Fordham vs BC vs Cardozo (27K)

[alumniguy]

I graduated in 2008. Again, my class year had one of the most advantageous recruiting years ever. When I was in law school, you had to work to not find a job.

I don't disagree that you can try to minimize expenses in law school (even at Cardozo), but to me this analysis should not be all that important in making your decision because you can minimize living expenses wherever you go to school.

[IsleMet]

I think you could make a strong argument for either. Just make it easy...

Heads: Fordham
Tails: BC

I'm going to BC, so I'd nudge you in that direction. I really like the feel of the school, students, and faculty. All things being equal financially, maybe Fordham would have the advantage because it's in NYC and you want to practice there (but according to the numbers that people have posted, BC may be better for Big Law).

Tough choice! Good luck!

[bigkahuna2020]

I graduated in 2008. Again, my class year had one of the most advantageous recruiting years ever. When I was in law school, you had to work to not find a job.

I don't disagree that you can try to minimize expenses in law school (even at Cardozo), but to me this analysis should not be all that important in making your decision because you can minimize living expenses wherever you go to school.

While it may be true you can minimize living expenses, I would argue Cardozo is uniquely situated and therefore has a greater ability to lower CoL by a greater proportion than what is estimated due to public transit (ie no car costs, and especially for Boston, no need to pay for parking at the school AND around your house, and also the vast drop in costs you can get living only 30 minutes away)

[alumniguy]

Admittedly, I have only lived in Manhattan and my knowledge of the outer boroughs is limited, but NYC is just vastly more expensive than Boston. Everything in NYC is significantly more expensive than Boston. The subway pass is double. Apartment costs, even 30 minutes away from Manhattan are going to be more expensive than what you could find in Boston.

I lived in the Allston/Brighton area when I went to BC and my rent was $725 for a decent no-frills two bedroom with a roommate. I didn't have a car so no need to pay for parking (there really is no need for a car at BC - yes it will improve your QoL, but I'd recommend getting a zip car membership for the few times a month you want to get out of the city and/or go grocery shopping).

If you are trying to minimize living expenses, you would be able to live much more cheaply in Boston than anywhere in NYC.

[bigkahuna2020]

Admittedly, I have only lived in Manhattan and my knowledge of the outer boroughs is limited, but NYC is just vastly more expensive than Boston. Everything in NYC is significantly more expensive than Boston. The subway pass is double. Apartment costs, even 30 minutes away from Manhattan are going to be more expensive than what you could find in Boston.

I lived in the Allston/Brighton area when I went to BC and my rent was $725 for a decent no-frills two bedroom with a roommate. I didn't have a car so no need to pay for parking (there really is no need for a car at BC - yes it will improve your QoL, but I'd recommend getting a zip car membership for the few times a month you want to get out of the city and/or go grocery shopping).

If you are trying to minimize living expenses, you would be able to live much more cheaply in Boston than anywhere in NYC.

For 725 you can live in a really nice plane in Park Slope, Williamsburg, Jersey City, Astoria, Greenpoint etc, and you can do better if you want to move away a little further. Overall costs are significantly cheaper in the outer boroughs and even more so in N Jersey

That $104 subway pass also gets you the ability to move around the city 24/7 and not rely on taxis as much

Did you go to BC Law? It is one of my top choices, but there is no legitimate public transit that goes there...you can take the slow ass green line branch to BC UG and then the shuttle, or take one of the TWO AM shuttles from the C line to Cleveland Circle, as far as I know. It seems like you would lose a LOT of time at BCLS using public transit.

[alumniguy]

Did you go to BC Law? It is one of my top choices, but there is no legitimate public transit that goes there...you can take the slow ass green line branch to BC UG and then the shuttle, or take one of the TWO AM shuttles from the C line to Cleveland Circle, as far as I know. It seems like you would lose a LOT of time at BCLS using public transit.

Yea, I went to BC Law. I did not have a car either. I lived in Alston/Brighton (right on the Brookline border) and my average commute was 30-45 minutes. You're right, it is generally the B line to the end, walk about 5 minutes to the shuttle bus stop and then about 15 minutes on the shuttle bus. That or the C line to Cleveland circle and then its shuttle bus to the main campus and then the shuttle bus to the law school campus (unless you get the direct to law school shuttle - which didn't exist when I was there). It certainly was annoying, but I didn't have any other choices (at first). You'll quickly make friends with your fellow 1Ls and ideally you'll be able to car pool - I would say I carpooled about 60-75 percent of my trips to the law school.

