All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Best of the four (all sticker)

UMiami
4
13%
Penn State
4
13%
Pitt
7
22%
Temple (PT)
17
53%
 
Total votes: 32

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incase2011
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All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:11 pm

FL resident (not that it matters for Miami).

Have strong ties to Pennsylvania too (both Pitt and Philly) - looking to work big/mid law with a focus on taxation (considering LLM), possibly corporate tax or estate planning. I've been waitlisted at some of these schools, so a ranking would be nice (disregard the chances of me getting in, etc. please, and consider them simply from the standpoint of the best choice possible).

I would definitely consider transferring later if it's a possibility for me. Keep that in mind (it's in the back of my mind - the only reason I mention this).

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to go to a school where: I've got a good possibility of transferring as far up as possible if I do really well; or I've got a good legal market to try my chances in if my grades are only decent.

TheFactor
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby TheFactor » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:17 pm

All things being equal, Temple is probably your best option. However, if you're already thinking about transferring up, take a year off, dominate the LSAT and apply to schools you really want to go to. Paying sticker at any of these schools is, to put it mildly, a pretty bad investment.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:20 pm

Search TLS boards for knowledge on transferring...it sounds great and all, but realize the odds are highly stacked against you.

With your choices, Temple is far and away the best one. But is there absolutely no circumstances you could take a year off and retake the LSAT? I'm going out on a limb and saying you didn't break 160. If you did, I'm shocked you didn't get scholarship offers from anyone. But anyways, its unfortunate but none of those schools will give you a chance at biglaw, which is the only really feasible way to comfortably pay off the loans you will be accumulating. Think long and hard about how you will pay off your debt. Use mortgage/debt calculators to see how much you will need to realistically make to live comfortably. If all those things check out, and in the interest of staying on topic, go with Temple.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:26 pm

Even PT at Temple? I don't need to transfer (but I think the majority of 0Ls would be lying if they said they haven't at least considered it), and it seems like there are some pretty good firms in Pittsburgh, not to mention Philly. You're saying I've got very little chance at V100?

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:28 pm

Also consider taxation/LLM afterward..

TheFactor
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby TheFactor » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:31 pm

incase2011 wrote:Even PT at Temple? I don't need to transfer (but I think the majority of 0Ls would be lying if they said they haven't at least considered it), and it seems like there are some pretty good firms in Pittsburgh, not to mention Philly. You're saying I've got very little chance at V100?

Traditionally, between 10-16% get NLJ250, which is much less exclusive than V100. If you want any shot at biglaw from Temple ITE, you'll need to be top 10% - and even then it won't be guaranteed. Temple grads have other decent options in Philly, but nothing other than biglaw is going to be enough to pay off the debt you'll accumulate at sticker.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:48 pm

TheFactor wrote:
incase2011 wrote:Even PT at Temple? I don't need to transfer (but I think the majority of 0Ls would be lying if they said they haven't at least considered it), and it seems like there are some pretty good firms in Pittsburgh, not to mention Philly. You're saying I've got very little chance at V100?

Traditionally, between 10-16% get NLJ250, which is much less exclusive than V100. If you want any shot at biglaw from Temple ITE, you'll need to be top 10% - and even then it won't be guaranteed. Temple grads have other decent options in Philly, but nothing other than biglaw is going to be enough to pay off the debt you'll accumulate at sticker.


This is 100% correct. I swear you can say this countless times and it just never gets through to some people (not directed at OP at all, just a minor annoyance of mine).

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:10 pm

Haha, I think it's hard for people to overcome the excitement of a LS acceptance (even at a school that's not necessarily their first choice) with the realities of paying for it. It's infinitely easier to send in an app with the best possible scenario at that school in mind. Than it is to weigh the realities of actually getting decent grades at that school at sticker, or with few loans, etc., as well as the job prospects afterward.

In my case, I may have some potential job prospects up my sleeve (not to be "that guy", it's not at all certain), but I'm weighing in this potential as well. Otherwise, I'd be applying next cycle in a second - as it is, I applied late, which is extremely frustrating for a TLS poster, to say the least lol (as it should be; that's the point of this site - good advice).

