Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

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chasgoose
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Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby chasgoose » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:27 am

I know there is another thread about this, but I wanted one more particular to my interests. Basically I visited both this weekend and I left feeling totally pro NYU. That said, there are a couple things keeping me interested in Columbia. First, if I had to pick a field of interest in law, it would be IP Arts/Digital Policy stuff for which Columbia might have the best faculty in the nation. Also, I am very intrigued by their new Educational Reform clinic/center. Finally there is the obvious prestige factor (although I already went to a better Ivy than Columbia for undergrad so that is less of a concern for me). Aside from that, everything else is telling me that I would be happier at NYU and that it is the better fit (Columbia felt so cold and stagnant), but those three concerns keep me coming back to Columbia. I know I have nothing really to complain about and either choice will be a good one, but it is kind of an important decision and it feels incredibly difficult to make...

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thunderflesh
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby thunderflesh » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:30 am

I'm deciding between NYU and Columbia too, and while I'm probably going to pick CLS, my reasoning applies to you too:

I'm skeptical that there is a significant number of jobs that a CLS grad could get that an NYU grad could not, and vice versa. They're both great schools in a great city.

I would say, if one school or the other will be better for you financially for some reason, go there. Otherwise, go where you think you'll be happiest.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Renzo » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:50 am

chasgoose wrote:Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?


I did, so I don't think so. You're considering the right things, so it's really going to come down to your preference.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:22 pm

I also made this choice, and lots of people make the same decision every year. I think that is pretty strong evidence that it's not objectively stupid. FWIW, I ended up at NYU based largely on a feeling about the intangibles that's similar to what you're describing, though I also didn't have a strong substantive reason to prefer CLS as it sounds you might.

bhan87
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby bhan87 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:23 pm

You can't really make a wrong choice between the two. Go where you think you'll be happier at.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:28 pm

Anyone who uses the phrase "...I already went to a better Ivy for undergrad than Columbia" is most likely going to end up at the higher ranked law school despite any offered advice.

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Knock
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Knock » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:30 pm

chasgoose wrote:I know there is another thread about this, but I wanted one more particular to my interests. Basically I visited both this weekend and I left feeling totally pro NYU. That said, there are a couple things keeping me interested in Columbia. First, if I had to pick a field of interest in law, it would be IP Arts/Digital Policy stuff for which Columbia might have the best faculty in the nation. Also, I am very intrigued by their new Educational Reform clinic/center. Finally there is the obvious prestige factor (although I already went to a better Ivy than Columbia for undergrad so that is less of a concern for me). Aside from that, everything else is telling me that I would be happier at NYU and that it is the better fit (Columbia felt so cold and stagnant), but those three concerns keep me coming back to Columbia. I know I have nothing really to complain about and either choice will be a good one, but it is kind of an important decision and it feels incredibly difficult to make...


Not at all. Rankings, especially such tiny differences such as 4 to 6 (NYU was 5 last year; and new rankings come out in a week anyways), shouldn't be the sole reason for your decision. If you prefer NYU, go there. You'll likely be happier, and that will help you perform your best.

FiveSermon
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:32 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Anyone who uses the phrase "...I already went to a better Ivy for undergrad than Columbia" is most likely going to end up at the higher ranked law school despite any offered advice.


+1

Also no it's not dumb. NYU and Columbia are peer schools. It's more about personal preference and how much $ you will be getting rather than true gaps in academics or placement.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:35 pm

Unless tied, we should know the answer on March 15th.

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Non-Chalant1
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:42 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Anyone who uses the phrase "...I already went to a better Ivy for undergrad than Columbia" is most likely going to end up at the higher ranked law school despite any offered advice.


+1

Also no it's not dumb. NYU and Columbia are peer schools. It's more about personal preference and how much $ you will be getting rather than true gaps in academics or placement.

