Atheist at Notre Dame with $$ instead of Minnesota with $$? Forum

[Knock]

Relevant: The Richard Dawkins episode of South Park is on TV right now, it's hilarious.

[quixotical]

How is that not a relevant anecdotal comment?

It wasn't about the law school, it was about ND's undergrad.

Law schools exist in vacuums.

Probably why they attract so much dirt.

[beachbum]

Hey, you guys are not being very tolerant of this asshole.

[splitmuch]

How is that not a relevant anecdotal comment?

It wasn't about the law school, it was about ND's undergrad.

I'm pro choice and pro gay marriage and made it through ND undergrad (much more overly religious than the law school) just fine.

It was edited. I read the original post which didn't include that gem.

This is true, though I'd point out that I started editing right after I posted its not like it was "back-edited" after your objection. Still, you should have realized that implicit point before I made it explicitly.

If you're serious, visit and get in touch with current students.

[quixotical]

Right, but if you accept as a premise that the law school is less overly religous than the undergrad, and that a pro gay marriage and pro choice person can make it through the undergrad just fine, you would conclude that one of similar beliefs could also make it through the law school.

Changing advice to you should work on reading comprehension and logical reasoning skills, retake the LSAT, and try to go to a real (T14) school.

Wow. And I'm the one being accused of arrogance?

Anyway, it DOES matter because, even accepting the premise that the law school is less religious than the undergrad, the fact remains that law schools deal with legal policy issues that come into direct conflict with Catholicism. If you attended ND UG and majored in economics or English or whatever, you're right, you probably could get through just fine.

[HeavenWood]

Can this be moved to the lounge already?

[quixotical]

Hey, you guys are not being very tolerant of this asshole.

Wow, you've contributed exactly nothing to this thread. Not even witty comments. If you're going to be snarky, at least make it amusing for others.

Also, are you some born-again nut who speaks in tongues? Why are you so offended by my atheism? Seriously, it's not hurting you. No one is forcing you to "tolerate" this thread.

[splitmuch]

Right, but if you accept as a premise that the law school is less overly religous than the undergrad, and that a pro gay marriage and pro choice person can make it through the undergrad just fine, you would conclude that one of similar beliefs could also make it through the law school.

Changing advice to you should work on reading comprehension and logical reasoning skills, retake the LSAT, and try to go to a real (T14) school.

Wow. And I'm the one being accused of arrogance?

Anyway, it DOES matter because, even accepting the premise that the law school is less religious than the undergrad, the fact remains that law schools deal with legal policy issues that come into direct conflict with Catholicism. If you attended ND UG and majored in economics or English or whatever, you're right, you probably could get through just fine.

Fighting fire with fire and not serious at all. I got WL by my alma mater (though I am going to a T14...life of a splitter). All ND undergrads have to take theo classes and I was a poli sci major until I switched to premed and econ, so I had a pretty wide experience of class types. As a pre-med major too I can tell you that all bio classes unquestioningly teach darwinism (indeed the science building is engraved with a quote that "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution), so above all the school yields to reason. If you are serious and not really flaming ND I truly believe you'll be fine there.

[bernard97]

Hey, you guys are not being very tolerant of this asshole.

Wow, you've contributed exactly nothing to this thread. Not even witty comments. If you're going to be snarky, at least make it amusing for others.

Also, are you some born-again nut who speaks in tongues? Why are you so offended by my atheism? Seriously, it's not hurting you. No one is forcing you to "tolerate" this thread.

Born again nut? That's not very tolerant. Seems like you do have a problem with religious people.

He's trying to get a rise out of you, and succeeding. Well done

[quixotical]

Can this be moved to the lounge already?

I am legitimately looking for factors to decide between peer schools given my background and goals. Why isn't this relevant for "Choosing a law school"? Just because some posters are trying to be funny but failing?

Serious answers to the original question are welcome and appreciated.

[birdlaw117]

Hey, you guys are not being very tolerant of this asshole.

Wow, you've contributed exactly nothing to this thread. Not even witty comments. If you're going to be snarky, at least make it amusing for others.

