NYTimes Article About Law School Scholarships Forum

[BeenDidThat]

just curious, if you section stack, couldn't you argue that it violates good faith?
You make it impossible that everyone can perform and keep their scholarship.

You could argue it, but you would get laughed out of court.

[neonx]

I love that the dean's name at GGU is Drucilla. Wasn't that one of the evil stepsister's names in Cinderella?

By far, the most hilarious and thoughtful post on TLS in a long time.

[deltasigbn]

.

[Hannibal]

That should be fine. That's well below median.

[MidlawMyth]

Question about this?

I was offered a full scholarship at a T2 school with the only stipulation being I have to remain "in good academic standing". I asked for clarification and good academic standing is a 2.1 or better. The curve is 3.30 median and 2.95-3.05 for the average. Do you think it's unwise to attend this school based on the stipulation?

My plan is to graduate with little to no debt and biglaw isn't what I'm interested in.

Well, you can't graduate if you aren't in good academic standing so losing your scholarship would be the least of your problems.

[Rurik]

Question about this?

I was offered a full scholarship at a T2 school with the only stipulation being I have to remain "in good academic standing". I asked for clarification and good academic standing is a 2.1 or better. The curve is 3.30 median and 2.95-3.05 for the average. Do you think it's unwise to attend this school based on the stipulation?

My plan is to graduate with little to no debt and biglaw isn't what I'm interested in.

I think as long as you show up for the exams, you should have no problem hitting a 2.1.

[JamMasterJ]

That might be bottom 10%. Many "no stip" scholarships have good academic standing conditionality

[handlesthetruth]

it's not that it's harder. it's that it will be guaranteed that a % of their merit scholarship will be gone.

This. Jesus people it's not complicated

ITT people don't understand probability and statistics. If there is negligible difference in student quality, then 2/3 of them are very likely to lose it anyway.

ITT people don't look at the important words or, ahem, word that makes a statement legitimate when in its absence it might not be. Unfortunate for someone looking to be a lawyer.

Spreading them among the different classes provides no such guarantee.

Also, assuming neglible difference in student quality amongst the merit-aid recipients and non-merit-aid recipients might be a big assumption to make..

[Lem37]

This article baffled me, but maybe because when I was applying to law schools, I viewed conditional merit scholarships as an invitation and incentive to compete rather than as a reward for merely applying. If a school offers you a conditional amount of money (let's say $50K) and you're still willing to spend >$100K on a legal education, then it behooves you to do your due diligence and figure out the grading curve before you jump into the fray. The devil may be in the details, but we're talking about becoming lawyers here - our career revolves around details. If you're not willing to do the research before investing one hundred thousand dollars in a terrible legal market, then maybe this is the wrong profession for you.

EDIT: This is all barring the practice of "sections stacking," which is obviously terrible in theory but which I haven't actually encountered in practice.

[Grizz]

This article baffled me, but maybe because when I was applying to law schools, I viewed conditional merit scholarships as an invitation and incentive to compete rather than as a reward for merely applying. If a school offers you a conditional amount of money (let's say $50K) and you're still willing to spend >$100K on a legal education, then it behooves you to do your due diligence and figure out the grading curve before you jump into the fray. The devil may be in the details, but we're talking about becoming lawyers here - our career revolves around details. If you're not willing to do the research before investing one hundred thousand dollars in a terrible legal market, then maybe this is the wrong profession for you.

EDIT: This is all barring the practice of "sections stacking," which is obviously terrible in theory but which I haven't actually encountered in practice.

Section stacking may be a rumor (although one with some support from people's stories around here), but giving more scholarships than are able to be retained DEFINITELY happens.

[Lem37]

This article baffled me, but maybe because when I was applying to law schools, I viewed conditional merit scholarships as an invitation and incentive to compete rather than as a reward for merely applying. If a school offers you a conditional amount of money (let's say $50K) and you're still willing to spend >$100K on a legal education, then it behooves you to do your due diligence and figure out the grading curve before you jump into the fray. The devil may be in the details, but we're talking about becoming lawyers here - our career revolves around details. If you're not willing to do the research before investing one hundred thousand dollars in a terrible legal market, then maybe this is the wrong profession for you.

EDIT: This is all barring the practice of "sections stacking," which is obviously terrible in theory but which I haven't actually encountered in practice.

Section stacking may be a rumor (although one with some support from people's stories around here), but giving more scholarships than are able to be retained DEFINITELY happens.

And I'm saying that such a practice is fine. See: "invitation and incentive to compete rather than reward for merely applying." As long as the playing field is fair (i.e. no section stacking), I don't see the problem.

[Lwoods]

Question about this?