Now, if you are living in any of those locations in NYC that you suggested bigkahuna2020, you'll have a similarly long commute that involves transfers (NJ will require path and an uptown train, williamsburg/greenpoint is L and an uptown train). [EDIT: It actually won't involve a transfer, just a bit of a walk (I was mistaking Fordham for Cardozo, apologies.] Do you currently live in NYC? Because if so, I need your broker since I don't think you can get a really nice place for $725. For that price, it is going to be a basic, no frills, fairly small apartment that is probably pretty far away from good transportation. A friend of mine just got a very basic one bedroom in Park Slope for 1600 and that was a good deal (that also doesn't include the broker's fee which is 15% of yearly rent). Even Williamsburg and Greenpoint are now getting fairly expensive (practically Manhattan prices, but you'll get more space for your money obviously).

Not to mention that you are going to be tempted into spending more money in NYC as there is just more to do. Restaurants are much more expensive, movie tickets are more expensive, grocery stores are more expensive. The only thing that I think is actually cheaper is your cab fare.

[indecisive111]

Definitely agree with Alumniguy about the pricing in NYC... I'm from there and it is almost impossible to find anything under $1000 in the areas you listed... Places like Williamsburg are almost the same cost as NYC and in general NYC is just more expensive (this doesn't matter for me because my COL will be the same in Boston and NYC for other reasons).... but just to other people who are thinking about NYC... if you want to be within a 45 minute commute, finding a place under 1K will be pretty tough (unless you get a couple of roommates)

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Agree on New York costs. Also, why wouldn't you just own a car at BC? If you are at BC, you have the benefit of being able to own a car, something that is very difficult to do at Fordham, BU, GW, etc. I would take advantage of that ability. I would much rather drive my own car than taking public transportation every day. Public transportation is something that is useful when you can't/shouldn't drive, but I would hate having to take it every day.

[alumniguy]

Agree on New York costs. Also, why wouldn't you just own a car at BC? If you are at BC, you have the benefit of being able to own a car, something that is very difficult to do at Fordham, BU, GW, etc. I would take advantage of that ability. I would much rather drive my own car than taking public transportation every day. Public transportation is something that is useful when you can't/shouldn't drive, but I would hate having to take it every day.

I actually like not having a car! Though in NYC, it is much easier. I didn't have a car when I was at BC Law and if I could have afforded it, I would have bought a car. That said, owning a car is a significant expense, especially in Boston (we're talking gas, insurance, parking spots, the inevitable tickets, etc.) For some people, having a car won't be financially possible. There are plenty of ZIP cars (i.e., cars that you rent by the hour) in Boston that you can take advantage of as well, and this is a great way to have the flexibility of having a car without the incredible expense of owning/leasing.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

I imagine you were the exception, not the rule. Correct? Did most students have cars?

[alumniguy]

I wouldn't say the exception, but yes most students had cars. I would venture a guess that maybe 10-20% did not have cars.

[bigkahuna2020]

Do you currently live in NYC? Because if so, I need your broker since I don't think you can get a really nice place for $725. For that price, it is going to be a basic, no frills, fairly small apartment that is probably pretty far away from good transportation. A friend of mine just got a very basic one bedroom in Park Slope for 1600 and that was a good deal (that also doesn't include the broker's fee which is 15% of yearly rent). Even Williamsburg and Greenpoint are now getting fairly expensive (practically Manhattan prices, but you'll get more space for your money obviously).

Not to mention that you are going to be tempted into spending more money in NYC as there is just more to do. Restaurants are much more expensive, movie tickets are more expensive, grocery stores are more expensive. The only thing that I think is actually cheaper is your cab fare.

Yes I live in NYC---and I am comparing apples to apples---you said with a roommate and I am saying with a roommate. Your first problem is using brokers, which is only really usefull IMO in Manhattan where they force you to have one. The NICER parts of park slope are about that expensive, but the "new" parts which are really South Slope and Prospect Heights are certainly that price with rommates (usually 3 people in an apt) and are not broker apartments.

