UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market Forum

[UCLAtransfer]

You started off by saying that the city of Phoenix was backwater, based on it having a small number of big law firms.

You are incorrect. I did NOT say the city of Phoenix was backwater. I stated:

This problem comes up when people apply NYC rules to backwater markets like Phoenix.

Pwned.

Totally.

This is when you could tell it was really all over:

All this stuff about "legal markets" is irrelevant. It's like people on here don't have lives outside of law firm rankings, TLS, and big law. Who defines a city by it's legal business?

[showNprove]

Median at UVA is basically too low for Snell & Wilmer, Lewis & Roca, and Fennemore Craig. Those three firms hire half of the market paying SA positions in Phoenix. UVA median would have their best shot at FC of those three, but it isn't a very good shot. Various V100 satellite offices might be game, but they only hire 1-2 people each (and sometimes none).

I am aware of someone at UVA noticeably below median who got an offer with one of those three large Phoenix firms.

Yeah the above posters are right on target. Secondary markets are extremely selective due to the lack of spots. T14 students do not clean up the way that you think that they would; T14s generally get big law in NYC, DC, IL, and CA. Outside of those markets, things become more dicey.

This has not been my experience. I did very well in some secondary markets with which I had no connection, and I do not have outstanding grades.

[Veyron]

The local firms like to hire national talent when they can but are still picky about grades. Median at UVA gets you a shot at the good local firms as does top 15% at UofA. The V100s in PHX are generally considered to be not as good as the local firms.

/thread.

[chasgoose]

If you have strong AZ ties a t14 school with good grades is much better than UA/ASU with great grades. Achieving great grades at any law school is no easy task. t14 will give you great options in AZ with good grades, and some options elsewhere if AZ falls through. If you have good, not great, grades at UA/ASU you will likely be unemployed in AZ and beyond.

What constitutes strong AZ ties? I grew up there but left for college, 3 years after college, and now law school. Are there things that make for better ties to PHX than others?

[Glock]

If you have strong AZ ties a t14 school with good grades is much better than UA/ASU with great grades. Achieving great grades at any law school is no easy task. t14 will give you great options in AZ with good grades, and some options elsewhere if AZ falls through. If you have good, not great, grades at UA/ASU you will likely be unemployed in AZ and beyond.

What constitutes strong AZ ties? I grew up there but left for college, 3 years after college, and now law school. Are there things that make for better ties to PHX than others?

Those are pretty good. You'll need to convince them that you want to stay. College and law school away isn't bad, but someone who is native that went to AZ undergrad will have a slightly better case.

[Veyron]

If you have strong AZ ties a t14 school with good grades is much better than UA/ASU with great grades. Achieving great grades at any law school is no easy task. t14 will give you great options in AZ with good grades, and some options elsewhere if AZ falls through. If you have good, not great, grades at UA/ASU you will likely be unemployed in AZ and beyond.

What constitutes strong AZ ties? I grew up there but left for college, 3 years after college, and now law school. Are there things that make for better ties to PHX than others?

You're fine as long as you can explain why you stayed away for 3 years after college and wouldn't go back to wherever you were.

[desertlaw]

I was in the same boat as OP and ended up at UVa. It's going to open up more options to you, both in Phoenix and in NYC/DC/LA if you get that itch. Further, if you end up between median and top-third at UVa, you could hopefully end up in NYC, and then transfer that to Phoenix after a few years. At ASU, you need top 10% for the Phoenix market. End up in top 1/4 at UVa and you'll have great offers in Phoenix.

Feel free to PM me for any specific UVa questions.

Also - in terms of just enjoying law school, it's hard to beat UVa. I imagine ASU is insanely competitive atmosphere because you need top 10% grades and everyone is competing for jobs in Phoenix; UVa is anything but intense atmosphere. Especially if you've lived in Phoenix all your life, this is a chance to live in a great college town, experience actual seasons instead of just Hot and Less Hot, experience a southern culture, and also: Feb Club.

[Veyron]

I was in the same boat as OP and ended up at UVa. It's going to open up more options to you, both in Phoenix and in NYC/DC/LA if you get that itch. Further, if you end up between median and top-third at UVa, you could hopefully end up in NYC, and then transfer that to Phoenix after a few years. At ASU, you need top 10% for the Phoenix market. End up in top 1/4 at UVa and you'll have great offers in Phoenix.

Feel free to PM me for any specific UVa questions.