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patrickd139
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:14 pm

incase2011 wrote:Also consider taxation/LLM afterward..

Doing this is almost as bad an idea as assuming you'll be able to transfer. Maybe worse in that getting your llm in tax requires the assumption that you'll do well in tax classes. How can you possibly assume that as an 0L, before you know if you're even capable of doing well on a law school exam in the first place?

If you want to work in the taxation industry and you know this right now, I would suggest going to an MPA or MSAcc program. It's a helluva lot cheaper, faster and overall a more stable career path.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:15 pm

Good self-awareness. You'll be fine, best of luck. Like I said, Temple is far and away the best choice for what you want, but pleaseeeeeeee consider taking a year off lol.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:42 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
incase2011 wrote:Also consider taxation/LLM afterward..

Doing this is almost as bad an idea as assuming you'll be able to transfer. Maybe worse in that getting your llm in tax requires the assumption that you'll do well in tax classes. How can you possibly assume that as an 0L, before you know if you're even capable of doing well on a law school exam in the first place?

If you want to work in the taxation industry and you know this right now, I would suggest going to an MPA or MSAcc program. It's a helluva lot cheaper, faster and overall a more stable career path.


Good advice, I guess I haven't run across a lot of LLM talk. It's something that I've considered if I like tax.

FeelTheHeat wrote:Good self-awareness. You'll be fine, best of luck. Like I said, Temple is far and away the best choice for what you want, but pleaseeeeeeee consider taking a year off lol.


Thanks for the advice also, I primarily wasn't sure about the Pitt/Temple comparison.

Also, I've heard it enough on here... I finally decided to do a loan and salary calculation. With a $200,000 loan at 6.8% interest (do student loans generally have a higher percentage? I'm not sure) a $60,000 job would give you about $1,600 a month, after taxes, to live on for 10 years haha, assuming you don't receive any bonuses and your salary doesn't change. I used PA for tax considerations.

That's pretty tight - I would shoot for at least $80,000 a year with the potential for bonuses and salary increases to make it worth it. Still, my significant other is gonna have to work is all I'm going to say lol.

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Wholigan
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Wholigan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:51 pm

incase2011 wrote:Also, I've heard it enough on here... I finally decided to do a loan and salary calculation. With a $200,000 loan at 6.8% interest (do student loans generally have a higher percentage? I'm not sure) a $60,000 job would give you about $1,600 a month, after taxes, to live on for 10 years haha, assuming you don't receive any bonuses and your salary doesn't change. I used PA for tax considerations.

That's pretty tight - I would shoot for at least $80,000 a year with the potential for bonuses and salary increases to make it worth it. Still, my significant other is gonna have to work is all I'm going to say lol.


Do not take out $200,000 in loans to go to Temple. Please. Just don't.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Also patrickd, what are these programs you're talking about (I'm trying to look them up without a lot of luck). I'm not too proud to admit I have no idea what you're talking about haha. What kind of career are you talking about?

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:01 pm

$200,000 seems like the standard number I see thrown around - maybe I should make another topic called "I actually took everyone's advice and calculated my realistic net income after taxes and loan payments." Anyone heard of a thread like that? I feel like that should be on here if only for snide linking purposes ;p

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Wholigan
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Wholigan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:04 pm

incase2011 wrote:$200,000 seems like the standard number I see thrown around - maybe I should make another topic called "I actually took everyone's advice and calculated my realistic net income after taxes and loan payments." Anyone heard of a thread like that? I feel like that should be on here if only for snide linking purposes ;p


Good, because hopefully it doesn't cost that much at Temple, even at sticker. If you are strongly considering Pitt or Temple, why don't you establish residency in PA now and apply for next cycle? Even if you can't get your LSAT up and get any money, if you have residency for a year before enrolling, you will probably save about $40,000 since you'll be considered in-state.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:17 pm

Looks like about half a year for residency in PA. I wonder if that means I could get instate for the second semester. As a PT student at Temple, I would probably just go and be done with it (try to find a job asap before school starts), but you make a good point for Pitt.