This where I disagree as someone who is making the same choice as of right now. It seems that Columbia has better nationwide placement and places better into government positions from what I've seen....despite all this stuff I'm hearing about NYU's PI. I could be wrong and they both have incredible faculties, but it just seems like if you're sure you want NYC or the East Coast (which I actually do) then it's a fair choice. But nationwide I believe Columbia a better choice, I mean the California Society looks to be the biggest group on campus at CLS. Not sure about NYU (I'm sure they have a bunch of West Coast and Midwest people)...just making the observation.

They both have incredible clinics though. NYU's might even be better.

chasgoose
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby chasgoose » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:45 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Anyone who uses the phrase "...I already went to a better Ivy for undergrad than Columbia" is most likely going to end up at the higher ranked law school despite any offered advice.


First, I get that it was an obnoxious title, I just wanted to grab attention. I understand that NYU would not be "stupid."

Also I get that the quote above was also douchey, it was early in the morning (and FWIW I didn't go to the top ranked undergrad I got into, but that seems less of a big deal) and I understand the rankings are basically the same. That said, yes, I am a bit of a snob and I would be lying if I said that prestige wasn't a big deal to me, but as far as I can tell, the prestige of Columbia is only slightly better than that of NYU.

My larger concern is that Columbia does seem to have better faculty/programs/other stuff in two specific areas that interest me. That said, everything else about NYU seems a lot better fit and who knows if I end up really pursuing those areas of interest once I get to law school. From an objective perspective, if I knew for sure IP Arts/Digital Policy was my definite interest of study and that I was going to study it I would probably pick Columbia, but since it's only something I am interested in right now, its not quite as compelling of a reason as it could be. Basically do I go with NYU which seems better in most other fields, facilities, and overall environment and energy (it still seems to have very good programs in my areas of interest) and risk regretting not having the IP faculty of Columbia? Or do I go to Columbia and have the IP faculty (which potentially might not even be my big interest two years from now when I actually get to pick classes) and risk not being as happy as I think I might be at NYU. I mean it seems like barring money from either school that NYU is probably the best bet, but I still have nagging doubts (I agonize over decisions too much for my own good).

Also, as far as rep goes, I get the distinct impression that yes Columbia plays better nationally and with older people, but NYU has an up-and-coming reputation that seems to be fairly equal in NYC and perhaps even better (a family friend not connected to law, but connected to big NYC society circles seemed to think it would be a no-brainer to choose NYU over Columbia based on what her friends were saying about it). Since I probably want to end up in NYC, the comparative strengths of Columbia/NYU rankings really won't make that much of a difference.

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Non-Chalant1
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:54 pm

NYU has a great rep in NYC and a family friend was very enthusiastic about it as well. But let's be serious. Outside of NYC, Columbia places better in virtually every other market. Now for someone as East Coast-oriented as me, that doesn't mean much. But you're talking IP and when I hear that I think Silicon Valley...it's the only reason I brought it up. I have yet to decide either way myself. The ASW will make the choice for me probably.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby twistedwrister » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:58 pm

NYU and CLS have essentially the same employment breakdown by region:

NYU: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/employmentstatistics/location/index.htm
CLS: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/career_services/admitted

About the same % of each school stays in NY, about the same % goes to CA, etc.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:59 pm

Your degree from Brown aside, I was just trying to add a little humor with a semblance of truth to your situation. In my opinion, both are great options & only you should make the choice based on your impressions in light of your career goals after visiting both.

chasgoose
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby chasgoose » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:05 pm

Non-Chalant1 wrote:NYU has a great rep in NYC and a family friend was very enthusiastic about it as well. But let's be serious. Outside of NYC, Columbia places better in virtually every other market. Now for someone as East Coast-oriented as me, that doesn't mean much. But you're talking IP and when I hear that I think Silicon Valley...it's the only reason I brought it up. I have yet to decide either way myself. The ASW will make the choice for me probably.


Yeah, I mean I probably won't be doing Silicon Valley type IP (I'm more into like copyright and trademark which is mostly NYC/LA). Also, I probably would only be interested in either LA/NYC markets as outside of NYC where you don't really need ties, I have lived in LA for three years (and really loved it) so at this point I can't see myself anywhere else besides those two cities. From what I can tell, there is a negligible difference between the two for NYC/LA so yeah it probably won't matter.