Also - in terms of just enjoying law school, it's hard to beat UVa. I imagine ASU is insanely competitive atmosphere because you need top 10% grades and everyone is competing for jobs in Phoenix; UVa is anything but intense atmosphere. Especially if you've lived in Phoenix all your life, this is a chance to live in a great college town, experience actual seasons instead of just Hot and Less Hot, experience a southern culture, and also: Feb Club.

Please say you're a 0L. You don't go to NYC or DC with an eye towards lateraling to phoenix. Experience at primary market V100s is much less substantive than the work you would be doing in Phoenix as a new associate and local firms know it. Laterals happen but are rare. LA is a slightly different story but still uncommon.

[desertlaw]

I'll agree with you on corporate work, but if you end up doing litigation at a place like Quinn or Kasowitz or W&C or any other good litigation place in NYC/DC, those skills are going to help you lateral back to Phoenix. Maybe it's not like the boom times where they're dying to take you, but you can still do it.

And I've known corporate associates who have done NYC biglaw and then Phoenix and I've asked them specifically about the skill-set issue and they said it wasn't a problem and they'd do the BigLaw experience over again because of the skills they picked up.

[Veyron]

I'll agree with you on corporate work, but if you end up doing litigation at a place like Quinn or Kasowitz or W&C or any other good litigation place in NYC/DC, those skills are going to help you lateral back to Phoenix. Maybe it's not like the boom times where they're dying to take you, but you can still do it.

And I've known corporate associates who have done NYC biglaw and then Phoenix and I've asked them specifically about the skill-set issue and they said it wasn't a problem and they'd do the BigLaw experience over again because of the skills they picked up.

Yes, AZ firms are going to be dying for your three years of doc review experience as a "trial lawyer" at QUINNREMAINS when searching for a mid-level associate who can write motions, argue motions, and take depos.

You might be right about the corporate side because juniors get less substantive experience there generally, its not really my field so I wouldn't know. That being said, Phoenix practice heavily tilts towards litigation.

[desertlaw]

Oceans rise, something else, Quinn Remains?

Why would California be any different than NYC/DC then for lateraling to Phoenix? Or is that just more speculation?

[Veyron]

Oceans rise, cities fall, Quinn Remains?

Why would California be any different than NYC/DC then for lateraling to Phoenix? Or is that just more speculation?

Because California offices tend to be smaller (yes, DC offices can also be small but, for obvious reasons, many DC associates do work that isn't particularly relevant to Arizona). Also, much like NY/NJ lots of people take the CA and AZ bars together right out of law school which lowers barriers to entry if you want to lateral as a fairly junior guy (before you can waive in). Also, you can't ignore the fact that there is a lot more similarity between the types of work that California and AZ firms do (lit heavy, water law, etc.) and that CA and AZ just have a lot more interconnection in general.

Hell, if you wanted to lateral from new york, half the firms would think you were just getting fired and couldn't find another NY job.

Edit: I guess the better point would be, why the hell would you go to another market if you wanted to practice in Phoenix. Best case scenario, you're just as well off as if you had just gotten a job in Phoenix in the first place except you lack the knowledge of local practice and the local connections you would have built as a junior.

[desertlaw]

Good points, but it should all go back to OP's question and that's why UVa would be a better choice. If you want to get into the Phoenix market, you could go to ASU and have to do top 10%. Or you could go to UVa and do top quarterish.

If you end up not doing that well at ASU, your entry to Phoenix BigLaw is damn near impossible, right? But if you end up not doing that well at UVa, you can still get to NYC (assuming you are just above median, can interview well, etc). That will eventually be better to get you into the Phoenix market than leaving ASU with no job, right?

I'm not saying that Skadden to Snell (or Fried Frank to Fennemore OR Paul Weiss to Perkins Coie if that is your fancy) is the best way to get to Snell/Fennemore/Perkins, but I'm saying it's probably more possible than at ASU without a job.

[Veyron]

Good points, but it should all go back to OP's question and that's why UVa would be a better choice. If you want to get into the Phoenix market, you could go to ASU and have to do top 10%. Or you could go to UVa and do top quarterish.

If you end up not doing that well at ASU, your entry to Phoenix BigLaw is damn near impossible, right? But if you end up not doing that well at UVa, you can still get to NYC (assuming you are just above median, can interview well, etc). That will eventually be better to get you into the Phoenix market than leaving ASU with no job, right?

