For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

For a future career in academia, must I choose Harvard over UChicago, Berkeley, and NYU?

Go to Harvard. Period.
61
56%
Consider UChicago over HLS, but not Berkeley or NYU.
31
28%
Consider UChicago and Berkeley, but not NYU.
0
No votes
Consider UChicago and NYU, but not Berkeley.
4
4%
All four schools are great options.
9
8%
Other/None of the above.
4
4%
 
Total votes: 109

MTthePockets
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For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby MTthePockets » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:32 pm

I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

d34d9823
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:34 pm

MTthePockets wrote:I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

Chicago's academia placement is really close with H. The other two are not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

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jtemp320
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby jtemp320 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:35 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
MTthePockets wrote:I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

Chicago's academia placement is really close with H. The other two are not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml


+1

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:00 pm

It also depends on what you want to research/teach. E.g. if you're studying law and philosophy, NYU is a top choice.

I'm assuming you're aware of all the hurdles to an academic job so I'll refrain from going through them.

spondee
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby spondee » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:23 pm

H >>> C > N/B. However, publication history, scholarly agenda, and faculty connections >>>>>>>> difference in pedigree between these schools.

Here's two threads from profs answering similar questions --

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113848&p=2809565#p2809565

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=137145&p=3605337#p3605337

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FuManChusco
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:33 pm

spondee wrote:H >>> C > N/B. However, publication history, scholarly agenda, and faculty connections >>>>>>>> difference in pedigree between these schools.

Here's two threads from profs answering similar questions --

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113848&p=2809565#p2809565

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=137145&p=3605337#p3605337


isn't it more like H > C >>> N/B

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Veyron
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby Veyron » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:46 pm

Yale.




Woops.

sarahh
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby sarahh » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:02 pm

Are we talking about sticker here? I would not choice another school on the list at sticker above Harvard. But I have a husband that is willing to go wherever. If you will be going to another school for your significant other, you have to ask yourself how secure you feel in the relationship and if you would be satisfied with the choice even if you broke up. These are all terrific schools, but overall, I think Harvard will give you the best options.

MTthePockets
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby MTthePockets » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:21 pm

jtemp320 wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
MTthePockets wrote:I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

Chicago's academia placement is really close with H. The other two are not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml


+1


Yea, I'm addicted to that site (yikes). I know that NYU and Berkeley are in the "third tier" according to Leiter, while Harvard and Chicago are in the second, but NYU at least seems to have placed more emphasis in recent years on helping students secure academic careers. I wonder how that will pan out.

MTthePockets
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby MTthePockets » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:23 pm

Veyron wrote:Yale.




Woops.



Rejected last night. Twist the knife in why don't you :wink:

MTthePockets
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby MTthePockets » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:43 pm

The Real Jack McCoy wrote:It also depends on what you want to research/teach. E.g. if you're studying law and philosophy, NYU is a top choice.


Hoping to do law and political theory...I know that Harvard and UChicago have amazing political theory faculty, and allow for some cross-registration. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

I should also mention that I'm planning to go for a PhD at some point after law school. I've heard that, for aspiring law profs, law school caliber matters more than PhD program caliber. But maybe a PhD could make up for a slight difference in prestige? Hopefully?

The Real Jack McCoy wrote:I'm assuming you're aware of all the hurdles to an academic job so I'll refrain from going through them.