This reminds of a book or article I read called The Tyranny of Choice that basically says those who don't have an option are generally happier with whatever they end up with than those are given a choice. My big fear is that no matter which school I choose, the grass will always be greener on the other side. I probably would still rather have the choice (and I realize I am sounding like a jerk again) but for someone as neurotic as I am, there is a downside.
Last edited by chasgoose on Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Non-Chalant1
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:17 pm

twistedwrister wrote:NYU and CLS have essentially the same employment breakdown by region:

NYU: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/employmentstatistics/location/index.htm
CLS: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/career_services/admitted

About the same % of each school stays in NY, about the same % goes to CA, etc.

Did you really just compare 2008 (NYU) and 2009 data (CLS)? Secondly, you compared summer employment to graduation employment percentages. Unless you wanted me to look at 2007 and prior which no one will do with this economy. Now if you're attempting to paint a picture of historical trends then you have an argument. That's interesting though because even students from NYU told me that CLS is better for California...though he graduated back in 08 (which you posted). I gotta go scroll through those olds threads again because I didn't think it was even debatable...not that I care. I'm NYC/DC leaning completely.


But if the OP has ties, can't argue with either choice then.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby twistedwrister » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:38 pm

Non-Chalant1 wrote:Did you really just compare 2008 (NYU) and 2009 data (CLS)? Secondly, you compared summer employment to graduation employment percentages. Unless you wanted me to look at 2007 and prior which no one will do with this economy. Now if you're attempting to paint a picture of historical trends then you have an argument. That's interesting though because even students from NYU told me that CLS is better for California...though he graduated back in 08 (which you posted). I gotta go scroll through those olds threads again because I didn't think it was even debatable...not that I care. I'm NYC/DC leaning completely.

But if the OP has ties, can't argue with either choice then.


The data I linked to shows that NYU typically sends 10-12% of its students to CA, and 12% of CLS' class of 2009 went to the "Pacific" region, which includes CA. I guess 2009 might have been a "down year" for CLS students going to CA, but I don't know why that would be true. If you don't like that data, look at LSAC's data (https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/OfficialGuide_Default.aspx). 66% of CLS students and 69% of NYU students stayed in NY. Like I said, the difference is negligible.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:27 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
Non-Chalant1 wrote:Did you really just compare 2008 (NYU) and 2009 data (CLS)? Secondly, you compared summer employment to graduation employment percentages. Unless you wanted me to look at 2007 and prior which no one will do with this economy. Now if you're attempting to paint a picture of historical trends then you have an argument. That's interesting though because even students from NYU told me that CLS is better for California...though he graduated back in 08 (which you posted). I gotta go scroll through those olds threads again because I didn't think it was even debatable...not that I care. I'm NYC/DC leaning completely.

But if the OP has ties, can't argue with either choice then.


The data I linked to shows that NYU typically sends 10-12% of its students to CA, and 12% of CLS' class of 2009 went to the "Pacific" region, which includes CA. I guess 2009 might have been a "down year" for CLS students going to CA, but I don't know why that would be true. If you don't like that data, look at LSAC's data (https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/OfficialGuide_Default.aspx). 66% of CLS students and 69% of NYU students stayed in NY. Like I said, the difference is negligible.


When I screened the attorney lists for some big west coast firms, there were roughly an equal number of attorneys from both NYU and Columbia. I think I looked at Quinn, Mofo, Orrick, Cooley, and Gibson. Sonsini wasn't searchable by school. Not sure that number means terribly much, but there are equal numbers of Columbia and NYU people out there, at any rate.

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Non-Chalant1
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:46 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
Non-Chalant1 wrote:Did you really just compare 2008 (NYU) and 2009 data (CLS)? Secondly, you compared summer employment to graduation employment percentages. Unless you wanted me to look at 2007 and prior which no one will do with this economy. Now if you're attempting to paint a picture of historical trends then you have an argument. That's interesting though because even students from NYU told me that CLS is better for California...though he graduated back in 08 (which you posted). I gotta go scroll through those olds threads again because I didn't think it was even debatable...not that I care. I'm NYC/DC leaning completely.

