Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

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Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Vandy at 72k
59
52%
UVA Sticker
49
43%
Cornell Sticker
5
4%
 
Total votes: 113

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drylo
Posts: 291
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:42 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:drylo: My out-of-pocket figure includes total costs, not just tuition.

Cornell's figures last year were an anomaly. Another poster compiled NLJ 3 year average placement statistics for the NLJ largest 250 law firms & Cornell placed 5th & Vanderbilt 14th. Virginia placed 8th.

3 Year NLJ 250 Placement Averages (as compiled & posted by another TLS poster):

1) Chicago 60.22
2) Columbia 60.03
3) Penn 57.27
4) Northwestern 54.39
5) Cornell 53.94

6) NYU 52.92
7) Berkeley 52.74
8) Virginia 52.36
9) Harvard 51.61
10) Stanford 50.67

11) Duke 49.88
12) Michigan 49.49
13) Georgetown 43.13

14) Vanderbilt 40.50

15) USC 39.21
16) BC 37.99
17) UCLA 37.81
18) BU 35.27
19) GWU 33.29
20) Fordham 32.93


Well, if last year's were an anomaly, this year's were even more of an anomaly. Any three-year figure that includes the Class of 2010 is going to be heavily impacted (between Vandy and Cornell) by these latest figures. Regardless, even if we accepted that three-year average as a true measure of NLJ 250 placement (and ignored the self-selection differences between the two schools), it does not even come close to your assertion that Cornell gives you twice as good a chance to get a biglaw job.

And even if you based it on Vandy's cost of attendance numbers, $140k is still too high. Plus, the cost of attendance figures that schools provide are not that valuable (they are only there to give you an amount that you can take out in loans for "school")--just compare the allowances that Vandy and Cornell make, for instance. The point is that Cornell tuition is $8-9k more per year than Vandy's... and that $140k is very high, if you are only paying $21k in tuition per year.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:45 pm

drylo: We just disagree as to how much increased biglaw & other career opportunities are worth. My assertion that opportunities were twice as good at Cornell over Vandy were based on just the most recently released Nat'l Law Journal's Go-To-Law-Schools placement rankings.

My figures for three years attendance at Vanderbilt are reasonable based on total costs. Total cost of attendance is likely to increase each year by 3% or 4%. Total cost of attendance at Vanderbilt should average out to $70,000 or a bit more per year for the next 3 years.

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drylo
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:01 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:drylo: We just disagree as to how much increased biglaw & other career opportunities are worth.

My figures for three years attendance at Vanderbilt are reasonable based on total costs. Tuition is likely to increase each year by 3% or 4% plus cost of living & books. Total cost of attendance at Vanderbilt should average out to $70,000 or a bit more per year for the next 3 years.


We might disagree, but you are also creating a false reality. You said, upthread:

CanadianWolf wrote:Twice the chance of a biglaw position from Cornell than Vandy is worth more than saving $72,000 now.


(1) Placement: People go to Cornell because they want to practice in NY. People go to Vandy to do all sorts of things. There are a fair number of people here who do well in school but do not want to go practice in a large law firm or a major market. Notwithstanding that significant difference between the schools/student bodies, and notwithstanding the inclusion of stats from one of the most all-around anomalous years ever in legal hiring (which favored Cornell in the NLJ 250 metric), the three-year average you posted gave Cornell about 1.33x the NLJ placement (not placement power) of Vandy... not "twice the chance of a biglaw position."

(2) Cost: Taking a $72k scholarship at Vandy will save you more than $72k, versus no scholarship at Cornell. That is indisputable. While the nominal value of the scholarship is $24k/year, you are actually getting to go to school for $32k+ less per year than if you went to Cornell (not including cost-of-living differences, which are likely to favor Vandy as well).

CanadianWolf
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:28 pm

We just disagree. My opinion is that either Virginia or Cornell is worth more at sticker (even though OP doesn't know yet if Cornell will offer money) than Vanderbilt with a $24,000 a year scholarship. I think Virginia & Cornell are a better investment in OP's situation. Reasonable people can disagree.

Based on the current NLJ figures, Cornell's 58% placement in the NLJ 250 is twice as much as Vanderbilt's 29%. Taking the 3 year average, Cornell is still the better investment, in my opinion, as is Virginia.