Painfully aware.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:51 pm

If you're planning on a PhD post-law school I'd strongly encourage you to look into Harvard's LIPP program. From what I understand, it'll basically pay off your loans while you are attending your PhD program.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:27 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
MTthePockets wrote:I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

Chicago's academia placement is really close with H. The other two are not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

As far as recent placement goes, nearly all of the T14 have improved their "Per Capita" placement score in the past several years, with many doing so by rather significant margins. In the past few years HYS have moved a decent ways ahead of the rest of the pack. Chicago's placement in the years since the Leiter survey has begun to lag behind Harvard's (hmm, I can't imagine why Leiter hasn't updated the survey in the past three years with Solum's data), but is still noticeably better than Berkeley and NYU's. As a side rant, look at all the data Leiter has compiled for legal hiring - as often as possible, he will put together random statistics/data where Chicago comes out looking good. Why does Leiter randomly calculate 2006's entry level hiring data, but does so for no other year? Oh, because Chicago beat Stanford that year - of course! Why update historical trends since 1995 instead of compiling the most recent information on who is currently being hired? Oh, because Chicago's historical hiring data was much better then and has somewhat declined in recent years! The fact that people cite to this data so frequently and that Leiter hasn't been completely discredited by this point astounds me - he did the same thing at Texas, and is still doing it at Chicago. On the other hand, I'd defintely hire him to teach at my school if solely for the reason that he'd put out frequently-cited data that paints my school in the best light possible to deciding students. :roll: Now, this isn't to say that Chicago is bad; to the contrary, Chicago is fantastic at academia placement. But HYS have moved well ahead in recent years, and the rest of the T14 (including Chicago) has been left behind. In fact, other T14 schools have been narrowing the gap of Chicago's prior advantage, but Leiter has done well to ensure that nobody notices anything other than positive evidence of Chicago's placement relative to other schools.



For a breakdown of the information we have for academic hiring post-Leiter (since Leiter only put together 2003-2007), I've compiled and *UPDATED* the T14 2003-2011 Entry Level Hiring Data (note: 2010's data is reportedly incomplete, so this might need to be adjusted if I can ever find a finalized link). To give a better idea of the most recent trends (since per capita placement has increased across the board) in terms of which schools are improving their own academic placement, I've also calculated per capita percentage changes in the updated data as compared to Leiter's data. Summary: The blue data is what matters the most, but the red/green data shows how placement rates are trending over the past few years.

T14 2003-2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score / +or- from Leiter / Per Capita fluctuation in 08-111 relative to 03-07
Ya 173 / 200 / 0.865 / +.435 / +101%
Ha 187 / 550 / 0.340 / +.160 / +88%
St 59 / 175 / 0.337 / +.167 / +98%
Co 72 / 375 / 0.192 / +.092 / +92%
Ch 48 / 200 / 0.240 / +.090 / +60%
NY 67 / 450 / 0.148 / +.078 / +111%
Pe 24 / 250 / 0.096 / +.036 / +60%
Mi 53 / 375 / 0.141 / +.081 / +135%
Be 42 / 275 / 0.152 / +.082 / +117%
Vi 37 / 375 / 0.098 / +.028 / +40%
Du 16 / 200 / 0.080 / +.030 / +60%
NU 14 / 250 / 0.056 / +.026 / +86%
Co 8 / 200 / 0.040 / +.020 / +100%
Gt 26 / 575 / 0.045 / +.015 / +50%


Also, here is the data only from the 2008-2011 information (note: Per Capita scores will be smaller in a shorter time frame since these aren't class percentages, merely a way of equalizing the data for class size):

T14 2008-2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 87 / 200 / 0.435
Ha 86 / 550 / 0.156
St 30 / 175 / 0.171
Co 33 / 375 / 0.088
Ch 19 / 200 / 0.095
NY 34 / 450 / 0.075
Pe 10 / 250 / 0.040
Mi 31 / 375 / 0.082
Be 22 / 275 / 0.080
Vi 11 / 375 / 0.029
Du 6 / 200 / 0.030
NU 7 / 250 / 0.028
Co 4 / 200 / 0.020
Gt 10 / 575 / 0.017

Finally, since Leiter suggests that the 2010 data is incomplete (which I believe because these numbers are far smaller than normal years, and there's no reason to think hiring stopped in 2010 but not in 2009 - can anyone find me a link to the finalized 2010 reports?), I've compiled the three years post-Leiter where the data is "complete" and hopefully accurate:

