CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

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amorfati
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby amorfati » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:42 pm

For the record, NYU's Union Square gym (Palladium) might be smaller -- I'm not sure on that point -- but it's still pretty sizeable and, in my opinion, nicer. It's more modern, and it also has a pool and a rock climbing wall (or at least it did when I was in undergrad there). I hated the one at Mercer (Coles) -- it was pretty run-down. But if I were a law student there (which I might be soon - depends what happens with Columbia!), I would definitely be hitting up Coles more just for the sake of proximity.

Also, both gyms are definitely free to students. I don't remember any student activity fees, either, but I could be wrong on that point. Also, I wouldn't call them "off-campus" -- as far as NYU's "campus" goes, they're both on it. Coles is much closer to Washington Square, of course, which is where the law school and most of the main buildings are. Palladium is about a 10 to 15-minute walk from that area, but it's in one of the main dorms and close to several other NYU buildings (mostly undergrad dorms).

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Saul Goodman
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Saul Goodman » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:50 pm

Dramatic New LRAP Offers Chicago Law Graduates in Public Interest Careers Unparalleled Support



The University of Chicago Law School today announced a complete redesign of its Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP), making it the most generous program of its kind. The three most important changes to the program are that it now offers the opportunity for any graduate staying in public interest for ten years to go to law school for free, that all graduates who serve as judicial clerks will be eligible for the program, and that a generous $80,000 salary cap will make the program more inclusive than ever.

“I am incredibly proud to announce that Chicago Law graduates who stay in public interest for ten years can now receive a free legal education,” said Michael Schill, the Law School’s Dean and the Harry N. Wyatt Professor of Law. “Combined with our other innovations, this unique and important aspect of our new program will provide the highest possible level of support to our students and alumni who dedicate their careers to public service.” The University of Chicago Law School is unique in offering an LRAP that covers all of a graduate’s loan payments so long as he or she meets the federal requirements and stays within the salary cap of $80,000.

“No LRAP program of this kind offers a higher salary cap,” said Karla Vargas, Director of Financial Aid, “but one aspect of this program that truly sets Chicago Law’s LRAP apart is that the salary cap does not take into account any spousal income or other assets the graduate may have. Many LRAPs base repayment on a ‘calculated income’ that is dependent not upon the actual drawn salary,” Vargas continued, “but upon a complicated calculation that includes dependents, spousal income, locality, debt, and assets. Our new LRAP not only keeps things simple, but makes many more of our students eligible than they would be at other schools.”

The Chicago Law LRAP has an additional aspect offered by no other top school: inclusion of all judicial clerkships as eligible positions. “Clerkships provide excellent training for our graduates, particularly those who enter jobs in government and public service,” said Schill, “and, as government service, there is no reason to exclude them.” Schill is proud to include all judicial clerks, even those not pursuing public interest careers, in the LRAP program, saying “The Law School has long been a leader in sending graduates to judicial clerkships. It is part of the DNA of our law school, and this will provide even more students with the opportunity to pursue clerking.”

The Law School is fortunate to have the generous support of Ambassador James C. Hormel, ’58, for many of its public service initiatives, including loan repayment assistance. The Hormel Public Interest Funds have been and continue to be crucial to the long-term success of this program.

These changes are just the latest in a series of new additions to the Law School’s public interest program. Beginning with the hiring of Susan Curry, Director of Public Interest Programs, in July 2010, the Law School has significantly increased both financial and programmatic support for students and alumni in public interest. Among the programs benefiting students at the Law School are guaranteed funding for summer public interest work in both the 1L and 2L summers, a new formal student pro bono program, growth of opportunities in the renowned Mandel Legal Aid Clinic and the Law School’s other exceptional clinics, additional substantive public interest curricular offerings, expanded assistance with fellowship applications and career counseling, increased support for student attendance at public interest job fairs, and expansion of international public service opportunities.

Just as current students have been the first to receive the benefits of increased emphasis on public interest at the Law School, they will also have the opportunity to use either the new or prior loan repayment programs. As always, the Offices of Financial Aid and Career Services will work extensively with students to determine which option will best fit their individual situations. The Class of 2013 will be the first to be entirely under the new program.

“The University of Chicago Law School’s support for students and alumni in the public sector is second to none,” said Curry. “With this extraordinary LRAP program, Chicago Law will provide graduates with the simplest, most inclusive, and most generous program available today, including the opportunity to experience a judicial clerkship and the chance to have the entirety of their debt erased. Any prospective student interested in public service should be interested in Chicago Law.”

Details about the new program are available here, together with explanations of some of the newest parts of the program.

4102011
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby 4102011 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:50 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Saw the UChi email and was like wow they are going to better than HYS... then I read the details, saw IBR and shook my head in disgust. This program is NOT exceptional.


I mean, it's definitely not better than YHS. No one said that, and this thread is CCNB PI stuff.

mcweanis wrote:i don't understand this stuff well enough to know how good this lrap is, but it is DEFINITELY better than what they had before, which sucked.


SO true.

