Fordham vs BC vs Cardozo (27K)

[indecisive111]

BC lovers want to chime in? or anyone else for that matter...

[Rule11]

Don't do it. You are very unlikely to get the biglaw you seek, and the alternative is very bad.

(I see you've just ignored everyone else who said this, but my conscience compels me.)

[indecisive111]

I'm not ignoring anyone. I would just like as many opinions as possible and so far if you look back the opinions really vary between BC and Fordham

[patrickd139]

Still voting retake, reapply because you want biglaw. None of those schools (statistically) is going to give you more than a mediocre shot at the career you say you want.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

35% isn't a good chance at biglaw? Fordham and BC both provide around 35% shot. The lower T14s are in the 40s, which isn't that big of a difference.

Check the stats, but this is what I thought I remember reading from NLJ's placement stats (go-to schools or whatever it was called).

[indecisive111]

35% isn't a good chance at biglaw? Fordham and BC both provide around 35% shot. The lower T14s are in the 40s, which isn't that big of a difference.

Check the stats, but this is what I thought I remember reading from NLJ's placement stats (go-to schools or whatever it was called).

I think that gives a decent shot provided you work hard to do well.

BC places a little higher than Fordham according to the NLJ250 Go-To Law Schools... But I think its safe to assume that 99.9% of Fordham's placement in that stat is in NY, while 80% of BC's placement in that stat is Boston... definitely feeling fordham...

[lottero89]

Hey, I emailed Fordham earlier with the same stats as you (I looked at your other posts) and they said no on the money. How did you get 15k for the 3 years? Did you tell them you really wanted to come but that Cardozo gave you money?

It is so funny because my situation is EXACTLY the same as yours. about 30k a year at cardozo, and then my other viable options are fordham or bc (and maryland because i am in-state but i don't want to go there).

I am going to the BC admitted students day tom - are you going?

I would say go to BC because have you seen the new placement in the top 250 biglaw firm rankings?! BC is # 16!! just behind all of the top 14's. BC is great for biglaw (although I want to do public interest) and I think it will get you anywhere you need to be.

my problem is that I want to be in dc the rest of my life (like yours for ny) but i am not worried about not being able to do that because i know BC will get me to dc or ny if i do well (although it does have the best placement in Boston obviously)

anyway, sorry this is so long but it is funny that we are in the exact same situation. i think it is also hard to justify going to fordham over cardozo with all that money! (it is hard for my parents, at least)... there is not THAT big of a difference in their rankings. i know fordham's rep is way better nonetheless... decisions, decisions.

good luck! and maybe we'll both be at BC next year

[2011Law]

I'd usually say Fordham if you want to practice in NYC, but you'd (presumably) be able to save ~40k by going to sticker at BC over sticker at Fordham. You'd still be able to go back to NYC, especially since you have ties there.

[ran12]

Go to BC. Even at sticker, it's a better deal than Cardozo b/c a lot of Cardozo grads get jobs through family connections so the numbers are higher than would be.

[indecisive111]

Right now BC and Fordham will cost me exactly the same (COL expenses aren't a factor... they will be the same for me no matter which city I choose)

I REALLY like BC's reputation and alumni network but I am very concerned that it will give me a smaller chance of getting into the NYC market and I have to get back to NYC

[ran12]

Right now BC and Fordham will cost me exactly the same (COL expenses aren't a factor... they will be the same for me no matter which city I choose)

I REALLY like BC's reputation and alumni network but I am very concerned that it will give me a smaller chance of getting into the NYC market and I have to get back to NYC

If NYC is really where you want to be, go to BC and try to get there. Worst case, you can work in Boston and then try to go to NYC after a couple years.

[2011Law]

Right now BC and Fordham will cost me exactly the same (COL expenses aren't a factor... they will be the same for me no matter which city I choose)

I REALLY like BC's reputation and alumni network but I am very concerned that it will give me a smaller chance of getting into the NYC market and I have to get back to NYC

I actually just changed my vote. If the CoA is the same at both schools for you, then I think Fordham is the better deal. I originally chose b/c I thought BC would be a little cheaper and you'd have a better shot at biglaw (though you might have to settle for biglaw in Boston). If you really want NYC biglaw, I think Fordham is a no-brainer.

