Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

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gatorlaw
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Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby gatorlaw » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:33 pm

Georgetown at sticker or Miami at ~13k/year ?

I know the TLS consensus on T14 vs TTT, but I am interested in tax law/corporate immigration and I would like to live in Miami in the long run. I want to be a solo practitioner and am not very interested in biglaw.

I'm VERY confused, please help me TLS!

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cinephile
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby cinephile » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:06 am

I'd take Georgetown anyone, because you never know how you'll perform. Besides, if you're from Miami originally, it would probably be easy enough to go back.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:14 am

What is the final debt tally that you would have at either school?

Georgetown at sticker is generally a bad idea.

duckmoney
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby duckmoney » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:17 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:What is the final debt tally that you would have at either school?

Georgetown at sticker is generally a bad idea.


This is true, but Miami at anything less than guaranteed full ride is objectively a bad idea.

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Indifferent
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby Indifferent » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:24 am

gatorlaw wrote:Georgetown at sticker or Miami at ~13k/year ?

I know the TLS consensus on T14 vs TTT, but I am interested in tax law/corporate immigration and I would like to live in Miami in the long run. I want to be a solo practitioner and am not very interested in biglaw.

I'm VERY confused, please help me TLS!

Your odds of becoming a solo straight out of law school are low, just so you know. You're likely going to have to start at a small firm (2-10 attorneys) and build a reputation/client base.

If you're interested in tax or corporation immigration law, you'll want to start at a medium to large firm - you can always open up your own shop after a few years of experience and shaking hands. In that case, the clear answer is Georgetown. If you are from Miami, you have a significant advantage, since Miami firms like Miami natives (a lot). Georgetown is the clear winner because you will have a leg up on the some odd 500 or so UF/UM/FSU grads that want to work in Miami due to the name on your diploma.

Edited.
Last edited by Indifferent on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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goldenflash19
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby goldenflash19 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:10 am

If you're still considering Miami as the cycle winds down, try negotiating w/ them. If you can get into the T14, you should be able to get a more $ out of Miami or have the 3.2 stipulation removed. If you'd lose your scholly at Miami, you would only be saving approximately $25,000 on Miami tuition v Gtown tuition-ouch!.

slider
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby slider » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:10 am

flem wrote:For what it's worth, Miami's tax program is a top 5, if I remember right. Georgetown is more portable nationally. You'd have to do really well at Miami as you're competing with like 11 other law schools in the state.

You can take a Georgetown degree to Miami, but you can't take a Miami degree out of Florida.



I agree with this. GULC will give you more flexibility regionally and even grade-wise. Miami firms also recruit at GULC and are impressed by T14 degrees. You need near perfect grades from UMiami for a firm job. Competition is brutal. GULC is the better decision if you want mid to large firm practice in South Florida.

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:17 am

slider wrote:
flem wrote:GULC will give you more flexibility regionally and even grade-wise. Miami firms also recruit at GULC and are impressed by T14 degrees. You need near perfect grades from UMiami for a firm job. Competition is brutal. GULC is the better decision if you want mid to large firm practice in South Florida.


Yes. Also there is such a thing as corporation immigration law -- it's what BigLaw firms like Fragomen specialize in, which is working with corporations to submit HB1 visas for foreign skilled workers. Corporations hire BigLaw firms, and I don't even know if the top 5% at Miami would get you there. Even with higher debt, I think it's more important to have a well paying job after school than low debt and no job.

EDIT: GULC also has an excellent LRAP, and being in DC could open up doors to BigFed or immigration policy on the Hill or for a nonprofit or whatnot. I know you wanna live in SFla but...Miami is just not a great school.

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Indifferent
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby Indifferent » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:24 am

tennisking88 wrote:
slider wrote:
flem wrote:GULC will give you more flexibility regionally and even grade-wise. Miami firms also recruit at GULC and are impressed by T14 degrees. You need near perfect grades from UMiami for a firm job. Competition is brutal. GULC is the better decision if you want mid to large firm practice in South Florida.


Yes. Also there is such a thing as corporation immigration law -- it's what BigLaw firms like Fragomen specialize in, which is working with corporations to submit HB1 visas for foreign skilled workers. Corporations hire BigLaw firms, and I don't even know if the top 5% at Miami would get you there. Even with higher debt, I think it's more important to have a well paying job after school than low debt and no job.

EDIT: GULC also has an excellent LRAP, and being in DC could open up doors to BigFed or immigration policy on the Hill or for a nonprofit or whatnot. I know you wanna live in SFla but...Miami is just not a great school.

