UC Davis, Hastings, Irvine or Emory? Forum

[LettuceBeefRealTea]

UCI does look awesome, but the paranoid part of me has concerns. I'm concerned Irvine doesn't have an alumni base to draw on...though I'm debating what the benefits of having an alumni base really are at the moment. If it doesn't really lead to jobs, I wouldn't see how it would hamper going to Irvine any. I'm also a bit concerned that it'll take quite a while for Irvine to be ranked and known more nationally, though they do seem to have nice support in the OC for sure. Also unsure about how Irvine would do for my BigLaw goals. It seems some people got internships with firms at UCI, but whether those translate into jobs is an open question at the moment. I'm not sure if I can get any of these questions fully answered though, it's all related to the nebulous future, risk-taking and speculations.

I feel like with Hastings or Davis you know what you are getting, with UCI you could get hosed, but if you don't, then the upside is much higher than any of the schools mentioned, and for cheaper.
My reasoning for wanting to go there is that it is absolutely in the school's best interest to leverage every advantage they have to placing you in the best jobs they can find in the coming years. Not just the Class of '13, but each and every student individually; they know that these students are taking a huge risk to go there, and if they don't come through for them, then high quality applicants will be deterred in the future. I think they are doing that well, seeing as the number of OCIs has exceeded the number of students in each class every year so far.

EDIT: inb4 LSAT Prep crowd shows up with evidence that "would most weaken the conclusion" that I have made.

i think the risk/reward ratio at irvine is better than your other options, but i am not the most risk adverse person. i think all those teachers are going to be pulling high up personal contacts to get students placed. everyone involved with the school are invested in all of the students getting the best possible jobs. most schools only give comparable assistance to their top 30-40%.

stepping outside of all the ranking whoring that goes on this site, i think irvine has major intangibles going its way. call me naive, but i think the quality and accessibility of teachers along with class size are some of the most important factors in any kind of education. i also think that bold choices make life more fulfilling and that the experience of building and molding a new institution sounds awesome.

[alexonfyre]

UCI does look awesome, but the paranoid part of me has concerns. I'm concerned Irvine doesn't have an alumni base to draw on...though I'm debating what the benefits of having an alumni base really are at the moment. If it doesn't really lead to jobs, I wouldn't see how it would hamper going to Irvine any. I'm also a bit concerned that it'll take quite a while for Irvine to be ranked and known more nationally, though they do seem to have nice support in the OC for sure. Also unsure about how Irvine would do for my BigLaw goals. It seems some people got internships with firms at UCI, but whether those translate into jobs is an open question at the moment. I'm not sure if I can get any of these questions fully answered though, it's all related to the nebulous future, risk-taking and speculations.

I feel like with Hastings or Davis you know what you are getting, with UCI you could get hosed, but if you don't, then the upside is much higher than any of the schools mentioned, and for cheaper.
My reasoning for wanting to go there is that it is absolutely in the school's best interest to leverage every advantage they have to placing you in the best jobs they can find in the coming years. Not just the Class of '13, but each and every student individually; they know that these students are taking a huge risk to go there, and if they don't come through for them, then high quality applicants will be deterred in the future. I think they are doing that well, seeing as the number of OCIs has exceeded the number of students in each class every year so far.

EDIT: inb4 LSAT Prep crowd shows up with evidence that "would most weaken the conclusion" that I have made.

i think the risk/reward ratio at irvine is better than your other options, but i am not the most risk adverse person. i think all those teachers are going to be pulling high up personal contacts to get students placed. everyone involved with the school are invested in all of the students getting the best possible jobs. most schools only give comparable assistance to their top 30-40%.

stepping outside of all the ranking whoring that goes on this site, i think irvine has major intangibles going its way. call me naive, but i think the quality and accessibility of teachers along with class size are some of the most important factors in any kind of education. i also think that bold choices make life more fulfilling and that the experience of building and molding a new institution sounds awesome.

I agree, we are in a unique position to be offered the opportunity to be able to help build what could become an elite institution. Passing that type of thing up is what leads to regrets later on in life.