T14 2008-2009, 2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 69 / 200 / 0.345
Ha 69 / 550 / 0.125
St 27 / 175 / 0.154
Co 28 / 375 / 0.074
Ch 16 / 200 / 0.080
NY 26 / 450 / 0.057
Pe 6 / 250 / 0.024
Mi 28 / 375 / 0.074
Be 18 / 275 / 0.065
Vi 6 / 375 / 0.016
Du 5 / 200 / 0.025
NU 5 / 250 / 0.020
Co 4 / 200 / 0.020
Gt 8 / 575 / 0.013

And, in order to do a Leiter-spin of my own, this year (and at my discretion, possibly only this year :wink: ) I've decided to start calculating the most recent year's data by itself with schools ranked in order of their relative placement (zomg, I wonder who will kick ass in the rankings in my selective data-spin?!):

T14 2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
1.) Ya 18 / 200 / 0.090
2.) St 9 / 175 / 0.051
3.) Ha 19 / 550 / 0.034
4.) Mi 10 / 375 / 0.026
5.) Ch 5 / 200 / 0.025
6.) Co 9 / 375 / 0.024
7.) Ny 10 / 450 / 0.022
8.) Be 6 / 275 / 0.021
9.) Cor 4 / 200 / 0.020
10.) Du 3 / 200 / 0.015
11.) Pe 3 / 250 / 0.012
12.) Vi 2 / 375 / 0.005
13.) Gt 3 / 575 / 0.005
14.) NU 1 / 250 / 0.004


Update: I'm adding visual representations. The first chart is the T14 containing all of Leiter's data and the more recent data (but keep in mind that 2010 is rumored to be incomplete).
Image

The second chart is the T14 without Yale, which makes it significantly easier to figure out what on earth is going on besides Yalie dominance.
Image


Take this data for what it's worth - hiring outside of Yale becomes increasingly difficult, and HYS as a whole are a good deal above the rest of the T14. Entry level hiring matches the order of the T14 pretty well, with some schools outperforming their brackets, and others slightly underperforming their brackets. The takeaway is that academia is an extremely tough nut to crack, and OP should probably be strongly considering HLS if serious about breaking into academia. Also, feel free to suggest changes to this data or alter it in whatever form you will.


Data Sources:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_teaching.shtml
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2008/04/2008-entry-leve.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2009/04/2009-entry-level-hiring-report.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2010/04/entry-level-hiring-survey-2010.html
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2011/05/entry-level-hiring-final-summary.html#more
Last edited by FlightoftheEarls on Thu May 19, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.

tecumseh
Posts: 19
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Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby tecumseh » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:49 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
MTthePockets wrote:
I know that Harvard is the conventional answer, but because of personal circumstances (my SO is applying to med schools) one of the other three may end up being way more convenient. Will I actually be disadvantaging myself if I go to UChicago? What about Berkeley or NYU?

Chicago's academia placement is really close with H. The other two are not. --LinkRemoved-- ... hing.shtml
As far as recent placement goes, nearly all of the T14 have improved their "Per Capita" placement score in the past several years, with many doing so by rather significant margins. In the past few years HYS have moved a decent ways ahead of the rest of the pack. Chicago's placement in the years since the Leiter survey has begun to lag behind Harvard's (hmm, I can't imagine why Leiter hasn't updated the survey in the past three years with Solum's data), but is still noticeably better than Berkeley and NYU's. As a side rant, look at all the data Leiter has compiled for legal hiring - as often as possible, he will put together random statistics/data where Chicago comes out looking good. Why does Leiter randomly calculate 2006's entry level hiring data, but does so for no other year? Oh, because Chicago beat Stanford that year - of course! Why update historical trends since 1995 instead of compiling the most recent information on who is currently being hired? Oh, because Chicago's historical hiring data is much better! The fact that people cite to this data so frequently and that Leiter hasn't been completely discredited by this point astounds me - he did the same thing at Texas, and is still doing it at Chicago. On the other hand, I'd defintely hire him to teach at my school if solely for the reason that he'd put out frequently-cited data that paints my school in the best light possible to deciding students. And as a disclaimer, this isn't to say that Chicago is bad; to the contrary, Chicago is fantastic at academia placement. But HYS have moved well ahead in recent years, and the rest of the T14 (including Chicago) has been left behind. In fact, other T14 schools have been narrowing the gap of Chicago's prior advantage, but Leiter has done well to ensure that nobody notices anything other than positive evidence of Chicago's placement relative to other schools.

