Penn vs. NYU

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Ron Howard
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Ron Howard » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:38 pm

run26.2 wrote:
kaiser wrote:
jetissent wrote:Reviving this threat instead of making a second. I am facing the same decision. If Penn matches my NYU scholly I don't think I can justify the COL difference between Philly and NYC. I've visited both an NYU is offering tiny dorm apartments w/out an common space for almost 1500/month. At Penn I could share a decent 2 bedroom apartment for around 1k each. If you're planning on 12 month leases that's 6k a year. x3 years= 18k.

I know people say once you're over 150k in loans some differences are negligible but 18k is 18k....

That said, Philly is NOT Manhattan. Is Manhattan life worth 6k a year over Philly? :/


I had a choice between the 2, and went with NYU (as a transfer). In fact we had a number of Penn students transfer over into NYU this year, so there is obviously something to it.

P.S. And after my 7 months here at NYU, I can safely say that this is an amazing place to be, both school-wise and city-wise


I had these schools as options as a transfer and I chose Penn. Not to say NYU isn't amazing (it is), but I believe Penn's employment outcomes are slightly better.

When I transferred, there were more employers from DC going to Penn than NYU. DC was the market I was originally targetting, so I chose Penn. Plus, I wanted to save money.

There are compelling reasons for each one. To some people, being in NYC for some period of their life is an opportunity they cannot pass up. I just wouldn't make the choice based on a perception that NYU is inherently a better law school as I think you can make a case that each school has its own strengths.


I don't think Penn has better placement ability than NYU at all. I think NYU just has a decent contingent of students who actually care about something other than lining their pockets.

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ymmv
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby ymmv » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:21 am

Brut wrote:penn doesn't have better biglaw placement, it just places more students in biglaw
nyu traditionally has lower levels of participation in oci due to a large number of pi gunners

also remember mba is an extra year and a lot of extra cost


MBA isn't an extra year at Penn. I still don't know why anyone would do a JD/MBA though.

run26.2
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:00 am

Ron Howard wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
kaiser wrote:
jetissent wrote:Reviving this threat instead of making a second. I am facing the same decision. If Penn matches my NYU scholly I don't think I can justify the COL difference between Philly and NYC. I've visited both an NYU is offering tiny dorm apartments w/out an common space for almost 1500/month. At Penn I could share a decent 2 bedroom apartment for around 1k each. If you're planning on 12 month leases that's 6k a year. x3 years= 18k.

I know people say once you're over 150k in loans some differences are negligible but 18k is 18k....

That said, Philly is NOT Manhattan. Is Manhattan life worth 6k a year over Philly? :/


I had a choice between the 2, and went with NYU (as a transfer). In fact we had a number of Penn students transfer over into NYU this year, so there is obviously something to it.

P.S. And after my 7 months here at NYU, I can safely say that this is an amazing place to be, both school-wise and city-wise


I had these schools as options as a transfer and I chose Penn. Not to say NYU isn't amazing (it is), but I believe Penn's employment outcomes are slightly better.

When I transferred, there were more employers from DC going to Penn than NYU. DC was the market I was originally targetting, so I chose Penn. Plus, I wanted to save money.

There are compelling reasons for each one. To some people, being in NYC for some period of their life is an opportunity they cannot pass up. I just wouldn't make the choice based on a perception that NYU is inherently a better law school as I think you can make a case that each school has its own strengths.


I don't think Penn has better placement ability than NYU at all. I think NYU just has a decent contingent of students who actually care about something other than lining their pockets.

Well an objective person could look at the data and draw her own conclusions.

kaiser
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby kaiser » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:08 am

Look up any of the top 25 (or even the top 50) firms and count how many Penn grads they have vs. NYU grads. You will see pretty fast that NYU blows away Penn in this area (even once you have adjusted for difference in class size). Of course, part of that is that most of the firms are in NY, but that alone wouldn't explain the disparity. If going to a top biglaw firm is you goal, then NYU is the way to go.