In the context of this thread, OP has made fairly clear his reasons for considering these law schools.

drylo: You are a Vanderbilt Law student on a very substantial (3 years of full tuition) scholarship & I respect your opinion & decision for you. Had the OP been offered $145,000 from Vanderbilt, rather than $72,000, then I would probably offer different advice.

total_loss
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby total_loss » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:41 pm

useruser wrote:Do not have a lot of experience elsewhere, but I dont think I'd like the South. I am also somewhat apprehensive of 3 years in the South if I go to Vandy.


OP, I'm interested to know what region of the country you think the state of Virginia is in.

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drylo
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:27 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:We just disagree. My opinion is that either Virginia or Cornell is worth more at sticker (even though OP doesn't know yet if Cornell will offer money) than Vanderbilt with a $24,000 a year scholarship. I think Virginia & Cornell are a better investment in OP's situation. Reasonable people can disagree.

Based on the current NLJ figures, Cornell's 58% placement in the NLJ 250 is twice as much as Vanderbilt's 29%. Taking the 3 year average, Cornell is still the better investment, in my opinion, as is Virginia.

In the context of this thread, OP has made fairly clear his reasons for considering these law schools.

drylo: You are a Vanderbilt Law student on a very substantial (3 years of full tuition) scholarship & I respect your opinion & decision for you. Had the OP been offered $145,000 from Vanderbilt, rather than $72,000, then I would probably offer different advice.


Alright, it looks like our little argument has run its course. Reasonable people definitely do disagree all the time, especially about decisions as personal as where to go to law school. My only frustration was that you were (are?) stretching the facts. In the face of indisputable numbers about tuition cost, you appear determined to downplay OP's scholarship at Vandy.

FWIW, the three-year averages for the classes of 2007, 2008, and 2009 are as follows (using estimates from the graphs for class of 08):
Cornell: 51.8
Vanderbilt: 44.9

CanadianWolf
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:58 pm

drylo: Not stretching the facts. I feel that you are misrepresenting the facts regarding total cost of attendance at Vanderbilt & the NLJ figures because you cleverly left out the 2010 figures which greatly widen the disparity between Cornell & Vanderbilt. Nice try. Do you work for Vandy admissions ? The most recent 3 year NLJ 250 placement averages are Cornell 53.94 % & Vanderbilt 40.50%.

Judging from your lawschoolnumbers profile, you & I will rarely agree. According to your profile, you turned down Harvard & a $125,000 scholarship at Virginia for Vanderbilt with $145,000 scholarship. Without knowing more, this seems to be an unusual choice. In a poll, without more info., Vandy would likely finish third among Harvard, Virginia with $125,000 or Vanderbilt with $145,000. But choices are not made in a vacuum.

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drylo
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:drylo: Not stretching the facts. I feel that you are misrepresenting the facts regarding total cost of attendance & the NLJ figures because you cleverly left out the 2010 figures which greatly widen the disparity between Cornell & Vanderbilt. Nice try. Do you work for Vandy admissions ? The most recent 3 year NLJ 250 placement averages are Cornell 53.94 % & Vanderbilt 40.50%.


Look, I'm not trying to hide the fact that the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers show Cornell performing very well. I'm trying to help focus on numbers that are not seriously skewed by a number of variables related to an economic disaster of unusual (to say the least) proportions. If you go to Cornell believing that you have twice as good a chance at a biglaw position than at Vandy, you are making a seriously misinformed decision. That's all.

And I don't know how it is "misrepresenting the facts" to point out that Cornell's tuition is $8k+/year more than Vandy's.

BTW, I have not voted in OP's poll. I am usually hesitant to do so because there are way too many personal variables that can and should go into the law school decision.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:11 pm

drylo: Yes, you did hide the actual numbers & falsely accused me of misrepresenting numbers when, in fact, it is you that "played with" the numbers to bolster your position. Nice try, again.

You misrepresented the total cost of attendance for 3 years at Vanderbilt by falsely accusing me of the same.