For a breakdown of the information we have for academic hiring post-Leiter, I've compiled the T14 2003-2010 entry level hiring data (note: 2010's data is reportedly incomplete, so this might need to be adjusted). To give a better idea of the most recent trends (since per capita placement has increased across the board) in terms of which schools are improving their own academic placement, I've also calculated per capita percentage changes in the updated data as compared to Leiter's data. Summary: The blue data is what matters the most, but the red/green data shows how placement rates are trending over the past few years.

T14 2003-2010 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score / +or- from Leiter / Per Capita fluctuation in 08-10 relative to 03-07
Ya 155 / 200 / 0.775 / +.344 / +80%
Ha 168 / 550 / 0.305 / +.125 / +69%
St 50 / 175 / 0.285 / +.115 / +67%
Co 63 / 375 / 0.168 / +.068 / +68%
Ch 43 / 200 / 0.215 / +.065 / +43%
NY 57 / 450 / 0.126 / +.056 / +80%
Pe 21 / 250 / 0.084 / +.024 / +40%
Mi 43 / 375 / 0.114 / +.054 / +90%
Be 36 / 275 / 0.130 / +.060 / +85%
Vi 35 / 375 / 0.093 / +.023 / +32%
Du 13 / 200 / 0.065 / +.015 / +30%
NU 13 / 250 / 0.052 / +.022 / +73%
Co 4 / 200 / 0.020 / + .000 / +0%
Gt 23 / 575 / 0.040 / +.010 / +33%


Also, here is the data only from the 2008-2010 information (note: Per Capita scores will be smaller in a shorter time frame since these aren't class percentages, merely a way of equalizing the data for class size):

T14 2008-2010 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 69 / 200 / 0.345
Ha 67 / 550 / 0.121
St 21 / 175 / 0.120
Co 24 / 375 / 0.064
Ch 14 / 200 / 0.070
NY 24 / 450 / 0.053
Pe 7 / 250 / 0.028
Mi 21 / 375 / 0.056
Be 16 / 275 / 0.058
Vi 9 / 375 / 0.024
Du 3 / 200 / 0.015
NU 6 / 250 / 0.024
Co 0 / 200 / 0.000
Gt 7 / 575 / 0.012

Finally, since Leiter was the one suggesting that the 2010 data is incomplete (which I believe - these numbers are far smaller than normal years, and there's no reason to think hiring stopped in 2010 but not in 2009), I've compiled the two years post-Leiter where the data is "complete" and hopefully accurate:

T14 2008-2009 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 51 / 200 / 0.255
Ha 50 / 550 / 0.090
St 18 / 175 / 0.102
Co 19 / 375 / 0.050
Ch 11 / 200 / 0.055
NY 16 / 450 / 0.035
Pe 3 / 250 / 0.012
Mi 18 / 375 / 0.048
Be 12 / 275 / 0.043
Vi 4 / 375 / 0.010
Du 2 / 200 / 0.010
NU 4 / 250 / 0.016
Co 0 / 200 / 0.000
Gt 5 / 575 / 0.008


Take this data for what it's worth - hiring outside of Yale becomes increasingly difficult, and HYS as a whole are a good deal above the rest of the T14. Entry level hiring matches the order of the T14 pretty well, with some schools outperforming their brackets, and others slightly underperforming their brackets. The takeaway is that academia is an extremely tough nut to crack, and OP should probably be strongly considering HLS if serious about breaking into academia. Also, feel free to suggest changes to this data or alter it in whatever form you will.