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby kaiser » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:06 am

I was bored so I randomly checked a few firm sites to tease out the numbers. Maybe this could be of use to someone making a decision between the two schools:

Cleary: NYU - 143 , Penn - 35
Latham: NYU - 83 , Penn - 38
Paul Weiss: NYU - 105 , Penn - 34
Covington: NYU - 44 , Penn - 29
Sidley: NYU - 85 , Penn - 33
Ropes: NYU - 64 , Penn - 29
Paul Hastings: NYU - 54 , Penn - 23
Arnold: NYU - 33 , Penn - 13
Akin Gump: NYU - 58 , Penn - 17
Hogan: NYU - 67 , Penn - 22
Proskauer: NYU - 72 , Penn - 22
Orrick: NYU - 31, Penn - 15
K&L Gates: NYU - 43 , Penn 22

Total: NYU - 882 , Penn - 332

Of course, NYU has a larger student body, so we have to adjust for class size. Most recent enrolling class for NYU was 450, and Penn was 250 (so Penn's class is 55% the size of NYU's). Accounting for that, you would expect to see Penn with around 485, but thats not the case. And keep in mind that I specifically included a number of DC-based firms (Covington, Arnold, Hogan, Akin) and a PA-based firm (K&L Gates) to see if the advantage would swing. Had I searched a few more NY-based firms, the disparity surely would have gotten larger.

03152016
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:35 am

nyu has 10% higher pi than penn. 10% is not an accident, it's not statistical noise
pi is huge at nyu; there are objectively far more people opting out of the biglaw track
if you don't believe me, look at the data on LST yourself and draw your own conclusions

also i happen to have both penn and nyu oci data
it's hard b/c different curves and bc there's a lot less of the nyu data
but i'd be willing to do as best a comparison of cut-offs as i can if one of you penn students can cough up some info about your curve

kaiser thx for posting that
i did a similar comparison a few months ago showing a significant advantage for nyu in v10 placement, it's in my post history
and that even excluded sullcrom data (which was absent from the nlj go to list for that year) that would likely give nyu even more of an advantage

i don't blame the new posters for thinking penn has better biglaw placement based on the bl+fc, but understand that this is wholly incorrect
penn has higher biglaw placement than harvard, yale, and stanford too
but that doesn't prove penn has a placement advantage over those schools

all the schools in this general range are fine for biglaw. the vast vast majority of those who want an offer get one
so go to the one you like more, go to the one in the city you want to spend three years of your life in, go to the one with the culture that suits you better
but if all else is truly equal, i'd recommend nyu every time, for the reasons stated above and earlier itt

run26.2
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:48 pm

In most of the recent years, except for 2013, Penn has led NYU in placement into the NLJ 250 (data taken from various sources because I don't have a law.com subscription):

c/o 2010:
Penn: 53.31%
NYU: 43.27%

c/o 2011:
Penn: 56.93%
NYU: 40.13%

c/o 2012:
Penn: 60.37%
NYU: 52.93%

c/o 2013:
Penn: 52.15%
NYU: 54.93%

c/o 2014:
Penn: 63.67%
NYU: 59.92%

I will readily admit that NYU has better placement into PI and into highly ranked Vault firms in NYC. I mean, WLKR was started by NYU alums. Yes, they can place there. But in terms of placement into biglaw generally, Penn tends to put a higher percentage of its class there.

There are problems with any of these data sets (e.g., maybe NYU grads stay longer at firms (explaining the discrepancy in the figures on a per-firm basis), maybe the top NYU students opt out of biglaw for PI (explaining why Penn has a higher percentage of its class in NLJ firms)). My opinion is that the figure of placement into the largest firms is a widely available and commonly accepted metric for measuring employment outcomes. The detail we get now was not available when I made my decision, and I still don't think that it is in a form that allows comparison of apples to apples, as illustrated by the NYU v. Penn comparison.

03152016
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:24 pm

a few thoughts, some which respond to the post run just made, some of which are just general things coming to mind

1) concerns about nlj250 as a metric
a. it does not factor in many elite boutiques, some of the hardest positions to get
b. it does not factor in prestigious gov't positions, which many turn down biglaw for
c. it does not factor in public interest positions, which as discussed, is huge at nyu and not at penn
--i. except for 2011, take any of the data you provided and add pi jobs, nyu has higher placement
--ii. there is historically high opt-out of oci at nyu
d. the data in the go to law schools survey has been historically less reliable than the 509 disclosures
e. nlj250 does not distinguish between v10 firms and firms like dla

2) i see how penn has "higher" biglaw placement, but readers should not think this translates into "superior" placement
a. nyu places a higher percentage at v10 as discussed. in my view, this indicates a general placement advantage, not just within v10 - hiring practices do not differ greatly between, say, a firm ranked 8 or 9 and a firm ranked 12 or 13.
b. wlrk started by nyu alums is not why they hire nyu grads, all of the very top firms have a healthy number of nyu grads. wlrk is not unique in this regard
c. as discussed, penn also has higher placement than harvard, stanford, or yale.
--i. no one would contend that penn has superior placement than hys
--ii. again, this is because you must consider the level of self-selection out of oci at these schools.
d. note also that firms reach deeper into nyu's class than they do at penn's
--i. i'm eyeballing it. still looking for penn curve info so i can do a more precise measurement and make this info public. can someone make this happen?