Do people consider earning potential before retirement when they tell others to wait? I have very little potential to make more than, liberally, $40,000 a year without a degree from somewhere (I'm looking at you patrickd lol). Granted, lessening the amount of debt incurred is important and should be factored in. But if you can top out at let's say $100,000per after 20 years of work... aren't you going to want those years?

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:30 pm

I seriously want to know what the four people who picked Miami are thinking other than that they are crushed under a mountain of debt and misery loves company.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Bill Cosby » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:10 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:I seriously want to know what the four people who picked Miami are thinking other than that they are crushed under a mountain of debt and misery loves company.


Probably saw "FL resident" and assumed Miami was a state school, therefore in-state tuition.

Or they're morons.

Actually, that's redundant.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:13 pm

I keep hearing about the horrible job prospects out of Miami... I'm glad I started this thread. Thank you everyone (especially feeltheheat) - I've got a sense of what I need to do.

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Wholigan
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Wholigan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:24 pm

incase2011 wrote:Looks like about half a year for residency in PA. I wonder if that means I could get instate for the second semester.


I don't think you understand what I am saying. You want to establish residency so you get in-state status right from enrollment. As far as I know, the only way to guarantee that is to be domiciled in PA for a year prior to classes starting. There is no way they will give you PA resident status starting in the second semester. And if you don't start out with it, you might never get it. I wouldn't advocate that if you were going to blanket the country with applications, but it seems like you have an interest in being in PA, so it might not be a bad idea in your case. See this link that I have posted in a different thread before:

http://www.temple.edu/registrar/documen ... cation.pdf

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patrickd139
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:02 pm

incase2011 wrote:Also patrickd, what are these programs you're talking about (I'm trying to look them up without a lot of luck). I'm not too proud to admit I have no idea what you're talking about haha. What kind of career are you talking about?

I'll take your questions in reverse order.

Career: an MPA will allow you to do two things. First, you'll be qualified in most states to sit for the CPA exam. Becoming a CPA has lots of immediate advantages and career opportunities. You could join a tax consulting group at a Big4 firm (or smaller firm), lobby, or work as a CPA in all the normal capacities. If you decide it's terrible and you hate it, you'll have some serious work experience in a relevant corporate area. At that point, go to law school. Having your CPA is a huge signaler for firms if you decide you want to do tax after law school.

The programs:
Texas MPA is widely considered the best. If you're a Texas resident, it's criminally cheap.
UIUC has both an MS-Tax and an MS-Accounting program I would check out.
Michigan's MSAcc. is also highly regarded.

That should get you started. I'm too lazy to cut and paste the other links, but if you're competent on the interwebz, you should have no problems finding them. Feel free to PM me if you've got any other questions!

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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Chants » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Bill Cosby wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:I seriously want to know what the four people who picked Miami are thinking other than that they are crushed under a mountain of debt and misery loves company.


Probably saw "FL resident" and assumed Miami was a state school, therefore in-state tuition.

Or they're morons.

Actually, that's redundant.



The cost at Miami is always referenced. I understand why a school at 35k-40k/yr outside the T14 isn't the best investment, but I am curious as to why Miami is always the school referenced in this scenario on TLS? Penn St. is 33k with the same if not worse job prospects. Why is Miami at sticker any worse than PSU, Case Western, American, Tulane, Pepperdine, Cardozo, San Diego, Baylor, or any other private school in the 30-80 range?

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:38 pm

Wholigan wrote:
incase2011 wrote:Looks like about half a year for residency in PA. I wonder if that means I could get instate for the second semester.


I don't think you understand what I am saying. You want to establish residency so you get in-state status right from enrollment. As far as I know, the only way to guarantee that is to be domiciled in PA for a year prior to classes starting. There is no way they will give you PA resident status starting in the second semester. And if you don't start out with it, you might never get it. I wouldn't advocate that if you were going to blanket the country with applications, but it seems like you have an interest in being in PA, so it might not be a bad idea in your case. See this link that I have posted in a different thread before:

http://www.temple.edu/registrar/documen ... cation.pdf


I definitely was confused. I didn't consider the school's policy, just the state's.

patrickd139 wrote:
incase2011 wrote:Also patrickd, what are these programs you're talking about (I'm trying to look them up without a lot of luck). I'm not too proud to admit I have no idea what you're talking about haha. What kind of career are you talking about?