Data Sources:
--LinkRemoved-- ... hing.shtml
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... -leve.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... eport.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... -2010.html



Great post...yeah this is something I have noticed too. From Leiter's rankings, it sounds like it's Y>HC>S but from the more recent data I have read around the web and from posts from profs like those above, it's appears that's not really the case. I think there's an argument that Chicago is probably still better than any other school outside of HYS for academia (as much as that might mean anything) given its smaller class sizes and thus better chance to know profs as well as its more theoretical bent and better clerkship placement. But I think Leiter might be not truthful (shocker!) in portraying Chicago as some kind of powerhouse for academic placement that's comparable to say Harvard.

BeautifulSW
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:52 am

Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby BeautifulSW » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:31 pm

Seems to me Yale is the most heavily over-represented school in legal academia then Harvard. Except for clinical supervisors and writing instructors; these seem to come from all over. But my sample is limited to my own observation and that doesn't go very far.

trudat15
Posts: 900
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:57 pm

Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby trudat15 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:51 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:As far as recent placement goes, nearly all of the T14 have improved their "Per Capita" placement score in the past several years, with many doing so by rather significant margins. In the past few years HYS have moved a decent ways ahead of the rest of the pack. Chicago's placement in the years since the Leiter survey has begun to lag behind Harvard's (hmm, I can't imagine why Leiter hasn't updated the survey in the past three years with Solum's data), but is still noticeably better than Berkeley and NYU's. As a side rant, look at all the data Leiter has compiled for legal hiring - as often as possible, he will put together random statistics/data where Chicago comes out looking good. Why does Leiter randomly calculate 2006's entry level hiring data, but does so for no other year? Oh, because Chicago beat Stanford that year - of course! Why update historical trends since 1995 instead of compiling the most recent information on who is currently being hired? Oh, because Chicago's historical hiring data is much better! The fact that people cite to this data so frequently and that Leiter hasn't been completely discredited by this point astounds me - he did the same thing at Texas, and is still doing it at Chicago. On the other hand, I'd defintely hire him to teach at my school if solely for the reason that he'd put out frequently-cited data that paints my school in the best light possible to deciding students. :roll: And as a disclaimer, this isn't to say that Chicago is bad; to the contrary, Chicago is fantastic at academia placement. But HYS have moved well ahead in recent years, and the rest of the T14 (including Chicago) has been left behind. In fact, other T14 schools have been narrowing the gap of Chicago's prior advantage, but Leiter has done well to ensure that nobody notices anything other than positive evidence of Chicago's placement relative to other schools.

For a breakdown of the information we have for academic hiring post-Leiter, I've compiled the T14 2003-2010 entry level hiring data (note: 2010's data is reportedly incomplete, so this might need to be adjusted). To give a better idea of the most recent trends (since per capita placement has increased across the board) in terms of which schools are improving their own academic placement, I've also calculated per capita percentage changes in the updated data as compared to Leiter's data. Summary: The blue data is what matters the most, but the red/green data shows how placement rates are trending over the past few years.

T14 2003-2010 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score / +or- from Leiter / Per Capita fluctuation in 08-10 relative to 03-07
Ya 155 / 200 / 0.775 / +.344 / +80%
Ha 168 / 550 / 0.305 / +.125 / +69%
St 50 / 175 / 0.285 / +.115 / +67%
Co 63 / 375 / 0.168 / +.068 / +68%
Ch 43 / 200 / 0.215 / +.065 / +43%
NY 57 / 450 / 0.126 / +.056 / +80%
Pe 21 / 250 / 0.084 / +.024 / +40%
Mi 43 / 375 / 0.114 / +.054 / +90%
Be 36 / 275 / 0.130 / +.060 / +85%
Vi 35 / 375 / 0.093 / +.023 / +32%
Du 13 / 200 / 0.065 / +.015 / +30%
NU 13 / 250 / 0.052 / +.022 / +73%
Co 4 / 200 / 0.020 / + .000 / +0%
Gt 23 / 575 / 0.040 / +.010 / +33%