3) confirming that many of the top nyu students opt out
a. nyu is known for pi scholarships with strings attached - you must do pi to keep the money. see: rtk
b. same with the furman program, which only takes a few very very top students
c. nyu has had consistently very high oci success rate across every grade range. i believe close to 70% with below 3.0, which at nyu puts you solidly at the bottom of the class. 88% generally, and that's before jerbs from mass mail, referrals, networking, etc

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:26 pm

i agree that it does not allow apples to apples comparison
i also agree some stats are better than no stats
but, as we both clearly agree, stats don't tell the whole story
so prospective students would be wise to gather all of the relevant job placement info you can when making your decision

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby SowhatsNU » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:55 pm

Brut wrote:a few thoughts, some which respond to the post run just made, some of which are just general things coming to mind

1) concerns about nlj250 as a metric
a. it does not factor in many elite boutiques, some of the hardest positions to get
b. it does not factor in prestigious gov't positions, which many turn down biglaw for
c. it does not factor in public interest positions, which as discussed, is huge at nyu and not at penn
--i. except for 2011, take any of the data you provided and add pi jobs, nyu has higher placement
--ii. there is historically high opt-out of oci at nyu
d. the data in the go to law schools survey has been historically less reliable than the 509 disclosures
e. nlj250 does not distinguish between v10 firms and firms like dla

2) i see how penn has "higher" biglaw placement, but readers should not think this translates into "superior" placement
a. nyu places a higher percentage at v10 as discussed. in my view, this indicates a general placement advantage, not just within v10 - hiring practices do not differ greatly between, say, a firm ranked 8 or 9 and a firm ranked 12 or 13.
b. wlrk started by nyu alums is not why they hire nyu grads, all of the very top firms have a healthy number of nyu grads. wlrk is not unique in this regard
c. as discussed, penn also has higher placement than harvard, stanford, or yale.
--i. no one would contend that penn has superior placement than hys
--ii. again, this is because you must consider the level of self-selection out of oci at these schools.
d. note also that firms reach deeper into nyu's class than they do at penn's
--i. i'm eyeballing it. still looking for penn curve info so i can do a more precise measurement and make this info public. can someone make this happen?

3) confirming that many of the top nyu students opt out
a. nyu is known for pi scholarships with strings attached - you must do pi to keep the money. see: rtk
b. same with the furman program, which only takes a few very very top students
c. nyu has had consistently very high oci success rate across every grade range. i believe close to 70% with below 3.0, which at nyu puts you solidly at the bottom of the class. 88% generally, and that's before jerbs from mass mail, referrals, networking, etc


sorry to hijack this thread just a bit, but the information you guys have come up with is incredible...I'm a transfer student, accepted to both, must decide at the beginning of next week..having a lot of trouble...

I really want to go into sports (from what I understand, proskauer is best, and is only ~36 vault-ranked) is there any specific boost to either school? From the research I've done, most people in those positions (or of counsel positions in NBA/NFL) are penn grads

No real strong desire to live in/work in NY after graduation, so those things aside is NYU still the front-runner?

Assuming tuition is the same (is it not?) Do you think the extra ~20,000 for COL is worth it? (Rough number, but I'm rounding)

Thanks so much in advance! I'm losing my mind over this decision!

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:01 am

lsatismylifefornow wrote:Narrowed it down to these two.

Assume sticker at both.


Neither unless you have net worth of $5 million+.

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Ron Howard
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Ron Howard » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:44 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
lsatismylifefornow wrote:Narrowed it down to these two.

Assume sticker at both.


Neither unless you have net worth of $5 million+.


Where are you now and do you have a scholarship (and if so, how much)?

Eta: what is the coa?

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:43 am

NYU definitely has a placement advantage in NYC (and therefore at most prestigious vault firms), and if you're median at either you're probably going to be bidding mostly NY anyway.

Outside of NY they are peers from what I've heard.

And now that I'm not attending Penn I can try and be less biased lol

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby SowhatsNU » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:02 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:NYU definitely has a placement advantage in NYC (and therefore at most prestigious vault firms), and if you're median at either you're probably going to be bidding mostly NY anyway.

Outside of NY they are peers from what I've heard.