I'll take your questions in reverse order.

Career: an MPA will allow you to do two things. First, you'll be qualified in most states to sit for the CPA exam. Becoming a CPA has lots of immediate advantages and career opportunities. You could join a tax consulting group at a Big4 firm (or smaller firm), lobby, or work as a CPA in all the normal capacities. If you decide it's terrible and you hate it, you'll have some serious work experience in a relevant corporate area. At that point, go to law school. Having your CPA is a huge signaler for firms if you decide you want to do tax after law school.

The programs:
Texas MPA is widely considered the best. If you're a Texas resident, it's criminally cheap.
UIUC has both an MS-Tax and an MS-Accounting program I would check out.
Michigan's MSAcc. is also highly regarded.

That should get you started. I'm too lazy to cut and paste the other links, but if you're competent on the interwebz, you should have no problems finding them. Feel free to PM me if you've got any other questions!


Thanks for taking the time patrickd. I'm a little slow MPA = Masters of Professional Accounting haha. I've considered a CPA to a certain extent, but maybe it's time to take a second look. I'll PM you to ask about getting into these masters programs.

I still have a few schools to hear back from, but I needed this thread for seat deposit consideration. Hopefully, I can vie for a scholarship with a solid acceptance at one of these schools.

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incase2011
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby incase2011 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:42 pm

Chants wrote:
Bill Cosby wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:I seriously want to know what the four people who picked Miami are thinking other than that they are crushed under a mountain of debt and misery loves company.


Probably saw "FL resident" and assumed Miami was a state school, therefore in-state tuition.

Or they're morons.

Actually, that's redundant.



The cost at Miami is always referenced. I understand why a school at 35k-40k/yr outside the T14 isn't the best investment, but I am curious as to why Miami is always the school referenced in this scenario on TLS? Penn St. is 33k with the same if not worse job prospects. Why is Miami at sticker any worse than PSU, Case Western, American, Tulane, Pepperdine, Cardozo, San Diego, Baylor, or any other private school in the 30-80 range?


I can actually answer this question myself (FL resident; just read a long Florida school related thread). Miami is an expensive city. Cost of living near campus is very high. I somewhat disagree. I think you can figure out a cheap living situation in Miami, but in general, it's an expensive city compared to the middle of nowhere PA (Penn State).

Btw, are you chants on LSN? We have similar numbers if I remember correctly.

Chants
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Re: All Sticker: UMiami v Temple (PT) v Pitt v Penn State

Postby Chants » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:48 pm

incase2011 wrote:
Chants wrote:
Bill Cosby wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:I seriously want to know what the four people who picked Miami are thinking other than that they are crushed under a mountain of debt and misery loves company.


Probably saw "FL resident" and assumed Miami was a state school, therefore in-state tuition.

Or they're morons.

Actually, that's redundant.



The cost at Miami is always referenced. I understand why a school at 35k-40k/yr outside the T14 isn't the best investment, but I am curious as to why Miami is always the school referenced in this scenario on TLS? Penn St. is 33k with the same if not worse job prospects. Why is Miami at sticker any worse than PSU, Case Western, American, Tulane, Pepperdine, Cardozo, San Diego, Baylor, or any other private school in the 30-80 range?


I can actually answer this question myself (FL resident; just read a long Florida school related thread). Miami is an expensive city. Cost of living near campus is very high. I somewhat disagree. I think you can figure out a cheap living situation in Miami, but in general, it's an expensive city compared to the middle of nowhere PA (Penn State).

Btw, are you chants on LSN? We have similar numbers if I remember correctly.



Yup, on LSN- same username.

I am not pro nor anti Miami. I am just curious why I always see Miami referenced as the "holy shit don't go there at sticker" LS when it seems to be in good company in terms of tuiton vs. job prospects.




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