William and Mary and Washington and Lee ranking change-up Forum

[coocookuhchoo]

New US News rankings have WL at 24 and WM at 35. Last year, WM was at 27 and WL was at 30. Are the new rankings a one-off, or should WL be above WM? I heard that WM's drop was largely because of unemployment - does WL do a lot of temporary employment and number fudging in that area? There is another thread that specifically asks about choosing between them, but here I am more wondering about the rankings. How significant are the new rankings and do they accurately reflect true standing?

[cinephile]

Last year it was totally free to apply to W&L. They probably did so to attract people who otherwise wouldn't apply. They happened to capture some people with higher scores, then gave them scholarships to get them to stay. Then their ranking went up.

The change in ranking is so slight that it doesn't matter at all. And even if it did, job prospects haven't changed. W&L's job prospects aren't great, but the nice thing is they give you lots of transparent employment info with your acceptance.

[coocookuhchoo]

Thanks for the info. By saying that WL job prospects aren't great, do you mean that WM's are better? Do you have an idea of which is generally more prestigious, or are they basically peers?

[cinephile]

I guess I'd say they're peers, but I never really looked deeply into W&M's prospects. Check out law school transparency for both schools. See how many people aren't reporting salaries, or just not reporting.

[mrslaw2014]

W&M's stats dropped almost solely on employment data as the rest of their stats rose. The school does not hire students to pad employment statistics. They are one one of the schools that is very transparent about employment data so check their website out.

[mtmorce]

Before the recession hit, W&L sat pretty well above W&M. It is my understanding that when W&L's third year program was pioneered, many firms didn't know what to make of it, and so they were skeptical. W&L's complete break-away from tradition was a risk. However, as the public perception of that third year program shifts, employment has improved, and so has the rankings.

[mtmorce]

I think it's also important to note that when I was admitted, W&L sent me (and other admitted students) a 15 page packet with in-depth employment statistics, however I'm not sure of W&M's practices re: data released as I withdrew.

[tennisking88]

I think it's a combination of two things. Before the recession hit, W&L sat pretty well above W&M. As you are probably aware, what followed was a lot of numbers fudging at many schools to wait out the recession and play the rankings. Because of W&L's Honor Code, they did not participate in that game, and so the true impact of the recession was visible, while other schools inflated LSAT scores and employment numbers. Given the way many of these inflations have come into the public eye in the past year or so (Illinois, anyone?), US News is starting to crack down on how numbers are reported, sending W&L back upward in respect to other schools.

The other half of it is W&L's third year program. It is my understanding that when it was pioneered, many firms didn't know what to make of it, and so they were skeptical. W&L's complete break-away from tradition was a risk. However, as the public perception of that third year program shifts, employment has improved, and so has the rankings.

Wow. There is 0 proof either of these facts impacted the rankings even remotely. W&L admins will also be the first to tell you that while the initial feedback to the 3rd year program is positive, there's no data on it swaying employment.

[JamesChapman23]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

[coocookuhchoo]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

So you are telling me that going to Texas is the same as going to Barry? I'm not so sure of that...

[coocookuhchoo]

I think it's also important to note that when I was admitted, W&L sent me (and other admitted students) a 15 page packet with in-depth employment statistics. They truly are all about transparency.

I received that packet upon admission as well, but I wasn't very impressed with it. William and Mary sent something that seemed much more transparent, as it was far more detailed and put all the numbers right there on the page, whereas W&L seemed to like to do everything in graphs.

[Gail]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

They don't matter in that they don't determine anything. But they certainly reflect quality of schools in large bunches.

I.e. top 30 is better than the last two tiers.

[coocookuhchoo]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

They don't matter in that they don't determine anything. But they certainly reflect quality of schools in large bunches.

I.e. top 30 is better than the last two tiers.

So, would WM and WL still be considered the same overall group?