Also, are you some born-again nut who speaks in tongues? Why are you so offended by my atheism? Seriously, it's not hurting you. No one is forcing you to "tolerate" this thread.

He actually gave some legitimate, albeit snarky, advice earlier.

[quixotical]

Hey, you guys are not being very tolerant of this asshole.

Wow, you've contributed exactly nothing to this thread. Not even witty comments. If you're going to be snarky, at least make it amusing for others.

Also, are you some born-again nut who speaks in tongues? Why are you so offended by my atheism? Seriously, it's not hurting you. No one is forcing you to "tolerate" this thread.

Born again nut? That's not very tolerant. Seems like you do have a problem with religious people.

He's trying to get a rise out of you, and succeeding. Well done

You can be a born-again nut as well as an atheist nut. It's not derogatory to all born-agains. Also, I added in the caveat of "speaking in tongues." I would say that's pretty good evidence of either being a charlatan or unbalanced.

[Stringer Bell]

Also, I know that attending BYU, for example, would be ridiculous for someone like me even if it was the best school they got into. I think being an atheist in a self-selected Christian environment is fundamentally different than a Christian in a self-selected liberal environment. Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it. (Not looking for a religious debate, just saying there is a big difference.)

If you really didn't want this to turn into a debate about religion, I don't know why you wrote the bolded without any real provocation and thought it wouldn't turn out that way.

It sounds like you should go to Minnesota. You don't want to be in an environment with a religous back drop, so don't subject yourself to it since they are peer schools for the most part.

[quixotical]

Also, I know that attending BYU, for example, would be ridiculous for someone like me even if it was the best school they got into. I think being an atheist in a self-selected Christian environment is fundamentally different than a Christian in a self-selected liberal environment. Liberalism implies tolerance. Christianity, by definition, excludes it. (Not looking for a religious debate, just saying there is a big difference.)

If you really didn't want this to turn into a debate about religion, I don't know why you wrote the bolded without any real provocation and thought it wouldn't turn out that way.

It sounds like you should go to Minnesota. You don't want to be in an environment with a religous back drop, so don't subject yourself to it since they are peer schools for the most part.

It's the "for the most part" that worries me, but thanks for your advice.

For the record, I wrote that in direct response to another poster-- it's all about context. But you're probably right, if I hadn't written that some of this may have been prevented (though I think enough people here are anti-atheist enough to have "contributed" regardless).

[anti-phronimos]

Can this be moved to the lounge already?

I am legitimately looking for factors to decide between peer schools given my background and goals. Why isn't this relevant for "Choosing a law school"? Just because some posters are trying to be funny but failing?

Serious answers to the original question are welcome and appreciated.

ND is super catholic, but even though you were raised catholic, it doesn't sound like you've been around it in an academic environment. "Pope's word=God's law" comments don't get much play in serious discussions about ethics regarding human persons, etc. I can't remember a single priest, theologian or philosophy professor who took catholic positions at face value--they defend them vigorously and appeal to more than just church doctrine.

You should go to ND--it has better employment prospects and a significant PI bent. Hell, you might even get over your belief in the non-existence of a thing and try more positive assertions of faith in something more worthwhile than flaming on TLS.

[quixotical]

Hell, you might even get over your belief in the non-existence of a thing and try more positive assertions of faith in something more worthwhile than flaming on TLS.

Thanks very much for your advice-- if ND's law school doesn't try to make ethical arguments based on God's existence, then I should be fine. I don't have any clue what you're trying to say in the above though-- "more positive assertions of faith"? Will I also get over my belief in the non-existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[witorres89]

Hell, you might even get over your belief in the non-existence of a thing and try more positive assertions of faith in something more worthwhile than flaming on TLS.

Thanks very much for your advice-- if ND's law school doesn't try to make ethical arguments based on God's existence, then I should be fine. I don't have any clue what you're trying to say in the above though-- "more positive assertions of faith"? Will I also get over my belief in the non-existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Flying spaghetti monster exists and you will boil in the eternal sauce pot for your ignorance

[anti-phronimos]

Hell, you might even get over your belief in the non-existence of a thing and try more positive assertions of faith in something more worthwhile than flaming on TLS.

