kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

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ypark87
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kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby ypark87 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:40 pm

hi all--

I was given a pretty decent scholarship at Kentucky (for those of you who know, the in-state tuition equalizer) and I know that if I go there, I will leave law school with not as much debt as I could at other schools. I have been reading a lot on many other posts and/or other Kentucky Law students that ties might be really important in the Lexington/Louisville/wherever in Kentucky market. So, since I don't have ties, does that mean I should be wary about attending the school, because I will not have a job after graduation? Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!

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stillwater
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby stillwater » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:51 pm

ypark87 wrote:hi all--

I was given a pretty decent scholarship at Kentucky (for those of you who know, the in-state tuition equalizer) and I know that if I go there, I will leave law school with not as much debt as I could at other schools. I have been reading a lot on many other posts and/or other Kentucky Law students that ties might be really important in the Lexington/Louisville/wherever in Kentucky market. So, since I don't have ties, does that mean I should be wary about attending the school, because I will not have a job after graduation? Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!


I'll respond to your subject line: yes.

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20130312
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:56 pm

ypark87 wrote:does that mean I should be wary about attending the school, because I will not have a job after graduation?!


stillwater wrote:yes.

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cinephile
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby cinephile » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:41 pm

Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.
If not, no.

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patrickd139
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:32 am

cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.
If not, no.

FTR, the bolded was not the case in my experience with Texas and OU.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:19 pm

cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.

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cinephile
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby cinephile » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:53 pm

jeeptiger09 wrote:
cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.


I don't know about that. I'm from Cincinnati and had plenty of high school friends go to UK for law school. They did fine both in Lexington/Louisville and coming back to Cincinnati. So, there are some exceptions to having direct ties to Kentucky.

ypark87
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby ypark87 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:42 pm

jeeptiger09 wrote:
cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.


So unless you have ties to a neighboring state, or in Kentucky, you're screwed.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:05 pm

While people with preexisting ties to the state that they want to work in prior to law school will do better in that state than people without those ties, people without those ties aren't automatically precluded from the market. It's pretty much impossible to quantify the value of those ties for the purpose of comparing people with or without them, as there are too many variables to take into account. As a result, any prospective law school student should keep in mind what state(s) they haves ties to, and, if they are looking at a law school in a state they don't have ties to, how that law school is viewed in the state(s) that they do have ties to (is it a peer or better?).

OP - Kentucky probably has a very small legal market. For that reason, you will likely face difficulty finding a job Furthermore, even if you found a job, you would hard-pressed to find a job paying more than $40,000 regardless of your ties (median salary for the -entire- class of 2010: $45,000 with 63% of the total class reporting)).

ypark87
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby ypark87 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:12 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:While people with preexisting ties to the state that they want to work in prior to law school will do better in that state than people without those ties, people without those ties aren't automatically precluded from the market. It's pretty much impossible to quantify the value of those ties for the purpose of comparing people with or without them, as there are too many variables to take into account. As a result, any prospective law school student should keep in mind what state(s) they haves ties to, and, if they are looking at a law school in a state they don't have ties to, how that law school is viewed in the state(s) that they do have ties to (is it a peer or better?).

OP - Kentucky probably has a very small legal market. For that reason, you will likely face difficulty finding a job Furthermore, even if you found a job, you would hard-pressed to find a job paying more than $40,000 regardless of your ties (median salary for the -entire- class of 2010: $45,000 with 63% of the total class reporting)).


Thanks for the advice. Really appreciate all the opinions on here!

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jeeptiger09
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:41 pm

ypark87 wrote:
jeeptiger09 wrote:
cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.


So unless you have ties to a neighboring state, or in Kentucky, you're screwed.


Ties to Indiana or Ohio are not sufficient to crack an extremely insular legal market in Kentucky.

ypark87
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby ypark87 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:39 pm

jeeptiger09 wrote:
ypark87 wrote:
jeeptiger09 wrote:
cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.


So unless you have ties to a neighboring state, or in Kentucky, you're screwed.


Ties to Indiana or Ohio are not sufficient to crack an extremely insular legal market in Kentucky.


So unless you have ties to Kentucky, you're screwed.

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stillwater
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby stillwater » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:43 pm

Totally boned.