[patrickd139]

If you really want a shot at NYC biglaw, I think Fordham is a no-brainer.

FTFM

[indecisive111]

If you really want a shot at NYC biglaw, I think Fordham is a no-brainer.

FTFM

Well ITE i think a shot is all anyone can hope for...

[BCLS]

35% isn't a good chance at biglaw? Fordham and BC both provide around 35% shot. The lower T14s are in the 40s, which isn't that big of a difference.

Check the stats, but this is what I thought I remember reading from NLJ's placement stats (go-to schools or whatever it was called).

Ding..Both do not provide the same chance. For big law in general, BC is the clear winner. However, it may be true, and probably is, that big law advantage in NY goes to Fordham. For the best overall options BC = winner.

[2011Law]

If you really want a shot at NYC biglaw, I think Fordham is a no-brainer.

FTFM

A fourth grader who can spot context clues would know that's what I meant in the first place.

[patrickd139]

If you really want a shot at NYC biglaw, I think Fordham is a no-brainer.

FTFM

A fourth grader who can spot context clues would know that's what I meant in the first place.

I'm still not convinced OP realizes the potential pitfalls of going into that amount of debt for a 1 in 3 shot at getting the job s/he wants.

[flexityflex86]

I cannot decide which of these I want to attend... Just to give some background, I go to school in Boston now, but am originally from NY. I want to do NYC BigLaw. Fordham and BC haven't given me any money and I assume they won't. And Cardozo gave me $27K/year with a stipulation of a 2.85GPA.

If you actually want a decent shot at big law, none of these.

If neither Fordham nor BC offer you money, and you are paying for tuition and COL out of your own pocket/loans, Cardozo is the only reasonable choice out of the three.

I don't know how 40k/yr in loans is smart for a tier-2 school.

COL in NYC is very high.

He will be paying ~1500/month rent if he wants to live at all close to campus.

Groceries and food will be 500 a month minimum. Subway is 109 a month. Gym is 100 a month. Socialization as a guy with dating and what not in NYC is another 300-600 a month depending on how popular you are. It will be minimum 25k/yr to support a semi-decent lifestyle + the 13k tuition.

[FuManChusco]

BC hands down. Fordham gives you a better shot at NYC, no doubt, but because you're have Boston ties from undergrad, you can hit both markets hard and have a better shot at getting an offer. If you get an offer in Boston and not NYC, you could work on lateraling after two years or so.

this is really good advice.

ETA: if he must choose between these options. debt load is unfortunate though.

[flexityflex86]

Fordham is not worth sticker, but it is definitely worth 27k a more than Cardozo in my opinion. I see Fordham as the lowest ranked school that can get you a decent job in NYC unless you just happen to perform like a genius in LS.

[alumniguy]

Working in NYC biglaw and came from BC here (full disclosure). My thoughts below (and a few additional musings):

1. No brainer that you should not even be considering Cardozo. Cardozo simply doesn't place well enough to justify the costs of attending school (even with the partial scholarship). I was a SA in 2007 (peak of the peak) at a v20 and I believe we had maybe 2 SAs from Cardozo (out of 75+ SAs). In today's market, you will need to be top 10% (and this is in my opinion a conservative estimate). Even with the reduced debt, the salary of non-biglaw jobs makes Cardozo a bad investment (in my opinion). I've been involved with the two most recent summer associate classes at my firm and there were no Cardozo SAs (there were a few from Fordham, and maybe one or two from either BU/BC).

2. Between BC and Fordham, I would lean BC (which when I went through the decision process I though was counter-intuitive). The rationale is that firms generally want a balanced summer associate class and at BC you will be competing with less students who want NYC biglaw than at Fordham. However, as you want to be in NYC, Fordham may make sense for non-biglaw opportunities (which as uncomfortable as it is to imagine, I would highly recommend investigating what happens to Fordham students that don't land biglaw).

