For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

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monarchylover
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For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:42 pm

1. Outside of Chicago, Cornell, Columbia and Penn 50% or more likely do not get NLJ250. I understand the T6 puts a small portion and T14 an even smaller portion into into AIII clerkships and top public sector spots.. For those 30-60% what do they do?

2. I also see lots of Insurance defense shops on martindale that are not listed on NLJ250 who have 2009-2010 JD class associates around how much do they make?

3. Why is it not a viable option for those who do not make big law to select the IBR repayment option and start in midlaw/shitlaw?

4. If you really want to be a trial attorney will you really ever get to do any courtroom work in big law?

5. Are some regions more likely to have big law associates actually working in the courtroom?

lawyerwannabe
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:11 pm

1. Clerkships are not just down the row percentage-wise (e.g. as you move down the rankings percentages get smaller and smaller). Non-HYS T13 seem to place between about 8% - 12% into A3 Clerkships (and, gasp, that high-end of 12% actually belongs to Duke and not Columbia!).

In regards to your NLJ250 stats, Cornell way out performed their norm and those specific stats came from the worst ITE year where everything was far from certain.

I would venture to say that, if the economy were to remain somewhat stable, non-HYS T13 schools place 65% - 70% get jobs as A3 clerks, some other type of clerk, selective PI, or some sort of firm job (NALP listing). So, it is more like what do the 30% - 35% do? And the answer is whatever they can find.

2. I do not know.

3. Everyone will tell you that midlaw does not exist and most people feel above shitlaw on these forums.

4. Maybe if you go to a litigation firm and prove your worth.

5. No. However, I could say DC because they have mostly all litigation firms, so more associates will actually see the inside of a courtroom.

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monarchylover
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:17 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:1. Clerkships are not just down the row percentage-wise (e.g. as you move down the rankings percentages get smaller and smaller). Non-HYS T13 seem to place between about 8% - 12% into A3 Clerkships (and, gasp, that high-end of 12% actually belongs to Duke and not Columbia!).

In regards to your NLJ250 stats, Cornell way out performed their norm and those specific stats came from the worst ITE year where everything was far from certain.

I would venture to say that, if the economy were to remain somewhat stable, non-HYS T13 schools place 65% - 70% get jobs as A3 clerks, some other type of clerk, selective PI, or some sort of firm job (NALP listing). So, it is more like what do the 30% - 35% do? And the answer is whatever they can find.

2. I do not know.

3. Everyone will tell you that midlaw does not exist and most people feel above shitlaw on these forums.

4. Maybe if you go to a litigation firm and prove your worth.

5. No. However, I could say DC because they have mostly all litigation firms, so more associates will actually see the inside of a courtroom.


So if you are not "above shitlaw" and you are ok with a non NLJ or unlisted in NALP shitlaw firms like
http://www.csklegal.com/
http://legalnews.arnstein.com/tampa-office/
http://www.constangy.com/
http://www.zuckerman.com/tampa/
http://www.stearnsweaver.com/
http://www.wickersmith.com/
http://www.litchfieldcavo.com/1_firm.html
http://www.conroysimberg.com/
http://www.gray-robinson.com/
why not IBR and work your way up?

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Bronx Bum
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby Bronx Bum » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:22 pm

LOL you think you can get one of those jobs easily? Many of those are harder than biglaw in a sick way because they are not willing to hire a freshly minted JD. They are looking for experience. Midlaw is almost impossible to get out of law school. A respectable small firm is almost impossible. Your next option is true shitlaw. Do they have the $ to hire a new jd? Of course not. You either have to know someone or be extremely lucky.

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monarchylover
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:LOL you think you can get one of those jobs easily? Many of those are harder than biglaw in a sick way because they are not willing to hire a freshly minted JD. They are looking for experience. Midlaw is almost impossible to get out of law school. A respectable small firm is almost impossible. Your next option is true shitlaw. Do they have the $ to hire a new jd? Of course not. You either have to know someone or be extremely lucky.


then why do they have 2009 JD associates?

edit: some have 2010

kaiser
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby kaiser » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:27 pm

I don't understand why so many people say midlaw isn't a realistic option. I've interviewed so far with a number of mid-size regional and local firms that most certainly are hiring summers. They pay a bit below market for the state, but it would certainly be a viable option. Sure, the mid-size boutiques might be tough to get into, but that doesn't mean that all mid-size firms are seasoned specialists who don't take on summers and new associates.