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Gail
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby Gail » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:29 pm

Well. I thnk that we need to be honest about what ties means.

There are no hard rules, ties are based on a continuum. Do you have family there (up to SO and grandparents)? Have you ever lived in Kentucky? Own property there? These are the second best ties to being born and raised.

Honestly, the biggest problem isn't that you don't have ties. I think that's overblown. The biggest job downer is that you're looking at a second tier school in a small legal market, it isn't where you were born.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:35 pm

If you didn't go to high school or college in the state, you're going to have tough times. Like Gail said, some ties are better than others. In my opinion, the only ones that matter are high school or college (ones that can be articulated on a resume). When you apply for jobs and bid for interviews, you won't have the opportunity to explain that your grandparents live in _____ state, etc. Your cover letter might get read, but it might not.

Bottom line, in an insular tertiary market, you need to be able to demonstrate sufficient ties and it doesn't sound like you have them.

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Gail
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby Gail » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:54 pm

jeeptiger09 wrote:If you didn't go to high school or college in the state, you're going to have tough times. Like Gail said, some ties are better than others. In my opinion, the only ones that matter are high school or college (ones that can be articulated on a resume). When you apply for jobs and bid for interviews, you won't have the opportunity to explain that your grandparents live in _____ state, etc. Your cover letter might get read, but it might not.

Bottom line, in an insular tertiary market, you need to be able to demonstrate sufficient ties and it doesn't sound like you have them.


If they aren't going to take the time to read the cover letter, I kind of doubt they'll read more than the LS and GPA.

After having to screen through about 250 resumes recently myself, I can tell you that this is the case in business world. I looked at the GPA, then a little at work experience. Then I either put it in the box of pleasure or the box of pain.


Hide your UG underneath other stuff and don't list your high school. I know I will.

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franklyscarlet
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby franklyscarlet » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:10 pm

cinephile wrote:
jeeptiger09 wrote:
cinephile wrote:Depends on what you mean by no ties to Kentucky. Are you from a neighboring state? If so, it's probably fine.


For most states this would be true, but for Kentucky, the answer is no.


I don't know about that. I'm from Cincinnati and had plenty of high school friends go to UK for law school. They did fine both in Lexington/Louisville and coming back to Cincinnati. So, there are some exceptions to having direct ties to Kentucky.


I think cinci is a small exception, because it's so closely linked to Kentucky. This probably doesn't hold true for all of Ohio.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:24 pm

Gail wrote:If they aren't going to take the time to read the cover letter, I kind of doubt they'll read more than the LS and GPA.

After having to screen through about 250 resumes recently myself, I can tell you that this is the case in business world. I looked at the GPA, then a little at work experience. Then I either put it in the box of pleasure or the box of pain.


Hide your UG underneath other stuff and don't list your high school. I know I will.


Business =/= Law

Firms will rarely read your cover letters, but they will look at your entire resume. It takes less than 5 seconds to look at a resume and find maybe ONE thing that they like or one thing they dislike. They can make a decision on 50 candidates in 10 minutes. Reading cover letters is a whole different beast.

I wouldn't (and don't) put my high school on my resume either--the example was used to illustrate the point of having a tie that is easy to articulate.

ypark87
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby ypark87 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:51 am

jeeptiger09 wrote:
Gail wrote:If they aren't going to take the time to read the cover letter, I kind of doubt they'll read more than the LS and GPA.

After having to screen through about 250 resumes recently myself, I can tell you that this is the case in business world. I looked at the GPA, then a little at work experience. Then I either put it in the box of pleasure or the box of pain.


Hide your UG underneath other stuff and don't list your high school. I know I will.


Business =/= Law

Firms will rarely read your cover letters, but they will look at your entire resume. It takes less than 5 seconds to look at a resume and find maybe ONE thing that they like or one thing they dislike. They can make a decision on 50 candidates in 10 minutes. Reading cover letters is a whole different beast.

I wouldn't (and don't) put my high school on my resume either--the example was used to illustrate the point of having a tie that is easy to articulate.


So if you are from Kentucky, went away for college, then went back to law school in KY, then there is no way of firms of knowing you have ties if you don't list your HS, so how would they know you're from the state? Or have ties? I guess now I'm confused.