I didn't do any research into the area, I apologize. OP threw me off, since it sounded like a big law firm kind of practice area, yet OP insists he wants solo practice, so I assumed he just made a typo. My mistake.

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nealric
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby nealric » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:21 pm

I am a tax lawyer who went to Georgetown. Between the two, I would definitely choose Georgetown- the tax program will be hands-down better.

Feel free to pm with any specific questions.

gatorlaw
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby gatorlaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Thank you SO MUCH everybody. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.

I will negotiate with Miami to either have the stipulation removed or to increase the $ award. That being said, why is it a bad idea to pay sticker price at Georgetown?

Also, I'm a bit confused because the individual who interviewed me for Georgetown is a tax attorney working in Miami who said his firm hired many UMiami grads. I assume this means they have comparable salaries. That being said, where do most grads from schools like UMiami end up? Miami is a decent legal market, so I can't help but think that at least SOME graduates ARE working in the large firms down there...am I wrong?

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:01 pm

gatorlaw wrote:Thank you SO MUCH everybody. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.

I will negotiate with Miami to either have the stipulation removed or to increase the $ award. That being said, why is it a bad idea to pay sticker price at Georgetown?

Also, I'm a bit confused because the individual who interviewed me for Georgetown is a tax attorney working in Miami who said his firm hired many UMiami grads. I assume this means they have comparable salaries. That being said, where do most grads from schools like UMiami end up? Miami is a decent legal market, so I can't help but think that at least SOME graduates ARE working in the large firms down there...am I wrong?


I've been trying to find detailed placement stats from UM for about 15 minutes and I can't. To hell with detailed, I just want any stats besides their generic "84% of our class is employed" stat here --LinkRemoved--. Note how they said go to the CDO page for more info. But there isn't any more data on that page! This should be a red light. I would much rather take the debt at GULC. It's much better to have a job with debt than no job (or a shitty job) without it.

duckmoney
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby duckmoney » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:29 pm

gatorlaw wrote:Thank you SO MUCH everybody. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.

I will negotiate with Miami to either have the stipulation removed or to increase the $ award. That being said, why is it a bad idea to pay sticker price at Georgetown?

Also, I'm a bit confused because the individual who interviewed me for Georgetown is a tax attorney working in Miami who said his firm hired many UMiami grads. I assume this means they have comparable salaries. That being said, where do most grads from schools like UMiami end up? Miami is a decent legal market, so I can't help but think that at least SOME graduates ARE working in the large firms down there...am I wrong?


Yes, there are some graduates from UM working at the biggest a highest paying firms in Miami. Roughly the top 10% of the class is doing this. The next 1/3 or so of the class is working in lesser paying firms and government. The rest of the class is working in shitlaw, contract doc review, or is unemployed.

If you go to Miami and graduate top 10% you'll be in great shape. If you don't, you'll really regret not going to Georgetown.

That said, Georgetown has its own problems. Plenty of grads from there are unemployed (though significantly less than Miami) or end up working in shitlaw. And if you don't get biglaw or PI out of Georgetown, which is a real possibility, there's a good chance you'll never be able to pay off the debt.

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:07 pm

duckmoney wrote:
gatorlaw wrote:Thank you SO MUCH everybody. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.

I will negotiate with Miami to either have the stipulation removed or to increase the $ award. That being said, why is it a bad idea to pay sticker price at Georgetown?

Also, I'm a bit confused because the individual who interviewed me for Georgetown is a tax attorney working in Miami who said his firm hired many UMiami grads. I assume this means they have comparable salaries. That being said, where do most grads from schools like UMiami end up? Miami is a decent legal market, so I can't help but think that at least SOME graduates ARE working in the large firms down there...am I wrong?


Yes, there are some graduates from UM working at the biggest a highest paying firms in Miami. Roughly the top 10% of the class is doing this. The next 1/3 or so of the class is working in lesser paying firms and government. The rest of the class is working in shitlaw, contract doc review, or is unemployed.


Do you have any proof that this is true for c/o 2010, or 2011? Even for c/o 2009, when the legal market didn't quite hit the shitter just yet, Miami's stats are godawful (--LinkRemoved--). For God's sake do not choose UM over GULC. Also, like I mentioned earlier, GULC has a fantastic LRAP program (for PI/govt) and ties to a whole bunch of places in DC that will, barring horrific performance or total social inadequacy, almost certainly NOT leave her jobless.

