Vandy vs. UVA

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ccmbr006
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Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:31 pm

90k scholly at UVA vs. 110k scholly at Vandy. I want to practice in Atlanta, so what would UVA offer me that would justify the cost (20k/yr vs 10k)?

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booboo
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby booboo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:33 pm

A better chance at penetrating the small Atlanta market. Though both schools are well regarded in the South, UVA is still the premiere Southern law school. I would go to UVA with no hesitation.

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bk1
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:34 pm

booboo wrote:A better chance at penetrating the small Atlanta market. Though both schools are well regarded in the South, UVA is still the premiere Southern law school. I would go to UVA with no hesitation.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:39 pm

To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?

bdubs
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby bdubs » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:42 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Haha, if you're assumption is that the average salary for a Vandy graduate is the same as the average for a UVA grad, you're sorely mistaken.

OP: take UVA, vandy is not worth the risk for 10k/year

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 pm

In Atlanta, yeah, they are. Big firms top out at 135 there.

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bk1
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:44 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:In Atlanta, yeah, they are. Big firms top out at 135 there.


Not everyone who wants one of those jobs gets them. The rationale is that it will likely be easier to snag one from UVA than it would be from Vandy.

de5igual
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby de5igual » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:45 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:In Atlanta, yeah, they are. Big firms top out at 135 there.


the average vandy kid isn't getting the big firm atlanta gig

the average uva kid probably is (maybe minus this year)

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booboo
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby booboo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:46 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:48 pm

bk1 wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:In Atlanta, yeah, they are. Big firms top out at 135 there.


Not everyone who wants one of those jobs gets them. The rationale is that it will likely be easier to snag one from UVA than it would be from Vandy.



Right, but the question I've got is whether the extra cost in terms of tuition gives you a 1:1 bump in likelihood of finding one of the big jobs, or if it's a relatively small increase.

chiwachiwa
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby chiwachiwa » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:50 pm

Go to UVA, no question

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:51 pm

booboo wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.


Did you mean a maximum of 30k?

I think investment-return is probably about the best analysis anyone can do when considering these things...

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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby booboo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:53 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:
booboo wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.


Did you mean a maximum of 30k?

I think investment-return is probably about the best analysis anyone can do when considering these things...


One: No, because I don't know what cost of living differences are.

Two: I agree, but investment return is actually a risk aversion analysis, with very little information to operate that analysis upon. There is a decent chance you're going to be shut out of the Atlanta market. What will you do then?

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:55 pm

Go to Augusta or Savannah.

bdubs
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby bdubs » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:55 pm

ccmbr006 wrote:
booboo wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.


Did you mean a maximum of 30k?

I think investment-return is probably about the best analysis anyone can do when considering these things...


Are you completely risk neutral when it comes to your career, or does the prospect of no job and no prospects scare the bejeezez out of you?

If you're really risk neutral (don't know many who are in this respect), then go ahead and do your analysis based solely on the career statistic tables from Vandy and UVA. Otherwise, take UVA and don't look back. It's not a lot of money when you consider the general return on your investment (assuming you don't make 135/160k per year now with lockstep raises and bonuses).

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:58 pm

bdubs wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:
booboo wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:To be sure I'm understanding, you'd pay literally twice as much to have the exact same salary?


Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.


Did you mean a maximum of 30k?

I think investment-return is probably about the best analysis anyone can do when considering these things...


Are you completely risk neutral when it comes to your career, or does the prospect of no job and no prospects scare the bejeezez out of you?

If you're really risk neutral (don't know many who are in this respect), then go ahead and do your analysis based solely on the career statistic tables from Vandy and UVA. Otherwise, take UVA and don't look back. It's not a lot of money when you consider the general return on your investment (assuming you don't make 135/160k per year now with lockstep raises and bonuses).


The prospect of making an unnecessary expenditure bothers me. Why spend more for the same outcome?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:00 am

ccmbr006 wrote:
The prospect of making an unnecessary expenditure bothers me. Why spend more for the same outcome?


Why spend money at all for any law school? Surely you could get a full ride somewhere, but you are taking on some level of debt for the improved job prospects. UVA's prospects are better than Vandy's, and are worth paying a premium for.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:01 am

Phrasing it like that is deceiving. If it was paying 30k a year versus 60k a year would entail a different analysis. You're looking at, a minimum of, 30k difference in the two options. To be able to go to the best school in the South is worth that difference to me. Note also that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, UVA's degree travels much better to many more markets than Vanderbilt (though I concede Vanderbilt also has good placement power, just not to the level of UVA). New York is the only market that anyone could feel safe in going all-in on, and that is also risky. UVA will help your chances at getting a job, don't worry about salaries just yet.[/quote]

Did you mean a maximum of 30k?


I think investment-return is probably about the best analysis anyone can do when considering these things...[/quote]

Are you completely risk neutral when it comes to your career, or does the prospect of no job and no prospects scare the bejeezez out of you?

If you're really risk neutral (don't know many who are in this respect), then go ahead and do your analysis based solely on the career statistic tables from Vandy and UVA. Otherwise, take UVA and don't look back. It's not a lot of money when you consider the general return on your investment (assuming you don't make 135/160k per year now with lockstep raises and bonuses).[/quote]

The prospect of making an unnecessary expenditure bothers me. Why spend more for the same outcome?[/quote]

Or to look at it another way, say I get hosed and end up in a DA's office in some jerk water county, 30k + COL sounds better than 60k + COL.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:03 am

ccmbr006 wrote:
Or to look at it another way, say I get hosed and end up in a DA's office in some jerk water county, 30k + COL sounds better than 60k + COL.