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monarchylover
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:29 pm

kaiser wrote:I don't understand why so many people say midlaw isn't a realistic option. I've interviewed so far with a number of mid-size regional and local firms that most certainly are hiring summers. They pay a bit below market for the state, but it would certainly be a viable option. Sure, the mid-size boutiques might be tough to get into, but that doesn't mean that all mid-size firms are seasoned specialists who don't take on summers and new associates.

What region are you in?

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:44 pm

2. I also see lots of Insurance defense shops on martindale that are not listed on NLJ250 who have 2009-2010 JD class associates around how much do they make?


Not much. The "biglaw" equivalent in insurance defense (ID) shitlaw are firms like WEMED:

http://www.wilsonelser.com/

This boiler room pays about 65 K, but nowadays they are mostly looking for a year or two of ID "experience" before they hire. It's a miserable place to work and a revolving door (like most ID shops). Average associate stays about 6 to 14 months. They expect Biglaw type hours for that 65 K and there's no bonus. Expect to spend most of your 12 hour workday cutting n' pasting fender bender motions together and appearing in shitcourt to argue over some clown's neck & back "injuries."

Many people actually used to quit WEMED and just 'lateral" into doc review temp work, but now those jobs are long gone. But a few years ago (early to mid 2000s) you could make 75-95 K doing it with no stress, unlike WEMED which works the piss out of people before they quit and/or committ suicide.

Insurance defense is basically the laughingstock of the legal world, since the work is mindless cut n' paste and the carriers pay absurdly low rates (in fact, many files are now flat-fee arrangements). The carriers are also unreasonable and bascially refuse to settle just about every case, so a lot of your day is spent begging/grovelling with some moron adjuster to get $2500 bucks for some bullshit accident.

If you want a laugh go hang outside the JCP part in King's Supreme (Brooklyn). This is where you get sent out to select juries, and where the insurance defenders make one last, pathetic attempt to get the carriers to cough up $$$ so they don't have to do a trial.

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monarchylover
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:07 pm

areyouinsane wrote:
2. I also see lots of Insurance defense shops on martindale that are not listed on NLJ250 who have 2009-2010 JD class associates around how much do they make?


Not much. The "biglaw" equivalent in insurance defense (ID) shitlaw are firms like WEMED:

http://www.wilsonelser.com/

This boiler room pays about 65 K, but nowadays they are mostly looking for a year or two of ID "experience" before they hire. It's a miserable place to work and a revolving door (like most ID shops). Average associate stays about 6 to 14 months. They expect Biglaw type hours for that 65 K and there's no bonus. Expect to spend most of your 12 hour workday cutting n' pasting fender bender motions together and appearing in shitcourt to argue over some clown's neck & back "injuries."

Many people actually used to quit WEMED and just 'lateral" into doc review temp work, but now those jobs are long gone. But a few years ago (early to mid 2000s) you could make 75-95 K doing it with no stress, unlike WEMED which works the piss out of people before they quit and/or committ suicide.

Insurance defense is basically the laughingstock of the legal world, since the work is mindless cut n' paste and the carriers pay absurdly low rates (in fact, many files are now flat-fee arrangements). The carriers are also unreasonable and bascially refuse to settle just about every case, so a lot of your day is spent begging/grovelling with some moron adjuster to get $2500 bucks for some bullshit accident.

If you want a laugh go hang outside the JCP part in King's Supreme (Brooklyn). This is where you get sent out to select juries, and where the insurance defenders make one last, pathetic attempt to get the carriers to cough up $$$ so they don't have to do a trial.


good to know... I've worked in sales so everything you just said about ID really does not sound that bad. I don't mind being the laughing stock... I really just want to product liability/wrongful death on the plaintiff side but I have found that most of the time great plaintiff trial lawyers start in ID defense firms. Like I want to be an "ambulance chaser."

