Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova Forum

[Azmatt]

No. The mean salaries are adjacent to that column w/ the total # of graduates at those level of firms. When the mean doesn't shift down considerably when taking the 25/median/75 as given with the low number of graduates, you can take it as somewhat accurate.

5/8/8/16 is the distrubtion of grads on those tiers of firms. So, it's not as if a couple high #s in each quartile can mitigate the affect a 50k salary would be upon the overall mean.

I'm not foolish enough to speculate on my finishing rank as a 0L. I'm certainly not aiming for that.

[bobbyh1919]

I think Rutgers Newark is the way to go here, provided that you drop out if you lose your scholarship. Not that the cost would then become too much to handle, just that I don't see very many RU-N students with 2.X GPA's landing anything good.

[MarchMadness]

Not saying I agree with everything that fool Linsanity has said, but do you honestly believe someone has a better chance at getting a job in NYC from a mediocre NJ school than if he were to go to a school actually in the city like Cardozo or St. Johns? Don't be naive.

[Azmatt]

Not saying I agree with everything that fool Linsanity has said, but do you honestly believe someone has a better chance at getting a job in NYC from a mediocre NJ school than if he were to go to a school actually in the city like Cardozo or St. Johns? Don't be naive.

I didn't say I'd only work in NYC. I just said it was preferable. I certainly didn't say NYC was worth risking a 160k or bust w/ sticker price situation. Pretty sure this is a troll though.

[MarchMadness]

It's not a troll. I would not recommend going to a Jersey school unless you ONLY want to practice in NJ.

To me at least, it goes like this:

RU-N or SHU = NJ Life sentence. Enjoy working in NJ for life or don't go there
NY Schools = Get a solid NYC job and build on that. Can work in NJ or NYC because of the solid reputations of almost all of the NYC schools.

[superbloom]

It's clear none of us really know what we're talking about.

[MarchMadness]

It's clear none of us really know what we're talking about.

Probably the smartest and most accurate post of all-time on this site lol. And I'm being dead serious.

[sadsituationJD]

OP, I am a practicing small-firm lawyer in NJ, and STRONGLY advise you not to attend law school. The "market" in NJ is terrible, and the state has the 3rd highest oversupply/saturation in the country:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... a_deficit/

I use the word "market" in quotes because the reality is that there is no "market" for 99% of grads from TTT's like Rutgers, Seton Hall, St John's etc. In NJ McCarter & English (the state's largest firm) hasn't even had an SA class in I believe 3 years. Lownestein also has cut way back on hiring and laid off a ton of associates about 2 yrs ago. Sills Cummis and Porzio and other "midlaw" firms are now mostly hiring laterals who burned out on NYC Biglaw and want a few less hours for a substantial pay cut and easier commute.

The prior poster who mentioned the 50 K salary is basically correct, except the salary won't even be 50 K in all likelihood. Most small firms in NJ nowadays are offering 30-35 K to start, or a low hourly rate of say $15 to $20:

--LinkRemoved--

The mills like Stark & Stark or Wilson Elser (aka WEMED) pay a bit more, I think S&S pays about 52 K starting. WEMED from what I hear no longer hires anyone right out of school, you need a couple years ins. defense experience to get in. They pay about 60-65 K but require Biglaw type billiables for that $$$, and are known as a miserable "revolving door" firm.

Most temp/doc review gigs have left NYC for cheaper locales such as Charlotte NC, Wheeling WV, and other areas where office rents are cheap and attorneys will work for under $20 an hour. The few gigs left in NYC are mostly at $25 an hour or less and require substantial experience and decent grades/credentials:

--LinkRemoved--

I'd take your LSAT score as a "warning sign" that law simply isn't your "thing" and move on. You'll be competing against people on 100% schollys at these schools and combined with section stacking you'll likely lost the $$$ and then have to suffer the temptation of throwing good money after bad and actually getting your JD, or simply calling it quits. Why even put yourself in that position? Just this week both NY Magazine and the NY Post had articles on what a poor choice law school is for most people and how fraudulent the salary/employment stats are. You are a textbook example of someone who should run as fast and far as possible from this "profession."

[MarchMadness]

The above post is a bit harsh. But it should ABSOLUTELY sway you from choosing RU-N.