But if the OP has ties, can't argue with either choice then.


The data I linked to shows that NYU typically sends 10-12% of its students to CA, and 12% of CLS' class of 2009 went to the "Pacific" region, which includes CA. I guess 2009 might have been a "down year" for CLS students going to CA, but I don't know why that would be true. If you don't like that data, look at LSAC's data (https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/OfficialGuide_Default.aspx). 66% of CLS students and 69% of NYU students stayed in NY. Like I said, the difference is negligible.

I was talking about from a difficulty perspective of actually getting in. I guess I can't quantify that and I'm only going off of what I've been told by an NYU student (who is in California right now). I never made an argument about percentages in NY. I don't even know what that number is supposed to mean to me. I said that in NYC that it was negligible if at all....in my very first post. I was speaking about the difficulty of getting into California out of NYU vs. California based on what I had read in the past and based on what I had been told from students from both schools. Obviously, most kids at CLS and NYU stay in NY...when haven't they?

I only brought up California because I was thinking Silicon Valley when he started talking IP. But OP is focused on LA so that's not as important based on what he said. For the record, NYU was/is (perhaps tied now) favorite law school coming into my cycle...I'd be the last person to bash it.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:40 pm

chasgoose wrote:Also, as far as rep goes, I get the distinct impression that yes Columbia plays better nationally and with older people, but NYU has an up-and-coming reputation that seems to be fairly equal in NYC and perhaps even better (a family friend not connected to law, but connected to big NYC society circles seemed to think it would be a no-brainer to choose NYU over Columbia based on what her friends were saying about it). Since I probably want to end up in NYC, the comparative strengths of Columbia/NYU rankings really won't make that much of a difference.


Sorry, I didn't read the entire thread before. You should just go wherever you're happier. Any differences between NYU and CLS, particularly in NYC, are too insubstantial to be a consideration. You should probably reach out to the faculty with whom you're interested in working (at both schools), and ask them. They very well may tell you that both schools would be fine.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby chasgoose » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:44 pm

ahduth wrote:
chasgoose wrote:Also, as far as rep goes, I get the distinct impression that yes Columbia plays better nationally and with older people, but NYU has an up-and-coming reputation that seems to be fairly equal in NYC and perhaps even better (a family friend not connected to law, but connected to big NYC society circles seemed to think it would be a no-brainer to choose NYU over Columbia based on what her friends were saying about it). Since I probably want to end up in NYC, the comparative strengths of Columbia/NYU rankings really won't make that much of a difference.


Sorry, I didn't read the entire thread before. You should just go wherever you're happier. Any differences between NYU and CLS, particularly in NYC, are too insubstantial to be a consideration. You should probably reach out to the faculty with whom you're interested in working (at both schools), and ask them. They very well may tell you that both schools would be fine.


Yeah, I think that might be the best idea. One of my problems too is that while I was at Columbia's ASW, I wasn't quite as mentally there as my sister who is a senior at Columbia took advantage of my presence to get me to run errands for her as she was in the middle of senior thesis hell. I should have said no, but it's hard to turn her down sometimes. I think after a week or so I will be able to more objectively process whether or not I like NYU more just because their ASW was better.

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Lisi
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Lisi » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:36 pm