The OP stated his relevant variables (concerns relevant to him) when seeking advice.

drylo: Your decision to select Vanderbilt over Harvard & Virginia with a substantial scholarship must have been difficult & it is clearly unusual, but that doesn't mean that it's the best decision for others. It does, however, explain--at least in part--your zeal in promoting Vanderbilt.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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drylo
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:17 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:drylo: Yes, you did hide the actual numbers & falsely accused me of misrepresenting numbers when, in fact, it is you that "played with" the numbers to bolster your position. Nice try, again.

You misrepresented the total cost of attendance for 3 years at Vanderbilt by falsely accusing me of the same.


OK I give up. You took the NLJ numbers from one year (a crazy and totally anomalous year in legal hiring) and extrapolated that the list of where people actually ended up in that one year represents where students at those schools have the opportunity to work in normal years in the future.

But as a parting shot, I give all interested parties the links to costs (hint: look at the line items and use your head--don't just look at the total at the bottom):

http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... _JUMP_2290

CanadianWolf wrote:drylo: Your decision to select Vanderbilt over Harvard & Virginia with a substantial scholarship must have been difficult & it is clearly unusual, but that doesn't mean that it's the best decision for others. It does, however, explain--at least in part--your zeal in promoting Vanderbilt.


I never said that Vanderbilt was the best decision for OP. I am not promoting Vanderbilt vis-a-vis UVA in this thread at all. I am saying that your posts are misleading. I would also say that $72k at Vandy is generally a better choice than Cornell at sticker, subject to a myriad of complicating personal factors--but that's not even what we have been arguing about.
Last edited by drylo on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:18 pm

I used the most recent--and, therefore, most relevant--NLJ 250 placement numbers as compiled & posted by another TLS poster. That is what is meant by "3 year average".

And I find your posts to be intentionally misleading. And Cornell & Virginia at sticker remain, in my opinion, better values employment wise than Vanderbilt with a $24,000 a year scholarship based on the most recent 3 year average of the NLJ 250 placement figures. And I am not emotionally involved as you seem to be, albeit understandably. I've revealed your misleading figures regarding total cost of attendance for 3 years at Vandy & your manipulation of the NLJ figures to paint Vandy in a more positive light. I also question anyone's judgment who selects Vanderbilt over Harvard & Virginia w/scholarship without compelling reasons.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby Alex-Trof » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:32 am

total_loss wrote:
useruser wrote:Do not have a lot of experience elsewhere, but I dont think I'd like the South. I am also somewhat apprehensive of 3 years in the South if I go to Vandy.


OP, I'm interested to know what region of the country you think the state of Virginia is in.


You can think of Virginia as the South geographically, but it does not have the southern feel as much as states like Tennessee. Southern culture is well represented there, but it is in no way dominant. Majority of Virginians that I know of would definitely lump themselves with the people from Northeast rather than with the people from the South.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby pleasetryagain » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:47 am

Alex-Trof wrote:
total_loss wrote:
useruser wrote:Do not have a lot of experience elsewhere, but I dont think I'd like the South. I am also somewhat apprehensive of 3 years in the South if I go to Vandy.


OP, I'm interested to know what region of the country you think the state of Virginia is in.


You can think of Virginia as the South geographically, but it does not have the southern feel as much as states like Tennessee. Southern culture is well represented there, but it is in no way dominant. Majority of Virginians that I know of would definitely lump themselves with the people from Northeast rather than with the people from the South.


Have you ever been to Virginia? In the northern-most parts of Va near DC it doesn't have as much a southern feel but the rest of Virginia makes Nashville look/feel like Manhattan.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Vandy-72k v UVA sticker

Postby Alex-Trof » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:25 am

pleasetryagain wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:
total_loss wrote:
useruser wrote:Do not have a lot of experience elsewhere, but I dont think I'd like the South. I am also somewhat apprehensive of 3 years in the South if I go to Vandy.


OP, I'm interested to know what region of the country you think the state of Virginia is in.


You can think of Virginia as the South geographically, but it does not have the southern feel as much as states like Tennessee. Southern culture is well represented there, but it is in no way dominant. Majority of Virginians that I know of would definitely lump themselves with the people from Northeast rather than with the people from the South.


Have you ever been to Virginia? In the northern-most parts of Va near DC it doesn't have as much a southern feel but the rest of Virginia makes Nashville look/feel like Manhattan.


I lived in Richmond for a bit. I also visited Memphis and Nashville (Memphis mostly). Still stand by my assertion.




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