[bobbyh1919]

OP, I am a practicing small-firm lawyer in NJ, and STRONGLY advise you not to attend law school. The "market" in NJ is terrible, and the state has the 3rd highest oversupply/saturation in the country:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... a_deficit/

I use the word "market" in quotes because the reality is that there is no "market" for 99% of grads from TTT's like Rutgers, Seton Hall, St John's etc. In NJ McCarter & English (the state's largest firm) hasn't even had an SA class in I believe 3 years. Lownestein also has cut way back on hiring and laid off a ton of associates about 2 yrs ago. Sills Cummis and Porzio and other "midlaw" firms are now mostly hiring laterals who burned out on NYC Biglaw and want a few less hours for a substantial pay cut and easier commute.

The prior poster who mentioned the 50 K salary is basically correct, except the salary won't even be 50 K in all likelihood. Most small firms in NJ nowadays are offering 30-35 K to start, or a low hourly rate of say $15 to $20:

--LinkRemoved--

The mills like Stark & Stark or Wilson Elser (aka WEMED) pay a bit more, I think S&S pays about 52 K starting. WEMED from what I hear no longer hires anyone right out of school, you need a couple years ins. defense experience to get in. They pay about 60-65 K but require Biglaw type billiables for that $$$, and are known as a miserable "revolving door" firm.

Most temp/doc review gigs have left NYC for cheaper locales such as Charlotte NC, Wheeling WV, and other areas where office rents are cheap and attorneys will work for under $20 an hour. The few gigs left in NYC are mostly at $25 an hour or less and require substantial experience and decent grades/credentials:

--LinkRemoved--

I'd take your LSAT score as a "warning sign" that law simply isn't your "thing" and move on. You'll be competing against people on 100% schollys at these schools and combined with section stacking you'll likely lost the $$$ and then have to suffer the temptation of throwing good money after bad and actually getting your JD, or simply calling it quits. Why even put yourself in that position? Just this week both NY Magazine and the NY Post had articles on what a poor choice law school is for most people and how fraudulent the salary/employment stats are. You are a textbook example of someone who should run as fast and far as possible from this "profession."

I would definitely respect this advice with regards to the NJ market. Only part I disagree with is the idea that a bad LSAT score means law isn't his thing. It does mean that he should probably retake though.

SadsituationJD- What would you say the prospects are for a NJ kid who leaves for the T-14 and wants to come back? Since it's obviously dependent on grades and is just a hypothetical at this point, assume median.

[stillwater]

Sadsituation speaks the truth, even if unfashionable.

[sadsituationJD]

SadsituationJD- What would you say the prospects are for a NJ kid who leaves for the T-14 and wants to come back? Since it's obviously dependent on grades and is just a hypothetical at this point, assume median.

I think a T-14 coming back to NJ is actually a pretty good idea, assuming you strike out at NYC Biglaw (or even want it in the first place). Firms like Lowenstein during the boom would actually have to settle for the Straight-A "superstars" from the local TTT's like Rutgers and, to a much lesser extent, Seton Hall (in NJ itself R-N has a MUCH better reputation than SH, which has always been seem as something as a preppy dumping-ground for uber-rich North NJ richkids who lacked the LSAT for a "real" law school like at least Fordham).

But now that a much larger % of Top-14'ers are not getting Biglaw, the regional NJ firms like Lowenstein are scooping up some of these Biglaw/T-14 strikeouts who want to tuck their tail b/t their legs and practice in NJ (BTW Lowenstein is in a shitty building/area, and McCarter's offices are downright fucking embarassing, like the set of a 1970s porn flick- they have like paneling and shit on the wall, worn-out carpets, just not posh at all).

Of course, this has further depressed the (non) market for grads of TTT like R-N and SH, who now can find themselves in the top 5% or so and still stuck with no offers. I think places like Lowenstein would rather take the bottom 1/3 from say Columbia than a superstar from a TTT, since having those fancy "brand name" JD's on the website boosts prestige and all.

For/to the OP though, you simply cannot expect or count on anything more than 30-35 K starting salary coming out of SJ, SH, R-N, 'BLS, or the other TTT's mentioned in your OP. I don't know of any small firms (and most of my friends are at small firms or solos) in NJ who are offering anything close to 50 K starting salary (and in fact most of them aren't even looking for any associates).

A good friend of mine with a collections practice in Bergen County NJ recently hired a class of 2010 R-N grad (it was the grad's first job BTW after 2 yrs of searching apparently) for $18 an hour to cover some routine appearances and cut/paste boilerplate motions together (collections work is pretty much a joke in terms of paperwork). He had to fire the kid already b/c he was trying too hard to "reinvent the wheel" and put all kinds of nonsense into the papers and such, and also badly botched some appearances (i.e. got grilled by judge and crapped pants). So now my buddy has me covering his gutter appearances and such as a favor until he can find a replacement.