And now that I'm not attending Penn I can try and be less biased lol


At a T-20...did you graduate from penn or did you transfer ?

kaiser
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby kaiser » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:43 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:NYU definitely has a placement advantage in NYC (and therefore at most prestigious vault firms), and if you're median at either you're probably going to be bidding mostly NY anyway.

Outside of NY they are peers from what I've heard.

And now that I'm not attending Penn I can try and be less biased lol


Again, not sure what the basis is for that. In one thread, someone was considering CA, and was under the impression that NYU and Penn would be peers outside NY. Wasn't the case at all once we started to genuinely break out the numbers by looking at biglaw CA offices and seeing the placement for ourselves. NYU had far more representation once we actually took a look.

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Clemenceau » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:37 pm

kaiser wrote:I was bored so I randomly checked a few firm sites to tease out the numbers. Maybe this could be of use to someone making a decision between the two schools:

Cleary: NYU - 143 , Penn - 35
Latham: NYU - 83 , Penn - 38
Paul Weiss: NYU - 105 , Penn - 34
Covington: NYU - 44 , Penn - 29
Sidley: NYU - 85 , Penn - 33
Ropes: NYU - 64 , Penn - 29
Paul Hastings: NYU - 54 , Penn - 23
Arnold: NYU - 33 , Penn - 13
Akin Gump: NYU - 58 , Penn - 17
Hogan: NYU - 67 , Penn - 22
Proskauer: NYU - 72 , Penn - 22
Orrick: NYU - 31, Penn - 15
K&L Gates: NYU - 43 , Penn 22

Total: NYU - 882 , Penn - 332

Of course, NYU has a larger student body, so we have to adjust for class size. Most recent enrolling class for NYU was 450, and Penn was 250 (so Penn's class is 55% the size of NYU's). Accounting for that, you would expect to see Penn with around 485, but thats not the case. And keep in mind that I specifically included a number of DC-based firms (Covington, Arnold, Hogan, Akin) and a PA-based firm (K&L Gates) to see if the advantage would swing. Had I searched a few more NY-based firms, the disparity surely would have gotten larger.


Yeah but looking at the last few years of data, nyu graduates around 480-490 people, 65-70% of which going to NYC. Penn is traditionally closer to 260-270, and I only have last years data, but penn sent 45% of its class to nyc(granted, could be more in previous years). But with this in mind, I would expect Penns representation to be like 40% of NYU's, which is about where it is.

Not saying nyu doesn't have a placement advantage.. Just adding some nuance to the breakdown above

Kungfu Wontons
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Kungfu Wontons » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:44 pm

Penn because Ivy League

Plus Manhattan is great but living in a shoe box gets old quick.

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Ron Howard
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Ron Howard » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:58 pm

Kungfu Wontons wrote:Penn because Ivy League

Plus Manhattan is great but living in a shoe box gets old quick.

kaiser
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby kaiser » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:00 pm

Clemenceau wrote:
kaiser wrote:I was bored so I randomly checked a few firm sites to tease out the numbers. Maybe this could be of use to someone making a decision between the two schools:

Cleary: NYU - 143 , Penn - 35
Latham: NYU - 83 , Penn - 38
Paul Weiss: NYU - 105 , Penn - 34
Covington: NYU - 44 , Penn - 29
Sidley: NYU - 85 , Penn - 33
Ropes: NYU - 64 , Penn - 29
Paul Hastings: NYU - 54 , Penn - 23
Arnold: NYU - 33 , Penn - 13
Akin Gump: NYU - 58 , Penn - 17
Hogan: NYU - 67 , Penn - 22
Proskauer: NYU - 72 , Penn - 22
Orrick: NYU - 31, Penn - 15
K&L Gates: NYU - 43 , Penn 22

Total: NYU - 882 , Penn - 332

Of course, NYU has a larger student body, so we have to adjust for class size. Most recent enrolling class for NYU was 450, and Penn was 250 (so Penn's class is 55% the size of NYU's). Accounting for that, you would expect to see Penn with around 485, but thats not the case. And keep in mind that I specifically included a number of DC-based firms (Covington, Arnold, Hogan, Akin) and a PA-based firm (K&L Gates) to see if the advantage would swing. Had I searched a few more NY-based firms, the disparity surely would have gotten larger.


Yeah but looking at the last few years of data, nyu graduates around 480-490 people, 65-70% of which going to NYC. Penn is traditionally closer to 260-270, and I only have last years data, but penn sent 45% of its class to nyc(granted, could be more in previous years). But with this in mind, I would expect Penns representation to be like 40% of NYU's, which is about where it is.