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:43 pm

good to know... I've worked in sales so everything you just said about ID really does not sound that bad. I don't mind being the laughing stock... I really just want to product liability/wrongful death on the plaintiff side but I have found that most of the time great plaintiff trial lawyers start in ID defense firms. Like I want to be an "ambulance chaser."


The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:42 pm

areyouinsane wrote: The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

This is incredibly frightening and sad. ):

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby lawgod » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:46 pm

areyouinsane wrote:
good to know... I've worked in sales so everything you just said about ID really does not sound that bad. I don't mind being the laughing stock... I really just want to product liability/wrongful death on the plaintiff side but I have found that most of the time great plaintiff trial lawyers start in ID defense firms. Like I want to be an "ambulance chaser."


The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.


Absent the student debt aspect, 70-80k is a respectable amount of money to make mid career. It is. You people are really spoiled.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:53 pm

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Lawquacious
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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:53 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
areyouinsane wrote: The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

This is incredibly frightening and sad. ):



I would take what this poster says with a grain of salt. Not to say that the legal market isn't horrifying and total crap right now, but IIRC this poster is quite the tale-teller and has been banned before for nonsense and end-of-world posts. My apologies to areyouinsane if I have you confused with someone else.

And also FYI, BrooklynBum is a certified troll.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:15 pm

I would take what this poster says with a grain of salt. Not to say that the legal market isn't horrifying and total crap right now, but IIRC this poster is quite the tale-teller and has been banned before for nonsense and end-of-world posts.



Anyone who doubts what I write and lives in the NYC area just needs to take a quick trip to King's Supreme, Status Conference and JCP Parts (both on the first floor, status to the right and JCP to the left near the newsstand). Or Room 707 in Bronx Supreme (get off the Yankee Stadium stop and walk up the hill). I really believe a day or two seeing this shit firsthand would deter 75% or more starry-eyed 0 L's.

And no, 70 or 80 K isn't a respectable salary for a professional with 7 yrs of education and 20+ years in the business. It's really a downright embarrassment. Believe it or not, a lot of these guys do menial work like mowing lawns on the weekend to make ends meet. Hell, property taxes on even a small 2 BR condo in NJ will run you 10 K a year. Deduct gas, tolls, food, car insurance, etc. and these "lawyers" are the working poor. Hell, I was still waiting tables on weekends when I was working at the shitlaw personal injury firm, as were most of my co-workers. Almost everyone in shitlaw needs some supplemental income to scrape by.

And I wasn't banned for "nonsense," I was banned for pointing out in a Rutgers-Newark thread how dangerous, filthy, and epidemic crime is in the R-N area. I worked a document review job in Newark for almost 6 months and a co-worker was carjacked and pistol-whipped one night by a 14 year old. The entire city is literally an open sewer, with bums and crackheads urinating everywhere in broad daylight. We even walked around the corner on Beaver Street one day on way to lunch and a homeless dood was dropping a deuce right on the sidewalk like a dog. He said "sorry fellas" when he saw us.

Lately people have even gotten shot right outside the spiffy new Prudential Center. But the R-N kids didn't want to hear it- hell, they are going to law school to "help" these people LOL!

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby lawgod » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:21 pm

areyouinsane wrote:
And no, 70 or 80 K isn't a respectable salary for a professional with 7 yrs of education and 20+ years in the business. It's really a downright embarrassment. Believe it or not, a lot of these guys do menial work like mowing lawns on the weekend to make ends meet. Hell, property taxes on even a small 2 BR condo in NJ will run you 10 K a year. Deduct gas, tolls, food, car insurance, etc. and these "lawyers" are the working poor. Hell, I was still waiting tables on weekends when I was working at the shitlaw personal injury firm, as were most of my co-workers. Almost everyone in shitlaw needs some supplemental income to scrape by.