[Lasers]

I'm choosing between UC Davis at sticker or Northeastern with $60k and living at home. Torn between practicing in Boston or California. Can anyone help? It seems that no one seems to think UC Davis really deserves to be the #23 ranked LS.. also seems strange that people would go to Hastings (#42) over #23 when they are in the same legal market. What are the prospects for BigLaw out of UC Davis? Any advice would be great..

people will go to hastings over davis because of three reasons: they provide the same employment prospects (hastings might even have a slight edge), hastings has a larger and more established alumni, and hastings' location is ideal.

i broached the topic of davis' rising rank when talking to a professor at the hastings ASD, and he told me it was due largely to davis' sketchy employment percentage claim (as speculated by most people here). also, he says that hastings largely neglected the rankings under past leadership, but has recently broke down the us news methodology under dean wu and are aiming for smaller class sizes and other things to improve its rank.

[Lasers]

also, as for irvine, i think it's going to be a very good school, and as others have said, it could be a great opportunity to help be part of a young and growing institution.

with that said, i didn't even apply there despite me attending uci for undergrad because the risk is too big for me and i care about employment opportunity far more than i care about anything else.

[Metaread]

Hastings does seem more well regarded than Davis overall, it seems TLSers are mostly excited about Davis due to the new King Hall and their rise in the rankings over the past 2 years. I'm a bit skeptical of Davis, esp. since they keep talking about rankings in their promotions. That said, it does seem like a decent school. The votes are really close now.

UCI is so tempting! But I'm worried that in future years, when schollies aren't offered to each and every admit student, their incoming class will sport lower GPA and LSAT scores, reducing the school's reputation for quality (like it or not, true or not) and thus its reputation and employment strengths. Also it's going to be years before they're ranked nationally, and while that doesn't matter to me much early on, it might well matter to me later when I'm searching for jobs.

Also: Does Davis not offer merit scholarships? The admissions packet (which got here recently) talked about how the school would help meet financial need, but no mention of scholarships. I've only skimmed through the admit packet today due to a busy workday, so if I peruse it more deeply later I might end up kicking myself over not spotting it mentioned.

Right now Emory seems like the stable choice for me (oddly), though it's a bit disheartening the Emory admin hasn't quite gotten its act together on the employment stat/employment prospects generally.

[ViP]

Hastings does seem more well regarded than Davis overall, it seems TLSers are mostly excited about Davis due to the new King Hall and their rise in the rankings over the past 2 years. I'm a bit skeptical of Davis, esp. since they keep talking about rankings in their promotions. That said, it does seem like a decent school. The votes are really close now.

UCI is so tempting! But I'm worried that in future years, when schollies aren't offered to each and every admit student, their incoming class will sport lower GPA and LSAT scores, reducing the school's reputation for quality (like it or not, true or not) and thus its reputation and employment strengths. Also it's going to be years before they're ranked nationally, and while that doesn't matter to me much early on, it might well matter to me later when I'm searching for jobs.

Also: Does Davis not offer merit scholarships? The admissions packet (which got here recently) talked about how the school would help meet financial need, but no mention of scholarships. I've only skimmed through the admit packet today due to a busy workday, so if I peruse it more deeply later I might end up kicking myself over not spotting it mentioned.

Right now Emory seems like the stable choice for me (oddly), though it's a bit disheartening the Emory admin hasn't quite gotten its act together on the employment stat/employment prospects generally.

If that's your concern about UCI, it may comfort you (or not) to learn that UCI's chancellor has given a mandate to Dean Chemerinsky to not allow the entering median numbers to drop below their current positions (e.g. Chemerinsky has the liberty to keep class sizes as small as necessary to keep the median numbers at least as strong as they currently are). The law school is very much UCI's "baby," and the university is committed to doing everything necessary in order for the law school to meet its goals.

FWIW.

[Metaread]

Thanks for the added info, ViP.

Wow, 23 votes each for Davis and Irvine, even with Davis offering me only sticker price....is Davis worth it at sticker for non-Cali residents? The debt seems like it'd be too high, even if I later gain resident status. What do you think?

[ipod]

I'd pick Irvine for money alone and just take my chances with the new school.

Pick Davis only if you're decently risk adverse.

[thegreatk]

CHEMERINSKY!

[Rule11]

What an irresponsible thread.

OP, what's your backup plan when biglaw doesn't work out? Do you have any options that don't involve substantial debt?

edit: Just to be clear, nobody even batted an eye when the OP speculated that top 1/3 from Davis would be "good" for NYC biglaw. WTF?