The vast majority of students at Fordham want NYC biglaw and whether you get biglaw in NYC will depend predominantly on your class rank (conventional wisdom being that 1/3 gives you a decent shot at landing an offer at a market rate firm). If you fall below 1/3, I would imagine that it would be difficult to get biglaw in NYC because all of the students who are top 1/3 are looking for NYC biglaw and firms simply won't go that deep into the class. As I mentioned though, Fordham would likely have the best connections to smaller NYC firms that pay below market and this may be the deciding factor in your analysis. (Also, I don't think anyone can predict if they will be top 1/3 - the issue is that EVERYONE thinks they will be top 1/3, but in reality only 1/3 of these people are right).

At BC, there was (and I presume it is still the case) a large percentage of students that simply opt-out of the NYC job fair (they went to BC because they want to stay in Boston). Accordingly, I believe that firms will probably look deeper into a BC class in order to have geographical/law school diversity in their summer classes. The way most students get a NYC biglaw job coming out of BC/BU is to attend a one-day job fair in NYC (sponsored jointly by BC and BU) where NYC firms interview BC/BU students. Traditionally this happens before on-campus interviewing, and during my year many students who wanted to remain in Boston and believed they had a good shot at landing Boston biglaw simply didn't attend the job fair. This allowed a greater number of students (outside the top 1/3) to have first round interviews with a number of NYC biglaw firms because unlike on-campus interviewing, students can only interview with a maximum number of firms given that the job fair is a one-day event.

* * *

Also, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from attending law school, but in the current environment it makes sense to focus on cost/benefits. Taking out $100k+ in student loans for a statistical 1/3 shot at making $160k is certainly a gamble. I paid near sticker at BC and financed my education solely on student loans. I have approximately $150k in student loan debt. My monthly payments are approximately $2k a month (this is for a combination of 15 and 30 years repayment terms). Apartments in NYC are EXPENSIVE and unless you are willing to have roommates, it is unlikely that you'll pay less than $2k per month (and likely much more if you want to live in doorman buildings that have amenities - these cost more like $3k a month). That means that you have a minimum of $4k in expenses (and this doesn't include other necessary expenses, like buying new furniture, updating your wardrobe for work clothes, moving expenses, first/last month and security deposits, etc...).

My biglaw take home pay (after taxes, medical insurance, 401k contribution) was approximately $7k a month for my first year. Certainly, if you make market, you'll easily be able to meet your expenses. However, what isn't talked about much is that the average life of a biglaw associate is short - think 2-3 years. Approximately 50% of the associates in my class remain. In my experience, the majority of those who leave do not go on to other big firms, they leave the law or downsize to smaller firms that pay less. It is very hard to save enough to fully prepay student loans before you exit biglaw. Certainly there are those that "love" biglaw and have visions of making partner and the glories and riches (and constant 24/7 work) that this entails. But for most people, I think this isn't the life that they want and aren't willing to make the sacrifices that it demands.

I question almost daily if I would go to law school knowing what I know today - and that is with me making biglaw market. I can guarantee you that if I wasn't making market, I would say emphatically that law school is not worth it at $100k+ in debt. The great conundrum is that everyone thinks they have what it takes to get a biglaw job...

[patrickd139]

Fantastic post alumniguy. I wish we had more insight from those in your position on this site. When did you graduate BC Law?

[indecisive111]

alumniguy: Awesome post! I really appreciate this insight... definitely gives me something to seriously think about.

[bigkahuna2020]

You can really minimize costs at Cardozo living expense wise---when you have 3-4 subway lines (AND the PATH train) that go within a block or two of the building---you can easily get rommates and spend 600-900 a month or rent and expenses in Brooklyn or Jersey City, and have a commute that is 30 minutes or less

That being said---even then you probably will spend 24k over 12 months for this---I am getting nearly a full scholarship from Cardozo and I am stiull really wondering myself, and I have only a little bit of biglaw ambition

[bigkahuna2020]

Also, BC has cheaper tuition and cheaper CoL---I personally calculated it as ~8k less a year even with a car (though I already have one, this is just expenses associated with upkeep etc)