I kind of like what the poster above said about the bigger problem being going to a second-tier school in a small market being more of a problem--thoughts?

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Gail
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby Gail » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:48 pm

ypark87 wrote:
So if you are from Kentucky, went away for college, then went back to law school in KY, then there is no way of firms of knowing you have ties if you don't list your HS, so how would they know you're from the state? Or have ties? I guess now I'm confused.

I kind of like what the poster above said about the bigger problem being going to a second-tier school in a small market being more of a problem--thoughts?


Jeeptiger and I are just going to disagree about the relevance of ties, I bet. I personally don't think that they matter quite as much as most people here do and that those who claim they got burned by not having ties are probably not considering something else that held them back (like school, personality, whatever). Don't hang too much on that, though. I'm in the minority. Though I did just recently talk to a hiring partner in Milwaukee that one of my UG professors hooked me up with, he agrees that ties are comparatively negligible.

He might be a minority too, though.


Take everything you hear on TLS with a grain of salt. We're all about as clueless as the next guy/gal. Few here have done LS yet. Most of us are either 0L, 1L, or 2L. Most of the previous members are probably too busy. I think that's a good sign though because they probably aren't busy at the soup kitchen, I imagine that they have jobs.


Ignorance is pervasive here. Even the older members are immature about job expectations. At the end of the day, it's your life. If it doesn't work out, well... That sucks. But you won't die. You'll probably live life as you would have if you never bothered trying. Avoiding debt collectors all along the way.

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cinephile
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby cinephile » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm

Gail wrote: Most of the previous members are probably too busy. I think that's a good sign though because they probably aren't busy at the soup kitchen, I imagine that they have jobs.


People may have jobs, but that doesn't mean those jobs are JD required, full-time, or pay a decent salary/have benefits. Even if it is a decent job, considering all the debt people take on, they'd have been better off not getting the JD.

Gail wrote:If it doesn't work out, well... That sucks. But you won't die. You'll probably live life as you would have if you never bothered trying. Avoiding debt collectors all along the way.


Nobody argued that you would die by going to law school. Only that you'd be so deeply in debt that you would regret the decision to go to law school. And if it doesn't work out, you're a lot worse off than if you never tried. You look like a flight risk/overqualified for a lot of non-legal positions, and defaulting on your loans (which is what you seem to advocate) has a lot of terrible implications.

But to address the OP, Kentucky is not a good choice for you. Where are you from? Where else were you accepted? Are you willing to retake?

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jeeptiger09
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby jeeptiger09 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:56 am

ypark87 wrote:So if you are from Kentucky, went away for college, then went back to law school in KY, then there is no way of firms of knowing you have ties if you don't list your HS, so how would they know you're from the state? Or have ties? I guess now I'm confused.


Permanent and school addresses on your resume.

Gail wrote:Jeeptiger and I are just going to disagree about the relevance of ties, I bet. I personally don't think that they matter quite as much as most people here do and that those who claim they got burned by not having ties are probably not considering something else that held them back (like school, personality, whatever). Don't hang too much on that, though. I'm in the minority. Though I did just recently talk to a hiring partner in Milwaukee that one of my UG professors hooked me up with, he agrees that ties are comparatively negligible.


As someone who has been through the hiring process and is very familiar with the legal market at hand, I am telling you that it doesn't sound like you have sufficient ties. This is of course subjective and everyone has different standards or measures, but I'm giving you information as someone who has gone through the process (and I had multiple offers, so I'm not just giving OP the perspective of someone who "got burned by not having ties").

Gail wrote:Take everything you hear on TLS with a grain of salt. We're all about as clueless as the next guy/gal. Few here have done LS yet. Most of us are either 0L, 1L, or 2L.


Just because you're a 0L trying to talk about something you have no idea about doesn't mean the rest of us are clueless.

OP I would be happy to discuss this further with you. Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have.

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romothesavior
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:51 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
ypark87 wrote:does that mean I should be wary about attending the school, because I will not have a job after graduation?!


stillwater wrote:yes.

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romothesavior
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:53 pm

Gail, you are a joke. A 0L telling 2Ls and 3Ls that ties don't matter that much? Lolok.

rad lulz
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Re: kentucky -- no ties -- bad?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:20 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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