[Metaread]

Going to any of the law schools in this thread involves substantial debt. If you know a profitable and speedy way to remove debt upon graduation as biglaw can, I'm all ears.

[Metaread]

Could anyone shed some light on why they voted for UC Davis? It's the leading candidate right now, though I suspect (I hope incorrectly) that people voted for it due to its rise in rankings, rather than because it actually is the best choice (debt wise it's probably the worst choice after Hastings).

[drdolittle]

Could anyone shed some light on why they voted for UC Davis? It's the leading candidate right now, though I suspect (I hope incorrectly) that people voted for it due to its rise in rankings, rather than because it actually is the best choice (debt wise it's probably the worst choice after Hastings).

Are you seriously basing your decision on that poll?! Or even letting it influence your decision at all considering such small differences in votes? Yeah, Davis is the leading candidate over Irvine by a grand total of 2 votes as of now. Big deal. This alone should not affect your decision whatsoever.

The far tougher question for you to think about is why Irvine is essentially even with Davis, given Irvine's significantly cheaper cost and far better faculty? Or whether the reasons for this (lack of accreditation, history, etc...) are a concern for you. I think it's the best choice with your debt aversion. Of course Emory would be really the best, but you seem to want to attend in CA at all cost.

Also, Davis has cheaper COL, but it has higher tuition/fees than Hastings. Unless of course you've got a better fin aid package from Davis already, Hastings and Davis will probably leave you in similar debt overall.

[yo!]

Are you seriously basing your decision on that poll?! Or even letting it influence your decision at all considering such small differences in votes? Yeah, Davis is the leading candidate over Irvine by a grand total of 2 votes as of now. Big deal. This alone should not affect your decision whatsoever.

The far tougher question for you to think about is why Irvine is essentially even with Davis, given Irvine's significantly cheaper cost and far better faculty? Or whether the reasons for this (lack of accreditation, history, etc...) are a concern for you. I think it's the best choice with your debt aversion. Of course Emory would be really the best, but you seem to want to attend in CA at all cost.

Also, Davis has cheaper COL, but it has higher tuition/fees than Hastings. Unless of course you've got a better fin aid package from Davis already, Hastings and Davis will probably leave you in similar debt overall.

This.
Have you even visited any of these schools? I'll make this easy for you:

1) assume equal ranking for all of your choices (they are not far enough apart to make any difference)
2) pick the one you like (read: the area you'd like to work)
3) attend

For whatever it's worth, I only voted for Davis because I assumed you'd get some kind of financial aid package. Since you didn't, I'm changing my vote to Irvine.

[Metaread]

Thanks for the input. Some responses: The difference between Irvine and Davis was much bigger (vote wise) previously. It wasn't just 2 votes back then. And still, I'm wondering why the two schools are considered so closely. Davis is "safer" sure, but what makes people sure it's better? And I too was expecting a merit scholarship, but I hear what merit schollies they do give pale in comparison to those offered by their competitors. Maybe they're just...unable to give as much.

I was unable to visit any of the schools, since I was overseas, and had job commitments. It's probably true that visiting would make this decision a lot easier, but I certainly won't be able to visit anytime soon. I still have no real idea whether I'd prefer Emory (for its north eastern reach) or Irvine (California as opposed to South if I place in the median...but perhaps practice in Atlanta won't be that bad? No idea really).

Hastings is out....I'd remove it as a poll option if people hadn't vouched for it....Davis is probably out too. I haven't paid the first deposit for them, whereas I have for Emory and Irvine. I don't really see any convincing reasons to attend Davis at the moment. I definitely don't want to pay sticker....anywhere. The new King Hall looks nice, but that won't compensate for their somewhat suspicious boasts and advertisement based on rankings (or rankings and other things, with rankings mentioned first).

[thegreatk]

Go to Irvine. Seriously. Do it.

OK if that didn't convince you, go visit and set up a meeting with Chemerinsky. If speaking to that man doesn't convince you, nothing will.

[uci2013]

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer. So I wouldn't say UCI is so PI focused that you won't find firm work. Biglaw will be based on grades, but that is true no matter where you go outside of maybe T3 or T5.