I was offered a full scholarship at a T2 school with the only stipulation being I have to remain "in good academic standing". I asked for clarification and good academic standing is a 2.1 or better. The curve is 3.30 median and 2.95-3.05 for the average. Do you think it's unwise to attend this school based on the stipulation?

My plan is to graduate with little to no debt and biglaw isn't what I'm interested in.

You're probably fine. Can you find a full breakout of the curve?

For example, OSU's good standing GPA is 2.0. The curve is:

* A's - 30 percent
* B's - 60 percent
* C's - 10 percent
* D's and E's - Not more than 4 percent with the direction that a D or E should be given only when inferior performance is clearly demonstrated

So, the curve allows for all students to remain in good standing, though up to 14% (if all C's are C-'s) could fall below. Some schools (such as Whittier) have their curves set up such that a good portion of the class must fall below the good standing GPA. I doubt any T2 is set up that way.

Whittier requires a 77 to remain in good standing. Like OSU's 2.0, this is a C average requirement. However, this is their 1L distribution for Whittier:

A' s 0 - 10%
B' s 15 - 25%
Cumulative A’s and B' s 15 - 30%
C' s 35 - 65%
D' s 20 - 35%
F' s 0 - 10%
Cumulative D' s and F' s 20 - 35%

At least 20% of Whittier 1Ls must be on poor standing after 1L year, and up to 85% (if all C's are C-'s) could fall below. The funny thing is, they have this posted in a pdf on their website. Of course, it's a 24 page pdf, so you have to know what you're looking for.

[gwuorbust]

^ very good post

[sbalive]

Whittier example

Many -- possibly even most -- law schools used to assume a pretty high level of post-1L attrition, and this what are now T1 and T2 state schools. So, it's not actually all that shady for a lower-ranked law school to build in a 20% not-in-good-standing rate. In fact, we'd all probably be better off if there was more attrition. What's astonishing is that the rate of attrition after scholarship loss is so low, given that it's a double-whammy of having to pay full tuition for almost certain terrible job prospects.

[bahari2010]

hile I was at GGU (2007-10) I don't believe the school engaged in "section stacking", quite to the contrary -- the scholarships seemed fairly spread across all three 1L sections. I recieved a roughly half scholarship for first year (with only 2k for each succeeding year -- so I wasn't crushed when I didn't make 3.0 at the end of 1L. The information is out there, on GGU's web site so I don't think it's a bait-and-switch.

P.S. While GGU Dean Dru Ramey might be extremely short, she's very dynamic and I think the school in the next few years will have a better reputation at least partly due to her efforts.

[scammedhard]

hile I was at GGU (2007-10) I don't believe the school engaged in "section stacking", quite to the contrary -- the scholarships seemed fairly spread across all three 1L sections. I recieved a roughly half scholarship for first year (with only 2k for each succeeding year -- so I wasn't crushed when I didn't make 3.0 at the end of 1L. The information is out there, on GGU's web site so I don't think it's a bait-and-switch.

P.S. While GGU Dean Dru Ramey might be extremely short, she's very dynamic and I think the school in the next few years will have a better reputation at least partly due to her efforts.

Are you employed? Doing what?

[joemoviebuff]

I love that the dean's name at GGU is Drucilla. Wasn't that one of the evil stepsister's names in Cinderella?

By far, the most hilarious and thoughtful post on TLS in a long time.

hile I was at GGU (2007-10) I don't believe the school engaged in "section stacking", quite to the contrary -- the scholarships seemed fairly spread across all three 1L sections. I recieved a roughly half scholarship for first year (with only 2k for each succeeding year -- so I wasn't crushed when I didn't make 3.0 at the end of 1L. The information is out there, on GGU's web site so I don't think it's a bait-and-switch.

P.S. While GGU Dean Dru Ramey might be extremely short, she's very dynamic and I think the school in the next few years will have a better reputation at least partly due to her efforts.

Do you regret attending GGU? Would you go again if you could go back?

[AssociateX]

Why am I not surprised that, according to the article, schools' fixation on the US News ranking is really behind this scam? ...

When is a group of attorneys going to grow some balls and start suing the ABA, USNWR and the law schools for misleading the public and students?

This actually was already done, in the late 1990s a Bklyn Law grad named Todd (don't recall last name), sued the administration for misleading career statistics and deceptive admissions practices..his suit was mostly expressing anger that the brochure claimed 99% of the class got jobs paying at least 85K. In reality, the real median and mean salaries of the graduates were much, much lower.

The suit was dismissed on summary judgment. In reality, very few lawyers would sue law schools for deceptive practices- the only semi successful suit wa the recent class action suits against BarBri for anti trust and bar exam course fees that charged students more fees than what the courses actually delivered (I received 3 settlement checks since I was part if that class). Most lawyers would not feel comfortable suing the law schools because of fear of negative publicity, etc. It's kinda sad.