Thanks very much for your advice-- if ND's law school doesn't try to make ethical arguments based on God's existence, then I should be fine. I don't have any clue what you're trying to say in the above though-- "more positive assertions of faith"? Will I also get over my belief in the non-existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

They might, but that shouldn't be too upsetting. Ethical arguments are usually based in something fishy anyway.

re: "more positive assertions of faith"--You have faith in the notion that human rights truly exist or did we just make them up and call it a day? Go fight for that cause instead saying that others, by definition, are limited in their capacity to do the right thing. Atheism or theism, who gives a damn--they're both standing on shitty logical ground, so why not go do something worthwhile instead?

FSM for the win.

[Sandro]

ND just do it.

[Always Credited]

This thread is hilarious. thank you for this gem...back to cramming civ pro gogogo

[JamMasterJ]

If you're that concerned, go to American FO FREEEE!!

[org_chemist]

I think you should choose ND. I went to ND for undergrad. Yes there is a lot of Catholicism on campus, but like others said, it is mainly the undergraduates that voice their views, not the grad or law students. It's one of those things that is there, you can take it or leave it.

The year long program in London is definitely worth doing if it is something you are very interested in. I did a semester abroad in London, which is located in the same building that the law schools students use for their program. In my opinion, this made my ND experience. That semester abroad was amazing. Plus there are opportunities for law students to intern at Parliament and get a taste of law in England.

[Justathought]

To the OP:

I don't think you should go to ND; let me explain why.

You're a supporter of Richard Dawkins, right? You, like him, are intolerant of intolerance, right? You also believe that certain Catholic beliefs are inherently intolerant, right?

The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic institution, and thus it is inexorably tied to the church. This includes the law school. Assuming Notre Dame spends less on student expenditures than you pay in tuition, by attending you will be supporting the Catholic church. If your tuition is less than student expenditures, then you are benefiting from the church's generosity. You will be the benefactor of funding from an intolerant institution. Both situations seem to be at odds with your beliefs. In fact, I would say the latter scenario is hypocritical.

However, perhaps you would see the second scenario as a positive. After all, by taking funding from the school, you are essentially siphoning off funds from students who may share in the church's beliefs. Still, you will forever be associated with the University of Notre Dame. Even if you go on to become a wildly successful Atheism lawyer, someone will likely look at your pedigree and say, "Notre Dame, they produce damn good Atheism lawyers, I should go there and pay full tuition." In essence, unless you go on to an extremely lackluster career, your story will contribute to the future success of the University.

The question which needs to be asked is not, "Can I be happy at Notre Dame?", but rather, "Should I, as an Atheist opposed to intolerance, go to Notre Dame?"

You will surely find plenty of people at the University with liberal beliefs. There will be gay students, pro-gay students, and pro-choice students. Nevertheless, you are a slightly different breed - you are intolerant of intolerance. If the Catholic church is intolerant, then Notre Dame is also intolerant. Attending the law school seems at odds with your belief system, and going there should pose a serious moral dilemma for you.

If I were you, I would attend Minnesota, regardless of slightly worse career prospects. Attending Notre Dame seems a risky proposition to your conscious.



P.S. I'm Agnostic and would head to ND in a heartbeat, since it has better placement. You seem very serious about all this, or at least serious about this flame, so you shouldn't go there. Good luck with your decision.

[OutCold]

Nobody mentioned that this was posted on Easter?

Disclaimer: I'm a Jew.

[Law Sauce]

Do you really think being an atheist is a shameful secret? 16% of the US population is non-religious... so we're a minority, but not *that* much of a minority. I suspect it's worse to be an atheist in some places than others... are you in the deep south/the Bible belt? There's definitely a stigma against it, but in academia (with the exception of religiously affiliated schools) there is a much higher number of atheists. Atheism correlates positively to education and intelligence.

I haven't spoken at all yet, but come one. This is incredibly ridiculous. See the enlightenment project's prediction of the end of religion after 1920.