Also, here is the data only from the 2008-2010 information (note: Per Capita scores will be smaller in a shorter time frame since these aren't class percentages, merely a way of equalizing the data for class size):

T14 2008-2010 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 69 / 200 / 0.345
Ha 67 / 550 / 0.121
St 21 / 175 / 0.120
Co 24 / 375 / 0.064
Ch 14 / 200 / 0.070
NY 24 / 450 / 0.053
Pe 7 / 250 / 0.028
Mi 21 / 375 / 0.056
Be 16 / 275 / 0.058
Vi 9 / 375 / 0.024
Du 3 / 200 / 0.015
NU 6 / 250 / 0.024
Co 0 / 200 / 0.000
Gt 7 / 575 / 0.012

Finally, since Leiter was the one suggesting that the 2010 data is incomplete (which I believe - these numbers are far smaller than normal years, and there's no reason to think hiring stopped in 2010 but not in 2009), I've compiled the two years post-Leiter where the data is "complete" and hopefully accurate:

T14 2008-2009 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 51 / 200 / 0.255
Ha 50 / 550 / 0.090
St 18 / 175 / 0.102
Co 19 / 375 / 0.050
Ch 11 / 200 / 0.055
NY 16 / 450 / 0.035
Pe 3 / 250 / 0.012
Mi 18 / 375 / 0.048
Be 12 / 275 / 0.043
Vi 4 / 375 / 0.010
Du 2 / 200 / 0.010
NU 4 / 250 / 0.016
Co 0 / 200 / 0.000
Gt 5 / 575 / 0.008


Take this data for what it's worth - hiring outside of Yale becomes increasingly difficult, and HYS as a whole are a good deal above the rest of the T14. Entry level hiring matches the order of the T14 pretty well, with some schools outperforming their brackets, and others slightly underperforming their brackets. The takeaway is that academia is an extremely tough nut to crack, and OP should probably be strongly considering HLS if serious about breaking into academia. Also, feel free to suggest changes to this data or alter it in whatever form you will.


Data Sources:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2008/04/2008-entry-leve.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2009/04/2009-entry-level-hiring-report.html
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2010/04/entry-level-hiring-survey-2010.html


Question that may make me look like a stats n00b:
Why do you use total number of hires againt class size per year? As opposed to total class size for the x year period?

tecumseh
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:53 am

Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby tecumseh » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:11 pm

Question that may make me look like a stats n00b:
Why do you use total number of hires againt class size per year? As opposed to total class size for the x year period?


That's how Leiter does his too; you're right it might be more logical to use total number of hires per year against the class size per year since that's gives you a better idea of the placement % per class. But maybe this makes the number seem slightly less depressing ;). Or maybe it accounts for variations in class size over the time period? I guess it doesn't really matter if you just comparing schools relatively to each other...

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FlightoftheEarls
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: For a career in academia: HLS, UChicago, NYU, Berkeley?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:12 pm

tecumseh wrote:
Question that may make me look like a stats n00b:
Why do you use total number of hires againt class size per year? As opposed to total class size for the x year period?


That's how Leiter does his too; you're right it might be more logical to use total number of hires per year against the class size per year since that's gives you a better idea of the placement % per class. But maybe this makes the number seem slightly less depressing ;). Or maybe it accounts for variations in class size over the time period? I guess it doesn't really matter if you just comparing schools relatively to each other...

Yeah, I just used the same technique Leiter did instead of dividing it over the class years. The point of the comparison was more to see how schools did relative to each other, rather than what percentage of the class places into academia. I do agree, though, that just dividing by one year's class size makes academia look even more attainable than it may be.




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