Regarding accreditation, we expect provisional accreditation over the summer, which mean the fairs we couldn't get interviews at this year, will be available to students next year. What did surprise me was how many programs waived their ABA accreditation requirements for summer positions: JAG, SEC and the JIOP program all waived the requirement, not sure about other programs but those are the ones I am aware of. The only time I felt the lack of accreditation to be an issue was for the PI career fair at UCLA where we could not interview - and like I said that should not be the case starting next year.

GL where ever you decide.

[ipod]

Since you've only paid deposits for two schools, isn't discussing the other two sort of a moot point? Just pick a state you'd rather spend three years at (http://www.weather.com) and enjoy gunning for biglaw.

[Metaread]

Since you've only paid deposits for two schools, isn't discussing the other two sort of a moot point? Just pick a state you'd rather spend three years at (http://www.weather.com) and enjoy gunning for biglaw.

Well, I *could* still pay for the Hastings and Davis deposits (until the 15th of April hits, later in Hastings' case), so I decided to keep them in the poll. Still not sure which state I like more...slight edge to California I guess, but very slight. Ideally I'd like to be in the Northeast, though California is fine. It's basically a question of whether I want to risk landing in the South as I aim for the Northeast, or whether I want to play safe and just choose Cali. But beyond that there's the question of facilities, faculty, and all these other factors. =|

Thanks for the encouragement though.

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer. So I wouldn't say UCI is so PI focused that you won't find firm work. Biglaw will be based on grades, but that is true no matter where you go outside of maybe T3 or T5.

Regarding accreditation, we expect provisional accreditation over the summer, which mean the fairs we couldn't get interviews at this year, will be available to students next year. What did surprise me was how many programs waived their ABA accreditation requirements for summer positions: JAG, SEC and the JIOP program all waived the requirement, not sure about other programs but those are the ones I am aware of. The only time I felt the lack of accreditation to be an issue was for the PI career fair at UCLA where we could not interview - and like I said that should not be the case starting next year.

GL where ever you decide.

Thanks for the info! Looking at the job placements so far, it does seem lots of people placed with firms. I will certainly keep that in mind. Now to do the mind-numbing and wacky guesstimation of whether Irvine or Davis places in better firms (taking into account class size, and placement % etc etc).

[JusticeHarlan]

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer.

You got me curious: how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer?

[uci2013]

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer.

You got me curious: how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer?

31 firms are listed and I know some of the firms have taken on more than one 2L so that is over half the class.

[drdolittle]

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer.

You got me curious: how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer?

31 firms are listed and I know some of the firms have taken on more than one 2L so that is over half the class.

I applaud your commitment to PI, and Chem's emphasis of it at Irvine, but I'm not surprised at all that during the past couple of years a large number of incoming students basically ended up fooling Irvine's idealistic admissions committee into thinking that they're especially into PI.

Irvine incoming students got a great deal financially through this year and had impressive top school stats as well. No reason to think they'd deviate too much from what the majority of top law students do: chase money. Claiming to intend otherwise on a free application for a free or greatly discounted education is just too easy. Everybody knew Irvine was looking for PI minded applicants.

As the tuition scholarships phase out in the coming years, I'd expect Irvine to land more truly PI students, if it still wants such a profile, but incoming stats might drop too. It'll be interesting, because to his credit the dean does seem very committed to establishing a top PI-oriented school...

[ipod]

Now to do the mind-numbing and wacky guesstimation of whether Irvine or Davis places in better firms (taking into account class size, and placement % etc etc).

I'm willing to bet this calculation will turn up around the same, give or take, with less stats on Irvine. A better way to decide between these two is ask yourself if you'd rather drive or bike during law school... or better yet, pay under or over $100K for school.

[JusticeHarlan]

As a PI minded 1L I was actually a little dismayed by how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer.

You got me curious: how many 2Ls are going the firm route this summer?

31 firms are listed and I know some of the firms have taken on more than one 2L so that is over half the class.

31 firms ain't bad, but you realize just because a firm shows up, doesn't mean they're taking anyone for the summer? 31 firms could all be after the same 10 students (who split among the 5 firms, so multiple students per firm).

I'm not saying my hypothesis is any better (or worse) than yours, I was just looking for more specific stats (number of students at NLJ250 firms, or something). If you don't have those, nothing wrong with that, I certainly don't have that data for my school's 2Ls. Just the way you phrased the post I was responded to made me think that data might be floating around.

[YourCaptain]

I dislike all of these options but Davis is probably the most 'known,' at least in CA.