I'm not saying that Skadden to Snell (or Fried Frank to Fennemore OR Paul Weiss to Perkins Coie if that is your fancy) is the best way to get to Snell/Fennemore/Perkins, but I'm saying it's probably more possible than at ASU without a job.

Well that's a reasonable point. However, if you can get into UVA you can probably do ASU for free or nearly free - in which case you can make just as much as a guy at Snell paying off 220k in debt even if you land a job that pays much less. I'm on the fence about whether I should have done this myself.

Remember:

115 - 30k (loans) = 85 - 37k (state and federal taxes on 115) = 57k

[desertlaw]

Good points, but it should all go back to OP's question and that's why UVa would be a better choice. If you want to get into the Phoenix market, you could go to ASU and have to do top 10%. Or you could go to UVa and do top quarterish.

If you end up not doing that well at ASU, your entry to Phoenix BigLaw is damn near impossible, right? But if you end up not doing that well at UVa, you can still get to NYC (assuming you are just above median, can interview well, etc). That will eventually be better to get you into the Phoenix market than leaving ASU with no job, right?

I'm not saying that Skadden to Snell (or Fried Frank to Fennemore OR Paul Weiss to Perkins Coie if that is your fancy) is the best way to get to Snell/Fennemore/Perkins, but I'm saying it's probably more possible than at ASU without a job.

Well that's a reasonable point. However, if you can get into UVA you can probably do ASU for free or nearly free - in which case you can make just as much as a guy at Snell paying off 220k in debt even if you land a job that pays much less. I'm on the fence about whether I should have done this myself.

Remember:

115 - 30k (loans) = 85 - 37k (state and federal taxes on 115) = 57k

Doesn't that assume that midlaw is available in Phoenix? I suppose you can go to ASU for free if you know you only want Phoenix BigLaw, but that puts a lot of pressure on you to perform extremely well at ASU. But maybe it'd be easier for this person to do top 10% at ASU than top 1/4 at UVa? Maybe, maybe not.

I suppose if you don't do well at ASU, you can just drop out and start another career without debt. Or just continue all 3 years and not take on any debt. At UVa, you'd have serious debt. But even then, it'd only be a year of debt if you drop out after 1L grades aren't so good. So instead of being 3 years worth of risk, UVa is only 1 year of risk because you can get out of 2L and 3L if your 1L grades aren't good enough for Snell/Fennemore/Perkins/et al.

Is this like a situation in poker when they say it's a coin-flip? One player has pocket 4's, the other has A-K.

[Veyron]

Good points, but it should all go back to OP's question and that's why UVa would be a better choice. If you want to get into the Phoenix market, you could go to ASU and have to do top 10%. Or you could go to UVa and do top quarterish.

If you end up not doing that well at ASU, your entry to Phoenix BigLaw is damn near impossible, right? But if you end up not doing that well at UVa, you can still get to NYC (assuming you are just above median, can interview well, etc). That will eventually be better to get you into the Phoenix market than leaving ASU with no job, right?

I'm not saying that Skadden to Snell (or Fried Frank to Fennemore OR Paul Weiss to Perkins Coie if that is your fancy) is the best way to get to Snell/Fennemore/Perkins, but I'm saying it's probably more possible than at ASU without a job.

Well that's a reasonable point. However, if you can get into UVA you can probably do ASU for free or nearly free - in which case you can make just as much as a guy at Snell paying off 220k in debt even if you land a job that pays much less. I'm on the fence about whether I should have done this myself.

Remember:

115 - 30k (loans) = 85 - 37k (state and federal taxes on 115) = 57k

Doesn't that assume that midlaw is available in Phoenix? I suppose you can go to ASU for free if you know you only want Phoenix BigLaw, but that puts a lot of pressure on you to perform extremely well at ASU. But maybe it'd be easier for this person to do top 10% at ASU than top 1/4 at UVa? Maybe, maybe not.

I suppose if you don't do well at ASU, you can just drop out and start another career without debt. Or just continue all 3 years and not take on any debt. At UVa, you'd have serious debt. But even then, it'd only be a year of debt if you drop out after 1L grades aren't so good. So instead of being 3 years worth of risk, UVa is only 1 year of risk because you can get out of 2L and 3L if your 1L grades aren't good enough for Snell/Fennemore/Perkins/et al.

Is this like a situation in poker when they say it's a coin-flip? One player has pocket 4's, the other has A-K.