Same with Greenpoint and Williamsburg---you can find such places though now with the hipster infection they are probably closer to 900 than 700 with other people. But you can't live in the "nice" spots.

And the commute will be far far less than 45 minutes (more like 25 minutes and consistently that) to get to Cardozo---and that 1-1.5 avenues is not a "walk" it is just how you get places, you know this if you live there.

Comparing like commutes, Jersey City (with a bus to the PATH) and Astoria are closer to the commute you have at BC, and are EASILY 600+less than 100 in other expenses. Not to mention, if you want to stay in Manhattan, similiar rents can easily be found in Washington Heights also.

There are also a lot of smaller hoods in the outer buroughs (Sunnyside, Bay Ridge etc) that are affordable if a bit far out

[FuManChusco]

Do you currently live in NYC? Because if so, I need your broker since I don't think you can get a really nice place for $725. For that price, it is going to be a basic, no frills, fairly small apartment that is probably pretty far away from good transportation. A friend of mine just got a very basic one bedroom in Park Slope for 1600 and that was a good deal (that also doesn't include the broker's fee which is 15% of yearly rent). Even Williamsburg and Greenpoint are now getting fairly expensive (practically Manhattan prices, but you'll get more space for your money obviously).

Not to mention that you are going to be tempted into spending more money in NYC as there is just more to do. Restaurants are much more expensive, movie tickets are more expensive, grocery stores are more expensive. The only thing that I think is actually cheaper is your cab fare.

Yes I live in NYC---and I am comparing apples to apples---you said with a roommate and I am saying with a roommate. Your first problem is using brokers, which is only really usefull IMO in Manhattan where they force you to have one. The NICER parts of park slope are about that expensive, but the "new" parts which are really South Slope and Prospect Heights are certainly that price with rommates (usually 3 people in an apt) and are not broker apartments.

Same with Greenpoint and Williamsburg---you can find such places though now with the hipster infection they are probably closer to 900 than 700 with other people. But you can't live in the "nice" spots.

And the commute will be far far less than 45 minutes (more like 25 minutes and consistently that) to get to Cardozo---and that 1-1.5 avenues is not a "walk" it is just how you get places, you know this if you live there.

Comparing like commutes, Jersey City (with a bus to the PATH) and Astoria are closer to the commute you have at BC, and are EASILY 600+less than 100 in other expenses. Not to mention, if you want to stay in Manhattan, similiar rents can easily be found in Washington Heights also.

There are also a lot of smaller hoods in the outer buroughs (Sunnyside, Bay Ridge etc) that are affordable if a bit far out

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

[bigkahuna2020]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

Fail. Not comparable even at full scholarship.

[bigkahuna2020]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

Fail. Not comparable even at full scholarship.

This is raw idiocy.

[FuManChusco]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

(Tuition + School's estimated COL - Scholly)*3 = total COA

Cardozo

(46,224 + 24,459 - 27,000)*3 = 131,049

BC
(41,590 + 19,318 -0)*3 = 182,724

even with your bogus COL calculations that you're pulling out of your ass, it still wouldn't even be close to "less than half."

looking at employment data, I certainly wouldn't attend dozo over BC with a 50k difference. especially when you're looking at 6 figure debt from both.

ad hominem FTL

[bigkahuna2020]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

(Tuition + School's estimated COL - Scholly)*3 = total COA

Cardozo

(46,224 + 24,459 - 27,000)*3 = 131,049

BC
(41,590 + 19,318 -0)*3 = 182,724

even with your bogus COL calculations that you're pulling out of your ass, it still wouldn't even be close to "less than half."

looking at employment data, I certainly wouldn't attend dozo over BC with a 50k difference. especially when you're looking at 6 figure debt from both.

ad hominem FTL

I know both places, and have lived in both places---the need for a car (notwithstanding accepting a 45 minute commute and begging taxis to take you out of Boston proper when you go out) basically makes it a wash

Also, learn how to read...TUITION is less than half of BC. 19,224 is less than half of 41,590

Also, what student would need over 3k to live and go to Dozo. I mean seriously. And 2300 or so for BC, rent+bills+car (insurance, gas, parking both sides, tickets, repairs)---I mean possible if you don't have a car, but then the BCer says 90% of students have one

And this comes from a guy who is would probably take BC at sticker over Dozo w/ 85% tuition schollie---to argue that dozo with a significant scholarship is not comparable AT ALL ever is intellectually dishonest

[FuManChusco]

the problem is you're comparing BC to Cardozo...