EDIT: Also, what if you wake up one day and want to move out of Miami? A degree from Miami is a billion times less portable than one from GULC.
Last edited by tennisking88 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lobolawyer
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby lobolawyer » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:10 pm

Indifferent wrote:
gatorlaw wrote:Georgetown at sticker or Miami at ~13k/year ?

I know the TLS consensus on T14 vs TTT, but I am interested in tax law/corporate immigration and I would like to live in Miami in the long run. I want to be a solo practitioner and am not very interested in biglaw.

I'm VERY confused, please help me TLS!

Your odds of becoming a solo straight out of law school are low, just so you know. You're likely going to have to start at a small firm (2-10 attorneys) and build a reputation/client base.

If you're interested in tax or corporation immigration law, you'll want to start at a medium to large firm - you can always open up your own shop after a few years of experience and shaking hands. In that case, the clear answer is Georgetown. If you are from Miami, you have a significant advantage, since Miami firms like Miami natives (a lot). Georgetown is the clear winner because you will have a leg up on the some odd 500 or so UF/UM/FSU grads that want to work in Miami due to the name on your diploma.

Edited.


Why are OP's odds of doing solo after graduation slim? I know a ton of people who have done, some with great success. Personally, I would be scared to death of going solo immediately, but it can be done. And done well.

gatorlaw
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby gatorlaw » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Miami's placement is shady, to say the least. 20% of the class seems to be in great shape, though. But the data is from the class of '09. These numbers may have declined in recent years due to the economic downturn.

--LinkRemoved--

Georgetown only has ~50% of its class reporting salary. It looks good for that 50% but it scares me that it doesn't seem to reflect the red flags raised in this thread.

--LinkRemoved--

In your opinion, what is the best way to go solo? In other words, how can you increase the chances that your solo practice will be a successful one?

duckmoney
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby duckmoney » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:50 pm

gatorlaw wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best way to go solo? In other words, how can you increase the chances that your solo practice will be a successful one?


You need lots of capital, a dedicated mentor to help you in every aspect of the job, and a great network of connections to build a client base.

So unless daddy is rich as hell and knows everyone in town, you're probably better off with a firm first.

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:20 pm

lobolawyer wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
gatorlaw wrote:Georgetown at sticker or Miami at ~13k/year ?

I know the TLS consensus on T14 vs TTT, but I am interested in tax law/corporate immigration and I would like to live in Miami in the long run. I want to be a solo practitioner and am not very interested in biglaw.

I'm VERY confused, please help me TLS!

Your odds of becoming a solo straight out of law school are low, just so you know. You're likely going to have to start at a small firm (2-10 attorneys) and build a reputation/client base.

If you're interested in tax or corporation immigration law, you'll want to start at a medium to large firm - you can always open up your own shop after a few years of experience and shaking hands. In that case, the clear answer is Georgetown. If you are from Miami, you have a significant advantage, since Miami firms like Miami natives (a lot). Georgetown is the clear winner because you will have a leg up on the some odd 500 or so UF/UM/FSU grads that want to work in Miami due to the name on your diploma.

Edited.


Why are OP's odds of doing solo after graduation slim? I know a ton of people who have done, some with great success. Personally, I would be scared to death of going solo immediately, but it can be done. And done well.


This is anecdotal. Think about it. Unless you have a lot of money or strong ties to potential local clients, going solo straight out of school is probably an awful idea. Why would anyone hire you without work experience? What sane client would give you money to work out a deal you've never done in your life? You really do need firm experience to actually practice, so that when you do open up shop by yourself, you can say well I worked on corp. immigration for Firm X for so and so years and I graduated from X and I'll charge twice as less Firm X. That would make you attractive to that local client, because he has the presumption that you know what the hell you're doing. Just saying you did well in law school means nothing. Sane businessppl would not take that risk, unless they knew you well, personally.

Edit: Note that it's not the top 20% of the CLASS that did well in 2009: --LinkRemoved--

Only 76/374 grads (20%) who worked for private firms REPORTED their data. And of those, only ~15% so, or 11-12 people, made more than 85k!! Think about that. In 2009, when things were better than they are now, only 11 people, out of a class of 374, were known to make more than 85k. Stunning.

Edit #2: Tuition + off-campus housing at Miami (and this is for 2011, not 2012, when it's likely to go up) = $62,264. You got Miami Scholars (congrats). That still leaves you with ~$36k in debt, per year. Leaving you with ~110k in debt. (--LinkRemoved--)

Tuition + off-campus housing at GULC = ~70k/yr. You end up with ~210k in debt from GULC. Is that 100k worth the gap? ABSOLUTELY. If you take that 100K over 30 years, it's merely a hundred or so dollars more per month. And in return you'll get way more job prospects (including a great LRAP which would forgive this bigass loan after 10 years!) and a way more portable degree.