You are likely to hear the phrase "don't reinvent the wheel" about 100X a day in your first gig, since you'll be full of piss & vinegar and ready to go all "Learned Hand" on some stupid default motion for a $300 bad debt owed a tow truck company or whatever. My advice is just cut/paste the forms you're given, and don't ask a lot of questions and such or be a nag-ass. In shitlaw us "veterans" have to spend every waking minute scrounging for work, so there's no time to really worry much about the so-called 'practice of law." I was at a condo board meeting last night until 10 pm trying to hustle some property tax appeal work from the association, and didn't get home until almost midnight ready to stick a gun in my mouth. You really have no idea how difficult it is to scrounge every dollar and the hustle for work never ends- the second you stop grinding you're out of business, since shitlaw is an eat-what-you-kill proposition. Hell, I have ad posters in the bathroom/billards room of a dive bar in Irvington NJ right now and often get calls at 2 am for arraignments and such when "Blade" or "T-Bone" catch a case. But for $500 bucks I'll be there at 7 am and get their asses sprung out of stir, and hopefully pick up some other work while in the basement from other desperate wives/family members who want their son/boyfriend/baby mamma moved to the front of the arraignment line (which ONLY happens when you have a private lawyer, preferably one like me who knows the clerk and desk people well and kisses/charms their ass).

Things are getting worse all the time for small firms, we did over 30 expungement last year but now the geniuses at the NJ Bar put a free expungement kit online with awesome forms and everyone is doing it themselves. Ditto for the property tax appeals (I struck out last night on that hustle, the association had a realtor on the board who was telling everyone "we can do this for free, I'll send everyone the link to the forms online, I did my own appeal, blah blah."

Shitlaw is rapidly becoming like travel agents and other pre-Internet businesses that were simply rendered obsolete by the web. Most routine "legal" work: LLC formation, property tax appeal, expungement- can all be done by any average layperson by downloading the forms and following the instructions. Real estate closings are deader than dead, foreclosure work is hogged by a few big mills, ditto for Ch 7 bankruptcies, and DWI loopholes have been eliminated to the point where almost everyone knows a lawyer is not getting you any better deal than what you could get for yourself (my last DWI case I handled in Lodi NJ, my client was the only one out of 20 people with a lawyer, and I only got him 60 days less of a suspension than the unrepresented folks got- big f'ing deal. He was super pissed and all the pro-se folks were telling him what a waste of money my services were. Oh, the only good thing is that in traffic court in NJ if you have a lawyer the lawyer cases get called first, so you get out of court at say 7:45 pm instead of midnite. That's about the extent of it.

Sorry if I'm shattering anyone's dreams, but this industry totally sucks and just about everyone I know wishes they had never gone into it, and most want to get out. Save yourself a lot of headache and don't get involved in this nightmare in the first place.

[bobbyh1919]

Thanks for the advice. That's kind of how I perceived things (regarding the T-14 part), I was just concerned that NJ firms would look at T-14 kids skeptically, afraid that they'd bolt for NYC or DC if given the chance.

[sadsituationJD]

Thanks for the advice. That's kind of how I perceived things (regarding the T-14 part), I was just concerned that NJ firms would look at T-14 kids skeptically, afraid that they'd bolt for NYC or DC if given the chance.

They won't be "given the chance." You simply don't "lateral' from a 2nd tier NJ firm like Lowenstein or McCarter into proper NYC biglaw, except maybe at partner level if you had a really huge, juicy piece of business to bring in. And actually in those cases it's usually the NYC biglaw partners who move "down," grabbing their clients and taking them to these joints for a bigger cut of the $$$ and getting to be "big fish in a small pond' so to speak.

And usually in those cases, the projects/clients the former NYC biglaw partners brought in to the NJ firms were the doc review/coding portions of the case, which had great "mark-up" value since you could take that piece of business to NJ and get doc review temp losers from TTT's like SH and R-N to work for $25 an hour, thus hogging a bigger % of their hourly rate (35 an hour used to be the "unoffical" floor rate for all doc review in NYC prior to late 2008 and the market crash). Also since office space in NJ is dirt cheap compared to NYC, clients liked to send this drone work across the river to the 2nd rate firms like McCarter. Of course the clients still kept the substantive portions of the case (motions, trial prep. negotiations etc) with the NYC white shoe shops, since they're paying for the juice and connections which of course places like Lowenstein and McCarter don't (and never will) have. That's what makes these NJ firms pretty miserable to work at: if they get Wall St type work it tends to be lower end stuff like compliance, doc review etc. These places are not really involved in substantive aspects of the "deals," but more like back office drone type stuff.