I haven't heard from Columbia, but I'm in at NYU. If I do get into Columbia, I'll still choose NYU. For me, there are personal reasons (I've been at Columbia for 7 years in grad school, and I'm a little tired of Morningside Heights). Generally, from what I can tell knowing a few people at Columbia and NYU law schools, I think you're fine going to either one. I say this because I think they are probably less different academically/professionally than they are culturally. From what I can tell, they don't seem to have very similar cultures. If you visit one, you'll probably be able to visit the other (since they're both in NYC), and then you can pick the one where you think you will fit in better. Disclaimer: I'm older than the average prospective law student, so it's quite possible that culture and quality of life are more nuanced and important factors for me. I also rely on the feedback I have from friends who have gone to Harvard, NYU, Columbia in thinking about law school. These individual stories are more interesting to me because when I see the "outcome" of that person's education, I also know what kind of person they are, how much they apply themselves, how they respond to competition, etc. I get that people can analyze trends and statistics endlessly. But, you have to figure out where you are going to do your best work -- because, let's say Columbia has slightly better stats for placement in Big Law (which, let's say, is what you want to do), do you think that slight edge is going to help you if you're at a school where you aren't really flourishing in comparison to classmates who are?
On a side note, you might like Columbia because it's a bit removed from NYC. I have often reflected upon the fact that I could *never* have applied myself year after year to my field of study in grad school if, as a 20-some I walked out of my apartment to find myself in the middle of the village.
Please don't come down on me for this post. I just thought I'd interject a little bit of the personal side to discussions that can get weighed down in statistics. It reminds me of my friend who was convinced that she couldn't meet a man in NYC because we (women) are at such a statistical disadvantage.... as though each one of us should self-identify as simply a statistic.

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby 99.9luft » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:39 pm

Lisi wrote:I haven't heard from Columbia, but I'm in at NYU. If I do get into Columbia, I'll still choose NYU. For me, there are personal reasons (I've been at Columbia for 7 years in grad school, and I'm a little tired of Morningside Heights). Generally, from what I can tell knowing a few people at Columbia and NYU law schools, I think you're fine going to either one. I say this because I think they are probably less different academically/professionally than they are culturally. From what I can tell, they don't seem to have very similar cultures. If you visit one, you'll probably be able to visit the other (since they're both in NYC), and then you can pick the one where you think you will fit in better. Disclaimer: I'm older than the average prospective law student, so it's quite possible that culture and quality of life are more nuanced and important factors for me. I also rely on the feedback I have from friends who have gone to Harvard, NYU, Columbia in thinking about law school. These individual stories are more interesting to me because when I see the "outcome" of that person's education, I also know what kind of person they are, how much they apply themselves, how they respond to competition, etc. I get that people can analyze trends and statistics endlessly. But, you have to figure out where you are going to do your best work -- because, let's say Columbia has slightly better stats for placement in Big Law (which, let's say, is what you want to do), do you think that slight edge is going to help you if you're at a school where you aren't really flourishing in comparison to classmates who are?
On a side note, you might like Columbia because it's a bit removed from NYC. I have often reflected upon the fact that I could *never* have applied myself year after year to my field of study in grad school if, as a 20-some I walked out of my apartment to find myself in the middle of the village.
Please don't come down on me for this post. I just thought I'd interject a little bit of the personal side to discussions that can get weighed down in statistics. It reminds me of my friend who was convinced that she couldn't meet a man in NYC because we (women) are at such a statistical disadvantage.... as though each one of us should self-identify as simply a statistic.


Congrats. I want to be in your shoes next year (i'm far from a hipster and would take NYU any day over Columbia) :P

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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:41 pm

chasgoose wrote: It reminds me of my friend who was convinced that she couldn't meet a man in NYC because we (women) are at such a statistical disadvantage.... as though each one of us should self-identify as simply a statistic.


I didn't know that. So what is the ratio of women to men in NYC?

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Lisi
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Re: Would it be stupid to go to NYU over Columbia?

Postby Lisi » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:47 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
chasgoose wrote: It reminds me of my friend who was convinced that she couldn't meet a man in NYC because we (women) are at such a statistical disadvantage.... as though each one of us should self-identify as simply a statistic.


I didn't know that. So what is the ratio of women to men in NYC?


Well, I don't remember what her source was (I was too busy protesting!). But she also cited the fact that there are more gay men than gay women, which would make the situation seem even more grim. Here's a link a friend of mine sent me when we were both teaching Pride & Prejudice (because, you'll notice that it's "women go west" and not "men go east" -- women, of course, are still primarily husband-hunting :wink: ) :
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... cities/?hp
here's the earlier version (with a map): http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas ... _america/#

BTW, my friend who was so worried is now happily coupled-off.

ETA: sorry to take this thread off topic!




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