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caputlupinum
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby caputlupinum » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:07 pm

tennisking88 wrote:

Only 76/374 grads (20%) who worked for private firms REPORTED their data. And of those, only ~15% so, or 11-12 people, made more than 85k!! Think about that. In 2009, when things were better than they are now, only 11 people, out of a class of 374, were known to make more than 85k. Stunning.



This is wrong those quartiles (the 5.08% 5.08% 5.08% 5.08%) are of the entire class not just of the 76/374=20.3% who reported salaries. So 15% of the entire class or 3 of the quartiles of the 20.3% who reported make above 85k. Still shitty stats but I hate to see statistics interpreted wrong.

gatorlaw
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby gatorlaw » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:29 pm

Thank you SO much. Honestly. This is a very tough decision, which is perhaps made a lot harder by the fact that I didn't grow up in this country, and this information isn't exactly shared by the law schools you apply to. Obviously, I knew there were differences between UMiami and Georgetown, but I didn't know the discrepancy was so deep seeded.

What do you guys think of Tax Law? A friend of mine keeps insisting that I at least consider it as an area of practice. What the type of work would I be doing? Is solo practice (after experience) a common occurrence amongst tax lawyers?

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:02 pm

gatorlaw wrote:Thank you SO much. Honestly. This is a very tough decision, which is perhaps made a lot harder by the fact that I didn't grow up in this country, and this information isn't exactly shared by the law schools you apply to. Obviously, I knew there were differences between UMiami and Georgetown, but I didn't know the discrepancy was so deep seeded.

What do you guys think of Tax Law? A friend of mine keeps insisting that I at least consider it as an area of practice. What the type of work would I be doing? Is solo practice (after experience) a common occurrence amongst tax lawyers?


Why don't you decide what you want to do after you take a few classes. It sounds like you're not set on a particular field, so why would you choose a school based on a field you don't know you'll like? Also, odds are good that whatever field it is, a degree from Georgetown will be of infinitely more value.

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:08 pm

caputlupinum wrote:
tennisking88 wrote:

Only 76/374 grads (20%) who worked for private firms REPORTED their data. And of those, only ~15% so, or 11-12 people, made more than 85k!! Think about that. In 2009, when things were better than they are now, only 11 people, out of a class of 374, were known to make more than 85k. Stunning.



This is wrong those quartiles (the 5.08% 5.08% 5.08% 5.08%) are of the entire class not just of the 76/374=20.3% who reported salaries. So 15% of the entire class or 3 of the quartiles of the 20.3% who reported make above 85k. Still shitty stats but I hate to see statistics interpreted wrong.


That's right, my bad. So instead of 11/374 making only 85k+, it's now 56/374. Better, but still awful. Did I mention this was for 2009? They refuse to release info on classes of 2010 and 2011 that fared much, much worse.

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bk1
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm

Are UF/FSU not options?

While GULC at sticker is quite risky, I think $13k/year from Miami is just too little to make it worth considering. UM will still cost you upwards of $140k before interest.

tennisking88
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby tennisking88 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:15 pm

bk1 wrote:Are UF/FSU not options?

While GULC at sticker is quite risky, I think $13k/year from Miami is just too little to make it worth considering. UM will still cost you upwards of $140k before interest.


She's getting 26k at Miami, for a ~14k per year cost to her. With living expenses it would leave her ~100k in debt with a degree from a TT. She would almost certainly have to place in the top 10% of her class to have even a shot at a decent job. Also, just ethically speaking, it's so unbelievably dishonest for Miami not to disclose FULL, DETAILED employment data from 2010 and 2011. Everyone knows those years are the ones that have hit entry-level associates the worst, and what they are doing is nothing short of sitting on and hiding data.

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bk1
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Re: Georgetown or Miami? A little help, people.

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:18 pm

tennisking88 wrote:She's getting 26k at Miami, for a ~14k per year cost to her. With living expenses it would leave her ~100k in debt with a degree from a TT.


Ah okay I misread the OP. 100k to go to Miami is still mediocre in my mind. Granted it might be worth it rather than the 200-250k it would cost at GULC. I still think Miami isn't cheap enough, but at 100k it's a lot closer than I thought at first.




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