[bahari2010]

Are you employed? Doing what?

Yes, I am. I work in Administrative Law (Workers Comp/Social Security appeals.) It's really reqwarding work in that I spend lots of time with clients, and can make a real difference in their quality of life.

[bahari2010]

[quote="joemoviebuff] Do you regret attending GGU? Would you go again if you could go back?[/quote]

At GGU I found a place where I learned from some fascinating professors, and made great friends (the location in SoMA is great too:) I never felt like a number there, like I did in undergrad, and the profs were very accessible. So, no I don't have any regrets about attending GGU.

Yes, I would go again, I just have a fondness for the professors and the experiences I had and the friends I made. I got my job the same way everyone who doesn't go to HLS does -- through networking; so I think that my job search might have been about the same at any law school I was accepted to.

In short, I'm proud to have gone there.

[scammedhard]

In short, I'm proud to have gone there.

Good for you. A few more questions, if you don't mind:

How much debt did you have debt at graduation?

When did you get your first job (as in months after graduation)?

What was the starting salary?

Of your classmates, how are they doing? Is you story representative of your class?

Best luck, and thank you very much.

[Law Sauce]

I was actually contacted on LSN to be interviewed for this article, but I hadn't logged in in weeks and by the time I e-mail the author it was this last Friday... anyone else get contacted? I'm kind of glad I didn't do it, though, 'cause you never know how you'll come off looking and NY Times stuff stays with you forever.

Yea, he contacted me too and I talked to him on the phone a couple of times. I wasnt really able to help too much because most of my scholarship offers were from schools that did not include a lot of stipulations.

Honestly, Im thankful for the article and the publicity, but the whole thing is a little overblown. I mean education is a risk and an investment, a risky investment if you will. But this should not scare away the kids that are really checking this stuff out, know the risks, and are wrestling with this article (there is no reason to be scared of taking a full ride with good academic standing from a reputable school, and there are even kids who come out of all sorts of schools and it was the right choice for them.) Besides, the kids that arent wrestling with the costs, arent reading the article anyway.

The whole USNews hatred is a bit blown up too. I mean it standardizes which schools are at the top and solidifies the opportunities that the top students going into school are going to have. (top students know very plainly which schools to go to and the top firms know very straightforwardly which schools have the top students) This is the function of rankings in the first place. And students who struggled with the lsat and in ug are at a disadvantage but they also get a shot at making up the difference in law school (although this is an uphill battle, but one that many win). Overall, the system helps the cream rise to the top and this is hard but also in some ways useful.

Also, the competition that usnews causes is helpful for many students who receive scholarships that they would not have gotten if there was not so much competition between schools. The system pits schools against each other and this is in many ways good for students. Is not a student who has their first year paid for in better shape than if they did not (lets say that they did not get into much better schools anyway) (I understand that this puts aside the issue of drawling more people into the legal profession than it can sustain, but this is a supply demand risk that any profession contains). Now the problem may exist in the fact that the benefits that top students reap are paid for through increasing tuition to those who are not considered to be top students. And this can be a positive or a negative, but it is a risk that these students are taking and should (and most do) know that they are taking. It seems that this article in some respects bemoans the fact that our 23 years old have to grow up, act like adults and assume intelligent risk instead of acting like high-schoolers (or many college kids) and irresponsibly assuming that they can do whatever they want. (I understand that many are intentionally misinformed, but I believe that the fact is overblown and is not as prevalent as is may have been preITE. In fact fir many, such as many scam bloggers, the outrage is often more an expression of ITE bitterness than anything else.)

[czelede]

The school’s dean, Drucilla Stender Ramey, declined to say exactly how many students would lose their scholarships this year, suggesting that doing so would violate the privacy rights of the students. She acknowledged, though, that lost merit scholarships have been the source of much campus misery.

“Of course some students are disappointed,” she said. “I thought I’d be 5-foot-10, and I’m 4-11. But if you gave students sodium pentothal,” also known as the truth serum, “they’d say, ‘This is a new and very difficult undertaking, the school will support me as best they can and, hopefully, with hard work and good luck, I’ll be able to retain my scholarship.’”

Drucilla sounds like a wench here.

[jenesaislaw]

More stories on it:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2492669341 (says ABA will weigh in)
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... s_conditi/
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/05/02/are ... olarships/

[gwuorbust]

Also, the competition that usnews causes is helpful for many students who receive scholarships that they would not have gotten if there was not so much competition between schools.

you do realize that this is simply a monetary transfer from those student who pay full tuition to those who don't, right? If *merit* scholarships were eliminated across the board, then everyone would *in theory* pay less.