Not saying nyu doesn't have a placement advantage.. Just adding some nuance to the breakdown above


I accounted for that by specifically picking a number of firms not based out of NYC (nor are my numbers limited to NYC offices). Had I picked all NYC-based firms, the disparity would have much much higher. Out of the 13 firms I checked the numbers for, 5 are either DC or PA-based, specifically to see if it closed the gap a bit (which it didn't).

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby rpupkin » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:13 pm

Kungfu Wontons wrote:Penn because Ivy League

Credited. This is why I chose Cornell over Stanford.

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Clemenceau
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Clemenceau » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:33 pm

kaiser wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:
kaiser wrote:I was bored so I randomly checked a few firm sites to tease out the numbers. Maybe this could be of use to someone making a decision between the two schools:

Cleary: NYU - 143 , Penn - 35
Latham: NYU - 83 , Penn - 38
Paul Weiss: NYU - 105 , Penn - 34
Covington: NYU - 44 , Penn - 29
Sidley: NYU - 85 , Penn - 33
Ropes: NYU - 64 , Penn - 29
Paul Hastings: NYU - 54 , Penn - 23
Arnold: NYU - 33 , Penn - 13
Akin Gump: NYU - 58 , Penn - 17
Hogan: NYU - 67 , Penn - 22
Proskauer: NYU - 72 , Penn - 22
Orrick: NYU - 31, Penn - 15
K&L Gates: NYU - 43 , Penn 22

Total: NYU - 882 , Penn - 332

Of course, NYU has a larger student body, so we have to adjust for class size. Most recent enrolling class for NYU was 450, and Penn was 250 (so Penn's class is 55% the size of NYU's). Accounting for that, you would expect to see Penn with around 485, but thats not the case. And keep in mind that I specifically included a number of DC-based firms (Covington, Arnold, Hogan, Akin) and a PA-based firm (K&L Gates) to see if the advantage would swing. Had I searched a few more NY-based firms, the disparity surely would have gotten larger.


Yeah but looking at the last few years of data, nyu graduates around 480-490 people, 65-70% of which going to NYC. Penn is traditionally closer to 260-270, and I only have last years data, but penn sent 45% of its class to nyc(granted, could be more in previous years). But with this in mind, I would expect Penns representation to be like 40% of NYU's, which is about where it is.

Not saying nyu doesn't have a placement advantage.. Just adding some nuance to the breakdown above


I accounted for that by specifically picking a number of firms not based out of NYC (nor are my numbers limited to NYC offices). Had I picked all NYC-based firms, the disparity would have much much higher. Out of the 13 firms I checked the numbers for, 5 are either DC or PA-based, specifically to see if it closed the gap a bit (which it didn't).


Oh I didn't see what you meant by that the first time. Makes more sense now

KL Gates isn't really a fair token PA firm though, considering they don't even have a philly office

Edit: but now I'm nitpicking. Interesting breakdown

kaiser
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby kaiser » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:40 pm

^^^

K&L Gates probably wasn't the best choice for a PA firm. Should have picked Morgan Lewis or Dechert. I just didn't want to pick a regional firm based out of Philly that would be pretty much all Penn grads, and close to no NYU. Not because I was afraid of the numbers, but because once you get to firms like Duane Morris, Ballard Spahr, Cozen O Connor, etc., these are firms that almost no NYU grads are shooting for since they have little to no NYC presence. I tried to limit to high level firms that grads of both schools shoot for, while adding in a substantial number of DC-based firms, since someone had made a claim about relative placement in DC.

run26.2
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby run26.2 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:06 pm

As I said before, a comparison of the number of attorneys from each school currently at a particular doesn't establish either school's superior placement. It could be that one school's attorneys stay longer or that one school has more lateral attorneys at the firm.

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Ron Howard
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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby Ron Howard » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:35 pm

run26.2 wrote:As I said before, a comparison of the number of attorneys from each school currently at a particular doesn't establish either school's superior placement. It could be that one school's attorneys stay longer or that one school has more lateral attorneys at the firm.


Does it really seem reasonable that there should exist a significant difference in the propensity of NYU and Penn students to remain with a particular firm? If so, what would be the cause? Would it be that students who "select" to attend Penn are by their nature more transient than NYU students? Or, would it be that Penn students don't last as long at any given firm? Why would that be?

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Re: Penn vs. NYU

Postby run26.2 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:00 am

.
Last edited by run26.2 on Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:15 am, edited 2 times in total.




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