::edit:: I realize that each year's rankings don't redetermine grouping, but I am more asking if they are traditionally thought of as in the same group

[CwallXC322]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

They don't matter in that they don't determine anything. But they certainly reflect quality of schools in large bunches.

I.e. top 30 is better than the last two tiers.

So, would WM and WL still be considered the same overall group?

::edit:: I realize that each year's rankings don't redetermine grouping, but I am more asking if they are traditionally thought of as in the same group

You seem to already have made up your mind (if in fact you are choosing a law school). W&M and W&L are peer schools. They are in the same group. They are about equal in prestige. They will roughly give you similar job prospects. Go to the one you feel more comfortable/which is cheapest.

/thread

[mtmorce]

I think that they are absolutely in the same group, and that both will likely open up doors to the same opportunities. I was merely responding to the initial question re: the ranking change. Those were the answers provided at W&L's ASW. Just attempting to be helpful

[Jaeger]

I have read that amongst the older crowd in the VA, MD, DC area, W&L is considered more highly, much of that coming from remembering a time when W&L was pretty consistently in the top 20 or thereabouts. That being said, I'd still consider them peer schools.

[mrslaw2014]

These two schools are definitely in the same group and definitely have similar markets. The reputation of the schools really depends on the markets. W&M has a great reputation in the Richmond and eastern VA markets. I'd go with which area/campus you like better and whichever is cheaper, honestly.

Also, there is NO data to back up that W&M inflated any employment or LSAT stats. W&M is one of the most transparent schools out there. I know less about W&L but I imagine they are on the same level with transparency.

[mtmorce]

Agree.

[susancollins]

I do think Washington and Lee is a better school academically, and it's so pretty. Having said that, it is not for everyone. It truly does have a very old-fashioned, Southern sensibility that is charming but extreme. I don't actually think William and Mary is conservative at all, though it does have some quaint Southern customs as well.

[HeavenWood]

The rankings beyond the T14 don't matter. Period. End of story.

They don't matter in that they don't determine anything. But they certainly reflect quality of schools in large bunches.

I.e. top 30 is better than the last two tiers.

orly? Then can you explain why 101-ranked Villanova places more people into biglawl than #26 Indiana?

I'm not saying there isn't a correlation beyond the T1417, but it's loose enough that it should not dictate where you ultimately attend.

[TyrodTaylor]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... peek-.html

[coocookuhchoo]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... peek-.html

Super helpful, thanks a lot. I knew they were hiding something behind all the graphs in their employment packet

[CwallXC322]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... peek-.html

Super helpful, thanks a lot. I knew they were hiding something behind all the graphs in their employment packet

What hiding has W&L done? I think they've been pretty upfront about their school hires.

[srfngdd6]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... peek-.html

Super helpful, thanks a lot. I knew they were hiding something behind all the graphs in their employment packet

What hiding has W&L done? I think they've been pretty upfront about their school hires.

+1...unless you mean hiding behind graphs to mean you cant read english and read a basic graph

[coocookuhchoo]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... peek-.html

Super helpful, thanks a lot. I knew they were hiding something behind all the graphs in their employment packet

What hiding has W&L done? I think they've been pretty upfront about their school hires.

+1...unless you mean hiding behind graphs to mean you cant read english and read a basic graph

I prefer the data be put out there as is, rather than wrapping it up in a bunch of graphs. That's probably just personal preference. I didn't mean to imply that WL is lying about their numbers. It was a casual remark; I apologize if I offended anyone. No need for the personal attacks.

I am a little curious about them supposedly employing 40ish percent of grads upon graduation. I know it's a small class, but isn't that a lot of kids to employ for such a small school? Or is that more or less standard?

I will say that I found William and Mary's employment report to be much more transparent and up front. Probably due to the presence of tables rather than graphs, but also because they were much more detailed. WL spent a lot of time talking about things I don't care as much about (but are important nonetheless) like by what means people found jobs, what summer jobs 1L's got, and how 1L's got those summer jobs.