCLA (90k) what are people's thoughts looking at factors like criminal law, clinical opportunities, job placement.

UCLA.

[Tadatsune]

duke (60k), NYU(accepted) Vanderbilt (90k)

Not considering these at all?

I like Duke w/$60k more than GULC w/$60k. I also like NYU sticker more than GULC w/$60k. For the east coast, I'd consider those to over the CA schools. Not sure about Vandy w/$90k unless the east coast = the south.

[skitlets]

restricting our universe of cases to UCI (165k) and UCLA (90k) what are people's thoughts looking at factors like criminal law, clinical opportunities, [ERROR: 404] placement.

I can't speak to job placement but UCI does require a clinic for graduation. You have to apply for a clinic at UCLA and while those who want them usually get them, about half are simulated.

[uci2013]

restricting our universe of cases to UCI (165k) and UCLA (90k) what are people's thoughts looking at factors like criminal law, clinical opportunities, [ERROR: 404] placement.

I can't speak to [ERROR: 404] placement but UCI does require a clinic for graduation. You have to apply for a clinic at UCLA and while those who want them usually get them, about half are simulated.

Yep clinics are required at UCI and none of them are simulated. The appellate advocacy clinic actually gets to argue before the 9th circuit, immigration gets real immigration cases. And you can do more than one clinic. There are some clinics where 2Ls can participate that count for credit but aren't an "official" clinic that counts toward graduation - such as the domestic violence clinic.

There isn't a criminal law clinic in place yet, but I am sure it is coming. In the meantime you are allowed to do a field placement at the PDs, the DA, the Fed Pub Def, etc in lieu of one of the offered clinics as long as you discuss it in advance and get it cleared. And you can do externships as well.

The OC PD and DAs office both have taken externs from our class and both have ways that you can make court appearances and the like. San Diego PD is supposed to be even better about letting you appear in court and you can do actual trials there from what I understand.

[Blindmelon]

Don't pick a law school because of clinics or whatever. Law school is about getting a job while not financially ruining yourself. You just need to balance job prospects with debt. Other considerations should not be huge factors in your decision.

[TrojanHopeful]

Drink it.