Midlaw pays more in Phoenix. 65-105. I'm also not sure its any easier to get than the big 3 or V100 sats. But AGs office, city attorney, county attorney, and some small law all pay in the fifties and arguably demand fewer hours (you still have to pay tax on it, but still). Of course, the government jobs are hard to get but isn't that the story of our times.

[desertlaw]

I'd like to hear about 2L's or 3L's at ASU/UA that will be making $50-80k next summer/after graduation, working as an attorney. I'm not sure those positions exist, but it'd be great if they did.

[Veyron]

I'd like to hear about 2L's or 3L's at ASU/UA that will be making $50-80k next summer/after graduation, working as an attorney. I'm not sure those positions exist, but it'd be great if they did.

IDK man, I'm sure theres a few going to one or more of Jones Skelton & Hochuli , Gust Rosenfeld, Mariscal Weeks, Tiffany and Bosco, Bowman and Brooke, Clark Hilll, Ryley Carlock & Applewhite, Jennings Strouss & Salmon, etc. Just a hunch, could be wrong .

Edit: Most of these firms pay above 80k

[desertlaw]

Well that's awesome if it's true and I'm happy for those ASU students. Where in the class are they? Are they the ones in top 10% that struck out at Snell or are they at median to top third?

Is OP still around and is anyone benefitting from this discussion?

[Veyron]

Well that's awesome if it's true and I'm happy for those ASU students. Where in the class are they? Are they the ones in top 10% that struck out at Snell or are they at median to top third?

Is OP still around and is anyone benefitting from this discussion?

These students tend to be cum laude or higher (top 25% at ASU). Occasionally you find a top 1/3 person who isn't quite cum laude. Some are top 10% law review, etc. These guys didn't always strike out, for certain practice areas various midlaw firms are better than some of the big boys. There are also some midlaw firms where the earning potential after the first few years of practice is much higher than at the big three and some where hours and/or partnership prospects are much better. Just depends on what an individual is looking for. If you want deets, go browse some bios bro, its not like firms keep the resumes of the people they hire secret and there are enough recent (ITE) grads where you should be able to get a good idea of whats up.

[sundevil77]

Well that's awesome if it's true and I'm happy for those ASU students. Where in the class are they? Are they the ones in top 10% that struck out at Snell or are they at median to top third?

Is OP still around and is anyone benefitting from this discussion?

These students tend to be cum laude or higher (top 25% at ASU). Occasionally you find a top 1/3 person who isn't quite cum laude. Some are top 10% law review, etc. These guys didn't always strike out, for certain practice areas various midlaw firms are better than some of the big boys. There are also some midlaw firms where the earning potential after the first few years of practice is much higher than at the big three and some where hours and/or partnership prospects are much better. Just depends on what an individual is looking for. If you want deets, go browse some bios bro, its not like firms keep the resumes of the people they hire secret and there are enough recent (ITE) grads where you should be able to get a good idea of whats up.

Just thought I'd chime in. I passed up the T14s for ASU/UA on a full-ride. I got the job I wanted at the lowest cost possible. Couldn't have worked out better. That said, we all know it's a huge gamble. Hiring at ASU/UA is rough, and you really have to be in or near the top 10% to get a market-paying gig -- though there are rare exceptions.

[sundevil77]

-

[Tiago Splitter]

is anyone benefitting from this discussion?

*raises hand*

[desertlaw]

I'd be willing to say that if you know WITHOUT A DOUBT that you want to practice in Phoenix, and you have >75% scholarship to ASU/UA, then I'd be willing to say it might be better than choosing MVP. (HYS, different story probably?)

But your options in Phoenix will be just as good coming from UVa, even with "midlaw," and you won't be needing to score in the top 10% of the class. But we've already said all this.

Is there anything else to say? I would say that if you're unsure about where you're wanting to practice or want to consider NYC, UVa would be worth looking into. That was my case and it worked out well. I wasn't sure if I wanted to be back in Phoenix after law school, so that's the position I was in.

As mentioned above, I wouldn't equate T14 with this Virginia discussion. This whole discussion might be different if you're considering HYS. But maybe that's such a no-brainer that we don't need to go into that.

[hangtransferloose]

FWIW I know three people that transferred out of UA/ASU to t14 in order to improve their chances of obtaining a job in PHX (and beyond if need be). In fact, several lawyers they spoke with that work at larger firms in AZ suggested as much.

I guess what I'm saying is going to UA/ASU at a discount and then transferring is a possibility. Risky indeed, but, if you do well you'll have the best of both worlds.