And I don't know why other people think IBR sucks, but my main concern is that your debt continues to accumulate interest and isn't forgiven on a year-by-year basis like a lot of other schools. So you really have to commit to all ten years.

d34d9823
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:51 pm

dulcatis wrote:So you really have to commit to all ten years.

And commit to not losing your job or having a life event that forces you to leave it.

4102011
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby 4102011 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:52 pm

amorfati wrote:For the record, NYU's Union Square gym (Palladium) might be smaller -- I'm not sure on that point -- but it's still pretty sizeable and, in my opinion, nicer. It's more modern, and it also has a pool and a rock climbing wall (or at least it did when I was in undergrad there). I hated the one at Mercer (Coles) -- it was pretty run-down. But if I were a law student there (which I might be soon - depends what happens with Columbia!), I would definitely be hitting up Coles more just for the sake of proximity.

Also, both gyms are definitely free to students. I don't remember any student activity fees, either, but I could be wrong on that point. Also, I wouldn't call them "off-campus" -- as far as NYU's "campus" goes, they're both on it. Coles is much closer to Washington Square, of course, which is where the law school and most of the main buildings are. Palladium is about a 10 to 15-minute walk from that area, but it's in one of the main dorms and close to several other NYU buildings (mostly undergrad dorms).


+1

Palladium's smaller and nicer, but they're planning on renovating Coles (the Mercer one) sometime soon. So I don't know how that will work. But it's definitely nicer!

Ghost
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Ghost » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:11 pm

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Last edited by Ghost on Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

4102011
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby 4102011 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:16 pm

Kili wrote:Isn't IBR based on qualifying careers? So even if you lost your job shouldn't you still qualify as long as you move into another qualifying career?

(Ex. Clerking --> XYZ PI career --> Switching to another PI organization)


Yeah, but if you lose your job/can't find one you're fuckeddd.

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IndyHCKM
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby IndyHCKM » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:34 pm

My understanding of this new program is that you can put all of your loans into IBR, which will never charge you more than 15% of your annual income. Then Chicago will give you a loan to cover that 15% for any income level up to $80k a year. This loan from Chicago is then forgiven after 1 year and you can qualify for such a loan any year that you work for 9 months in a qualifying job for up to 10 years after graduation.

Am I missing something?

4102011
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby 4102011 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:37 pm

That's my understanding of it, too!

Plus clerkships and the 80k not taking your spouse's income/assets into account.

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BruceWayne
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:38 pm

dulcatis wrote:
Kili wrote:Isn't IBR based on qualifying careers? So even if you lost your job shouldn't you still qualify as long as you move into another qualifying career?

(Ex. Clerking --> XYZ PI career --> Switching to another PI organization)


Yeah, but if you lose your job/can't find one you're fuckeddd.


If by "F'd" you mean that you are screwed in regards to your loans, I wouldn't say that. If you don't have a job it's very easy to have your loans deferred. So while it's never good to be jobless people shouldn't think that as soon as they lose their IBR qualifying job they are suddenly in a situation where they no longer qualify to stay in IBR and suddenly have to start paying the full loan amount back.

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IndyHCKM
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby IndyHCKM » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:13 pm

dulcatis wrote:That's my understanding of it, too!

Plus clerkships and the 80k not taking your spouse's income/assets into account.


So now I just need to gain a working understanding of this IRB stuff.

Hey-O
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Hey-O » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:55 pm

IndyHCKM wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Saw the UChi email and was like wow they are going to better than HYS... then I read the details, saw IBR and shook my head in disgust. This program is NOT exceptional.


I don't know much about IBR. Could you explain why you think this program is not exceptional? I would really appreciate it.


Yes, me too. I'm not a financial wizard so my research into the LRAPs has left me a little confused. I'm currently choosing b/t UChi and CLS and I'm going to do PI, so the LRAP is very important.

rundoxierun
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:17 pm

Hey-O wrote:
IndyHCKM wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Saw the UChi email and was like wow they are going to better than HYS... then I read the details, saw IBR and shook my head in disgust. This program is NOT exceptional.


I don't know much about IBR. Could you explain why you think this program is not exceptional? I would really appreciate it.


Yes, me too. I'm not a financial wizard so my research into the LRAPs has left me a little confused. I'm currently choosing b/t UChi and CLS and I'm going to do PI, so the LRAP is very important.


Sure. It is probably an improvement on their old program but not anything special and certainly not the revolution they paint it to be. Basically, the old program gave you about 10k/yr for 7 years if you made less than 60k. This program covers your IBR payments for you for up to 10 years if you make less than 80k. In reality, for the vast majority of PI people, the actual aggregate benefit from UChicago wont really differ. Basically, by forcing students to enter the IBR program they use the government to forgive your loans. Unfortunately, the government has an all or nothing policy so if you leave PI before the 10 year period is up you will likely owe close to your entire loan amount (even if you leave in the 9th year).

The worst thing about this all is that Chicago clearly tried to use certain buzzwords to make the program seem A LOT better than it is. For instance, they promote a salary cap of 80k when the reality is that no one planning on entering PI should plan on making that amount of money within 10 years. Then they promote the idea of "annual forgiveness" and the ability to enter and leave the program at will when all they are forgiving is the loan for the IBR payment and not the debt. The clerkship part could be useful to delay owing money but the reality is that with a clerkship salary it is very unlikely to reduce your actual debt at all.