Ok, you are saying you expect more with that education. Maybe. But 80k still puts you way above the median income in this country. That is not the working poor.
Assume both spouses are working, and spouse makes 40k, that is 120k. You can live in the suburbs, own a house, and eat at applebees. And vacation on the Jersey shore.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:25 pm

lawgod wrote:
Absent the student debt aspect,
70-80k is a respectable amount of money to make mid career. It is. You people are really spoiled.


This is potentially a very big aspect to ignore. 70-80 is a respectable amount of money to make if you're not horribly in the hole. "Absent the 200K debt I left law school with, plus accumulating interest every year"...not so much.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:43 pm

Edit: misunderstood.

Also Zuckerman doesn't hire new grads
Last edited by Grizz on Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby lawgod » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:45 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
lawgod wrote:
Absent the student debt aspect,
70-80k is a respectable amount of money to make mid career. It is. You people are really spoiled.


This is potentially a very big aspect to ignore. 70-80 is a respectable amount of money to make if you're not horribly in the hole. "Absent the 200K debt I left law school with, plus accumulating interest every year"...not so much.


I agree. If I graduate and make 80k I will be sad. But after 10 years and all paid off I'll be ok.

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby delusional » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:50 pm

areyouinsane wrote:
I would take what this poster says with a grain of salt. Not to say that the legal market isn't horrifying and total crap right now, but IIRC this poster is quite the tale-teller and has been banned before for nonsense and end-of-world posts.

Hell, property taxes on even a small 2 BR condo in NJ will run you 10 K a year. Deduct gas, tolls, food, car insurance, etc. and these "lawyers" are the working poor.


Look, a lot of what you say rings true, but a lot of it is also in how you look at it, and also where you choose to exaggerate. I own a condo in NJ, and I pay about $4000 a year in property tax. It's defensible to call someone making 80K working poor, but that's not just in law - and what other careers guarantee more?

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Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:52 pm

I'm so glad areyouinsane is back to epic posting again.

Thanks, areyouinsane.

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Bronx Bum
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Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:02 pm

Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby Bronx Bum » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:56 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
areyouinsane wrote: The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

This is incredibly frightening and sad. ):



I would take what this poster says with a grain of salt. Not to say that the legal market isn't horrifying and total crap right now, but IIRC this poster is quite the tale-teller and has been banned before for nonsense and end-of-world posts. My apologies to areyouinsane if I have you confused with someone else.

And also FYI, BrooklynBum is a certified troll.


And who the fuck are you? Some TTT bound 0L?

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dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby dr123 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:01 pm

BackToTheOldHouse wrote:I'm so glad areyouinsane is back to epic posting again.

Thanks, areyouinsane.


+1

areyouinsane
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby areyouinsane » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:04 pm

Ok, you are saying you expect more with that education. Maybe. But 80k still puts you way above the median income in this country.


But it's a hard 80 K. Grinding your way thru traffic to shitcourt every morning, bickering over garbage cases, then back to the office for hours of cut n' paste.

Another thing about ID shitlaw is the lack of perks. No travel, no company car, usually crappy health plan, no chance for advancement, boring rote work, etc. Not to mention being laughed at by neighbors/family for being a lawyer and a "poor." Another funny thing is how often the middle-age lawyers say things like "if my kid even THINKS about law school I'll disown him" and "I'd give anything to get outta this shit forever."

What you don't understand about shitlaw is what a miserable "grind of a job it is. At least at big corporations and such there may be different things going on: new products, travel to a convention/conference, lunch meetings, chance to break into mgmt, etc.

In shitlaw every day is the fucking same, a prison-like grind. Wake up, drag yourself to shitcourt, get yelled at/berated by court personnel, bicker over a few fender benders, have some lunch, then sit at a computer until 7 pm cutting & pasting the next day's stack of garbage motions and nonsense dicovery demands together. The dead-end nature of it all is why alcolohism and drug abuse are so endemic in this industry. Every aspect of your workday is both miserable and predictable.

Bottom line is that almost everyone in the legal industry hates their job. The one and ONLY thing that allows the Biglaw types to tolerate it is the money. When you take away the $$$, there is literally nothing to recommend this industry.

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monarchylover
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Re: For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:09 pm

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...

Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?




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