Of course in NJ they get some real work to do for smaller companies and probably some NJ gov't work, but there's a lot less of that stuff nowadays, hence the hiring freeze at McCarter and the Lowenstein bloodbath a couple years ago.

Realistically, the best you can hope for at a TTT like R-N or SH is something at Stark & Stark, which as I said pays rather low (like 50 K) to start. I think they still might hire some entry-level people, but nowadays there are so many experienced lawyers willing to work cheap that they likely take them before newbies. Stark & Stark is like a Wal-Mart type place- they do everything from condo board work to personal injury, will/trusts, collections, insurance defense, you name it. Of course you will get into whatever department has an opening- the days of picking what "type" of law you want to do ended long, long ago. I deal with Stark & Stark as adversaries pretty often, and most of their lawyers are pretty nice. A lot of them are women for whom it's kind of a "second-income" type thing, which is basically what law is becoming nowadays. Even in NJ, you aren't living very high on the hog trying to raise a family, buy a home, pay student loans etc on say 65 K a year, which is what someone 3 or 4 years into Stark is making. Rumor is the place is pretty chill and stress free.

RE: general TTT shitlaw, you're better off in NJ than NYC, as that's where the mega-lowballers tend to hang out. I'd be shocked if any small firm in Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx or even NYC is now offering much more than 30 K to start. Understand that running an ad for an "entry-level associate" on lawjobs or craigslist will result in a deluge of over 150 resumes a day, maybe more, so your negotiation power is zilch, esp. when you have no practical experience with the grind of shitlaw. Very few of these shops offer any health benefits either. There just isn't any reason to pony up anything above bare minimum for shitlaw, since the work is dull/routine and mostly cut n' pasted by paralegals and such anyway. The lawyers are just court appearance monkeys, akin to per diems.

That's why I ROTFL at kids on here quoting NALP and such as if it was gospel, and running all sorts of specious calculations and such like 'if I'm top 41.9% at St John's I will start at $57,300" and nonsense like that. You will "start" at whatever shitlaw shop makes you an offer, regardless of dollar amount. Beggars can't be choosers, and most new TTT JD's are the very definition of beggars.

[bobbyh1919]

What would you consider a good gig in NJ? What's a nice starting salary in Jersey look like?

[Azmatt]

so, if TT is now TTT, then is T6 actually TT?

[penguinbrah]

sadsituationjd.. you sound like one miserable dude.

[Azmatt]

Something concerning about him citing craigslist as a reliable source for reliable NJ law perspective....

[romothesavior]

Something concerning about him citing craigslist as a reliable source for reliable NJ law perspective....

Your wilful ignorance is kind of pathetic. You don't want to hear anything you don't already believe. You just want validation of your decision, and deride even practicing attorneys who tell you the cold hard truth. Enjoy Rutgers and subsequent debt peonage.

Sadsituation, please stick around TLS and continue sharing your perspective. This is great stuff, and some will listen.

[sadsituationJD]

What would you consider a good gig in NJ? What's a nice starting salary in Jersey look like?

Well, the NJ US Attorney's Office now offers a starting salary of 0 (zero) dollars:

http://www.mainjustice.com/2011/07/18/d ... legal-aid/

The NJ AG office also offers a starting salary of 0 dollars:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121274655

Camden laid off 18 prosecutors last year:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... 20454.html

And NJ Legal Aid laid off 25% of its lawyers and now the poor are supposed to just go to the law library and handle their problems themselves, as well as cuts/elimination of legal aid clinics at R-N and R-C:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-28/n ... gal-advice

Thus, things in the Garden State Gov't aren't too rosy for law grads. Anyone headed to law school with dreams of working for the gov't in Legal Aid or a prosecutor/AG office really needs to get their head out of the clouds and join us here in the "reality-based community." These cuts will likely get even worse, as plunging property values are killing tax revenue and rich folks are fleeing the state in droves.

NJ practice also sucks because pro-bono is mandatory if you're assigned a case by the bar. I got stuck with a domestic violence case myself late last year pro-bono and was in court the day before f'ing Thanksgiving with a white-trash couple who stunk like kerosene and liked to get hosed on Keystone Light and throw ashtrays at each other for recreation. It was like the 300th time they'd been to court and the judge just sent them to counselling and bounced since he had a plane to catch. No biggie, and they can't stick me w/ another pro-bono turd for at least 9 more months. My partner got stuck with one that was a committment hearing with a schizo woman who tried to bite him. She had to be fitted with one of those canvas hood/mouth guards like Hannibal Lecter wore.