Cue the douche. Paying less than half the tuition makes the two at least comparable in some ways.

(Tuition + School's estimated COL - Scholly)*3 = total COA

Cardozo

(46,224 + 24,459 - 27,000)*3 = 131,049

BC
(41,590 + 19,318 -0)*3 = 182,724

even with your bogus COL calculations that you're pulling out of your ass, it still wouldn't even be close to "less than half."

looking at employment data, I certainly wouldn't attend dozo over BC with a 50k difference. especially when you're looking at 6 figure debt from both.

ad hominem FTL

I know both places, and have lived in both places---the need for a car (notwithstanding accepting a 45 minute commute and begging taxis to take you out of Boston proper when you go out) basically makes it a wash

Also, learn how to read...TUITION is less than half of BC. 19,224 is less than half of 41,590

only taking tuition into consideration is idiotic, considering it is only a fraction of the total cost. and even if you add the cost of a car in Boston, BC still beats Dozo by a mile.

[bigkahuna2020]

only taking tuition into consideration is idiotic, considering it is only a fraction of the total cost. and even if you add the cost of a car in Boston, BC still beats Dozo by a mile.

Have you lived in NYC?

And I am not "only" taking it into consideration.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

12% ftw!

[FuManChusco]

only taking tuition into consideration is idiotic, considering it is only a fraction of the total cost. and even if you add the cost of a car in Boston, BC still beats Dozo by a mile.

Have you lived in either city?

I know what the costs of NY are because I have many friends that live there. I've been in B for 5 years now as well... all without a car. the fact of the matter is, that scholly from Dozo isn't significant enough. I would never ever ever go into 6 figure debt for Dozo. not a chance. I wouldn't take sticker at BC either, but if I was forced into the decision, I would take BC. the employment numbers aren't close. plus BC has superiority in a market compared to Dozo's 4th seed in the NYC market.

[bigkahuna2020]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1

12% ftw!

LoL at assuming that a 15% gap is worth 125k or so in more debt, bar none, period, no questions asked.

In the interested of full disclosure, I voted for BC, but things are not as cut and dry as y'all make it seem.

[FuManChusco]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1

12% ftw!

LoL at assuming that a 15% gap is worth 125k or so in more debt, bar none, period, no questions asked.

In the interested of full disclosure, I voted for BC, but things are not as cut and dry as y'all make it seem.

where the fuck are you getting these numbers? oh and that scholly has a GPA stip on it.

[bigkahuna2020]

only taking tuition into consideration is idiotic, considering it is only a fraction of the total cost. and even if you add the cost of a car in Boston, BC still beats Dozo by a mile.

Have you lived in either city?

I know what the costs of NY are because I have many friends that live there. I've been in B for 5 years now as well... all without a car. the fact of the matter is, that scholly from Dozo isn't significant enough. I would never ever ever go into 6 figure debt for Dozo. not a chance. I wouldn't take sticker at BC either, but if I was forced into the decision, I would take BC. the employment numbers aren't close. plus BC has superiority in a market compared to Dozo's 4th seed in the NYC market.

5th. You forgot Cornell (though, for what it's worth, NYC is a huge market with a lot of small firms that pay 60+, though I don't know how it is in Boston.

Two issues you are forgetting---as a local, I know costs can drop dramatically when you are on the confluence of subway lines (123, NRQ, 456, L, though the ACE is a bit far) not to mention the PATH to Jersey City and Hoboken (both less than a 20 minute train ride)---most transplants just don't have a feel for the transport system and end up living in very expensive areas

When I lived in Boston, I didn't have a car either---but I lived and worked in South Cambridge

BC Law is not nearly as accessible, and I really do not think it is possible to go there without a car, at least for most people.