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Eugenie Danglars
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Eugenie Danglars » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:20 pm

dulcatis wrote:
And I don't know why other people think IBR sucks, but my main concern is that your debt continues to accumulate interest and isn't forgiven on a year-by-year basis like a lot of other schools. So you really have to commit to all ten years.


What schools forgive actual debt year-by-year? Northwestern will pay some of your interest, but all the schools I'm looking at make you forgivable loans to meet your IBR payments- they don't touch the principal debt

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:44 am

tkgrrett wrote:For instance, they promote a salary cap of 80k when the reality is that no one planning on entering PI should plan on making that amount of money within 10 years

Hmm? I believe that is a very attainable salary in many PI careers, particularly in government.

tkgrrett wrote:Then they promote the idea of "annual forgiveness" and the ability to enter and leave the program at will when all they are forgiving is the loan for the IBR payment and not the debt.

There was a discussion elsewhere about NYU's new program, where I believe they in fact will forgive a portion of your actual loan principal if you leave before the ten year period. Chicago could well be doing the same thing. (I don't know, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.)

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clintonius
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby clintonius » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:55 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:For instance, they promote a salary cap of 80k when the reality is that no one planning on entering PI should plan on making that amount of money within 10 years

Hmm? I believe that is a very attainable salary in many PI careers, particularly in government.

I was about to say the same thing. But it might not matter if Chicago doesn't consider government jobs to be PI (I have no idea if they do or not). NYU does, and I believe most top schools do, but some don't, and Chicago historically has had a pretty lame LRAP in comparison to its peers.

spondee
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby spondee » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:18 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Then they promote the idea of "annual forgiveness" and the ability to enter and leave the program at will when all they are forgiving is the loan for the IBR payment and not the debt.

There was a discussion elsewhere about NYU's new program, where I believe they in fact will forgive a portion of your actual loan principal if you leave before the ten year period. Chicago could well be doing the same thing. (I don't know, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.)


Yeah, NYU forgives after 3 years, then every year after that.

d34d9823
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby d34d9823 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:43 am

clintonius wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:For instance, they promote a salary cap of 80k when the reality is that no one planning on entering PI should plan on making that amount of money within 10 years

Hmm? I believe that is a very attainable salary in many PI careers, particularly in government.

I was about to say the same thing. But it might not matter if Chicago doesn't consider government jobs to be PI (I have no idea if they do or not). NYU does, and I believe most top schools do, but some don't, and Chicago historically has had a pretty lame LRAP in comparison to its peers.

I have no idea what point you are making here.

09042014
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:58 am

Pathetic Berkley trolling.

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worldtraveler
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:42 am

That LRAP description sounds like most in the T10. A lot of their own description sounded like hyberbole.

Renzo
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Renzo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:51 am

dresden doll wrote:
Gatriel wrote:Work really hard in UG and do well. Study hard on LSAT, do well and have the potential to get into Harvard . . . . and you want to PI?

Maybe I have an erroneous mental image of PI, but typically I think of some slave public defender who makes $40k a year. Just doesn't seem like the lifestyle for an attorney who graduates from a T10 school.

You have an erroneous mental image of PI, yes.

You have to understand: to Gatriel, poors are sub-human.

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worldtraveler
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:26 am

Desert Fox wrote:Pathetic Berkley trolling.


Pathetic Berkeley spelling.

Hey-O
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby Hey-O » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:35 am

worldtraveler wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Pathetic Berkley trolling.


Pathetic Berkeley spelling.


+1

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clintonius
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby clintonius » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:28 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
clintonius wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:For instance, they promote a salary cap of 80k when the reality is that no one planning on entering PI should plan on making that amount of money within 10 years

Hmm? I believe that is a very attainable salary in many PI careers, particularly in government.

I was about to say the same thing. But it might not matter if Chicago doesn't consider government jobs to be PI (I have no idea if they do or not). NYU does, and I believe most top schools do, but some don't, and Chicago historically has had a pretty lame LRAP in comparison to its peers.

I have no idea what point you are making here.

This is why I shouldn't browse the forum on a Friday night. 80k is an attainable PI salary in government positions, but that point is totally moot if Chicago doesn't cover government positions with its LRAP.

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chris0805
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Re: CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life

Postby chris0805 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:17 pm

I think people really need to differentiate between IBR linked programs and non-IBR linked programs. With IBR, schools can significantly raise the income threshold, but it might not always be in the best interests of their graduates.

For one, your loan continues to go up during your ten years until (assuming you stick with it for ten years). This could definitely change your plans as you move along in your career and close some doors.

Also, IBR does not allow as much wiggle room for "qualifying employment." At many schools, a select group of private entities (unions, plaintiff firms, etc.) still qualify as public interest employment for the LRAP, but if it's dovetailing with IBR, those jobs will no longer be covered.

I'm not saying IBR is bad, but it's not like 80K with IBR is necessarily better than 50K without IBR. It's actually a complicated analyses.




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