So let me get this straight: you guys really want to JOIN this industry? If they required 6 months in a shitlaw office as a pre-req rather than the LSAT, law schools would be ghost towns.

[Azmatt]

What would you consider a good gig in NJ? What's a nice starting salary in Jersey look like?

Well, the NJ US Attorney's Office now offers a starting salary of 0 (zero) dollars:

http://www.mainjustice.com/2011/07/18/d ... legal-aid/

The NJ AG office also offers a starting salary of 0 dollars:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121274655

Camden laid off 18 prosecutors last year:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... 20454.html

And NJ Legal Aid laid off 25% of its lawyers and now the poor are supposed to just go to the law library and handle their problems themselves, as well as cuts/elimination of legal aid clinics at R-N and R-C:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-28/n ... gal-advice

Thus, things in the Garden State Gov't aren't too rosy for law grads. Anyone headed to law school with dreams of working for the gov't in Legal Aid or a prosecutor/AG office really needs to get their head out of the clouds and join us here in the "reality-based community." These cuts will likely get even worse, as plunging property values are killing tax revenue and rich folks are fleeing the state in droves.

NJ practice also sucks because pro-bono is mandatory if you're assigned a case by the bar. I got stuck with a domestic violence case myself late last year pro-bono and was in court the day before f'ing Thanksgiving with a white-trash couple who stunk like kerosene and liked to get hosed on Keystone Light and throw ashtrays at each other for recreation. It was like the 300th time they'd been to court and the judge just sent them to counselling and bounced since he had a plane to catch. No biggie, and they can't stick me w/ another pro-bono turd for at least 9 more months. My partner got stuck with one that was a committment hearing with a schizo woman who tried to bite him. She had to be fitted with one of those canvas hood/mouth guards like Hannibal Lecter wore.

So let me get this straight: you guys really want to JOIN this industry? If they required 6 months in a shitlaw office as a pre-req rather than the LSAT, law schools would be ghost towns.

Your altrusim is admirable.

[Azmatt]

Something concerning about him citing craigslist as a reliable source for reliable NJ law perspective....

Your wilful ignorance is kind of pathetic. You don't want to hear anything you don't already believe. You just want validation of your decision, and deride even practicing attorneys who tell you the cold hard truth. Enjoy Rutgers and subsequent debt peonage.

Sadsituation, please stick around TLS and continue sharing your perspective. This is great stuff, and some will listen.

Oddly enough, if you read my post and the subsequent responses, you'd have seen that I've already taken advice and considered the ramifications. Moreover, you'd have also realized that I don't necessarily discount rebuffs. However, I certainly question them. But, you're right. I doubt that's a worthy trait to have. I should listen to the gentleman with 30 posts and accept his determination as truth while changing life choices. Makes sense.

I'm now certain that I should ignore the other students, recent grads, practicing attorneys which I've conferred with.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really do much for me. It didn't when I heard about bros that made 160k from TTT schools super easy and it doesn't when I hear TT Rutgers is a gateway to 15$/hr Jobs.

[sadsituationJD]

Oh, I'm sure that's what it is. Not that I've done any research on my own or spoken with credible sources. Some guy with 30 posts who cites craigslist must be legit. I've spoken to practicing attorneys, even one in NJ. I've spoken to 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls and clerks. It's not that I won't listen to anyone who doesn't agree with me, it's that I won't listen to regurgitation that can easily be rebutted by just doing research which I've already done.

Your pitiful little opinion is noted.

This "some guy" has been a practicing small-firm lawyer in NJ for 7 years. And before you bash craigslist, please show us the top-secret database full of entry level NJ attorney jobs just waiting to be filled for 85 K starting salary plus benefits.

I challenge you to find even ONE entry-level attorney job on any other job site. I just took a quick look at NJ listings on lawjobs.com and didn't see a single position that required less than 2 years of specialized experience, and most of the jobs want 10+ years experience and/or portable business (i.e, ex-Biglaw folks).

[Azmatt]

--LinkRemoved--

"entry level to 5 years "

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/ ... G9209TYVHG

Spent 2 minutes there. Clearly more than you did...

Sad thing is, if your tone wasn't so weak, I might care more about what you're saying. But, it's pretty clear what your intentions are. I'm not convinced it's your desperate need to warn American youths who are heading to their financial doom.

[20130312]

The insight you have provided has been valuable, sad situation. If OP still wants to jump off the cliff, I don't think there's anything more that can be done to convince him otherwise. You know law kids, they all think they know more than you.