That's when LRAP kicks in. Don't know much about LRAPs myself but I'd imagine UVA wins there too.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:04 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:
The prospect of making an unnecessary expenditure bothers me. Why spend more for the same outcome?


Why spend money at all for any law school? Surely you could get a full ride somewhere, but you are taking on some level of debt for the improved job prospects. UVA's prospects are better than Vandy's, and are worth paying a premium for.



But exactly how much better? As you follow the rankings on up, you see diminishing returns, so what is compelling difference?

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mr_unemployed
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby mr_unemployed » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 am

Since a number of TLSers are weighing Vandy and UVA, I thought we could open this thread up to other "Vandy v. UVA" situations (x-post from In at VULS thread).

In-state tuition but $0 merit money from UVA (though I will negotiate as soon as I know my $$ situations at other schools). On the other hand, Vandy has offered me $75k.

Two questions:
(1) What is the likelihood that UVA will be willing to negotiate?
(2) Assuming I don't get money from UVA, is it worth paying sticker? All things equal, I'd choose UVA hands down. Not particularly interested in Big Law career-wise; planning to go a non-profit / academic route.

Also, interested in dual degree-ing at UVA; if anyone is considering same, let's talk.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 am

mr_unemployed wrote:Since a number of TLSers are weighing Vandy and UVA, I thought we could open this thread up to other "Vandy v. UVA" situations (x-post from In at VULS thread).

In-state tuition but $0 merit money from UVA (though I will negotiate as soon as I know my $$ situations at other schools). On the other hand, Vandy has offered me $75k.

Two questions:
(1) What is the likelihood that UVA will be willing to negotiate?
(2) Assuming I don't get money from UVA, is it worth paying sticker? All things equal, I'd choose UVA hands down. Not particularly interested in Big Law career-wise; planning to go a non-profit / academic route.

Also, interested in dual degree-ing at UVA; if anyone is considering same, let's talk.


I'd also like to know whether UVA will be likely to negotiate, but my gut is no.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:10 am

ccmbr006 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:
The prospect of making an unnecessary expenditure bothers me. Why spend more for the same outcome?


Why spend money at all for any law school? Surely you could get a full ride somewhere, but you are taking on some level of debt for the improved job prospects. UVA's prospects are better than Vandy's, and are worth paying a premium for.



But exactly how much better? As you follow the rankings on up, you see diminishing returns, so what is compelling difference?


I'd pay an extra 50K for UVA and I'm sure others would pay even more. At the same time there are people who choose Vandy over UVA at the same money, and it's not the worst decision in the world if it's the right fit for you. But UVA's job prospects over time are simply better.

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bk1
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby bk1 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:26 am

ccmbr006 wrote:But exactly how much better? As you follow the rankings on up, you see diminishing returns, so what is compelling difference?


That you only get one shot at a job with a big firm and UVA will generally give you a better shot at it. Even if you're not getting double the chances for double the money, I'm not sure that's the most compelling argument against (if UVA cost $2 and Vandy cost $1, it'd be a no-brainer even though you're not getting double for double).

The problem is that data to give you an informed choice simply does not exist. You're going to have to make a judgment call in the end. Biglaw data does exist and you're right that in general it shows that UVA was only 15%ish (on an absolute scale) better than Vandy during the boom. But the recession has hit hard and the most recent data makes UVA look almost twice as good as Vandy. Granted that the NLJ data is very NYC-centric which creates a problem. I'd take UVA because the South has shed more jobs than other markets and firms seemed to respond to this by cutting more of the people they hire from non-T14's than they do from T14's. It is a best guess and you're free to make your own. I think most people on TLS (like lawyers generally) are risk-averse and thus would pay 30k more for UVA even for a 15% increase in odds.

ccmbr006
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Re: Vandy vs. UVA

Postby ccmbr006 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:51 am

bk1 wrote:
ccmbr006 wrote:But exactly how much better? As you follow the rankings on up, you see diminishing returns, so what is compelling difference?


That you only get one shot at a job with a big firm and UVA will generally give you a better shot at it. Even if you're not getting double the chances for double the money, I'm not sure that's the most compelling argument against (if UVA cost $2 and Vandy cost $1, it'd be a no-brainer even though you're not getting double for double).

The problem is that data to give you an informed choice simply does not exist. You're going to have to make a judgment call in the end. Biglaw data does exist and you're right that in general it shows that UVA was only 15%ish (on an absolute scale) better than Vandy during the boom. But the recession has hit hard and the most recent data makes UVA look almost twice as good as Vandy. Granted that the NLJ data is very NYC-centric which creates a problem. I'd take UVA because the South has shed more jobs than other markets and firms seemed to respond to this by cutting more of the people they hire from non-T14's than they do from T14's. It is a best guess and you're free to make your own. I think most people on TLS (like lawyers generally) are risk-averse and thus would pay 30k more for UVA even for a 15% increase in odds.


Thoughtful. Thank you.




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