2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

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CanadianWolf
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:05 am

I think that the question was intended to be more along the lines of personal trust beneficiary restrictions such as "Funds for required educational expenses--such as tuition & mandatory fees--will only be released prior to beneficiary's age 35 to pay for graduate schools ranked in the Top 10 by USNews & World Report."

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RockyIII
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby RockyIII » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:08 am

Everyone keep in mind that in March 2014 (when many of you will graduate LS) the rankings may be quite different from what they are tomorrow.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:10 am

dorriedoodle wrote:If the rankings change at all this year, for those of you deciding where to go, will it have any effect?


depends... ok I'm being honest. If Berkeley shot up to number 2, would it make me feel different about it. It really would. The rankings are kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Not all top law students are on TLS or do they look at placement stats. Before I came across TLS by happenstance, I ED'ed to UCLA because I thought I wanted to do Entertainment law (never mind I wasn't even certain what that was) and USN told me UCLA was the best for this. Fortunately they wait listed me, I found TLS and I got into a lot better schools. But the best people go to where they think the other best people are at. I.e. my friend got into some very prestigious psychology PH.d programs but is dying to go to Berkeley. Why? not because of the professors like she says, or placement or anything else (she's never even been to Cali) she wants to go there with her 3.94 from Northwestern because they are ranked number 1 in the country by USN. Many times the best people go to the highest ranked school.

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Pricer
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Pricer » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:14 am

Good points about the grouping. That makes sense.

dorriedoodle wrote:If the rankings change at all this year, for those of you deciding where to go, will it have any effect?


Yes, kind of. I am currently trying to decide between UGA and Texas. If UGA happened to move up to about the #20 spot, I would be more likely to go there. That isn't probable at all, however, and is more of a hypothetical situation to where ranking changes would have an effect on my decision. If Texas dropped, it wouldn't really change anything for me. I don't think career prospects or prestige are going to decline because Vandy passes it or UCLA breaks the tie.

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Wholigan
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Wholigan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:22 am

Pricer wrote:Good points about the grouping. That makes sense.

dorriedoodle wrote:If the rankings change at all this year, for those of you deciding where to go, will it have any effect?


Yes, kind of. I am currently trying to decide between UGA and Texas. If UGA happened to move up to about the #20 spot, I would be more likely to go there. That isn't probable at all, however, and is more of a hypothetical situation to where ranking changes would have an effect on my decision. If Texas dropped, it wouldn't really change anything for me. I don't think career prospects or prestige are going to decline because Vandy passes it or UCLA breaks the tie.


Srsly? You wouldn't go to UGA at #28, but you would go at #20? Do you actually think it would change your career prospects or that UGA will become a national school because it suddenly moves up in the rankings?

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Barbie
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Barbie » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:22 am

If for some reason FSU shot up way over UF, I might reconsider their scholarship offer over UF at sticker, even though I liked UF much more. If by some grace of god Illinois jumped up near t14... I might have to reconsider that. Obviously rankings don't mean THAT much to me since I'm set on UF over Illinois, but an obvious change of trend could mean something I guess.

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:24 am

This thread is maddening. I can't believe you people think the rankings make one damn bit of difference to you and your legal career.

Threads like these are the reasons JDU and ATL laugh at TLS. The naivete and ignorance among some of our 0Ls is astonishing.
Last edited by romothesavior on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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danquayle
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby danquayle » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:24 am

Pricer wrote:Good points about the grouping. That makes sense.

dorriedoodle wrote:If the rankings change at all this year, for those of you deciding where to go, will it have any effect?


Yes, kind of. I am currently trying to decide between UGA and Texas. If UGA happened to move up to about the #20 spot, I would be more likely to go there. That isn't probable at all, however, and is more of a hypothetical situation to where ranking changes would have an effect on my decision. If Texas dropped, it wouldn't really change anything for me. I don't think career prospects or prestige are going to decline because Vandy passes it or UCLA breaks the tie.


Rankings only matter insomuch as they demonstrate trends, trends which are usually indicative of some more fundamental changes happening at the law school. Indiana rising to 23# from 36 one year doesn't mean much. If Indiana stays at around 25 for a decade it matters a lot, and probably means that they're, in some respect, succeeding in their goal of buying reputation.

Alternatively, Fordham dropping into the 30s for one year doesn't matter. But if Fordham consistently stays in the 30s, or drops further down over time, it might hint at something deeper: perhaps a fundamental shift in the NY legal market wherein jobs are not plentiful enough to sufficiently place Fordham grads at the rate and quality they used to place.

Looking back at historical trends, you can see clearly that some schools have trended higher and some schools have trender lower. UC-Hastings has trended lower, which makes sense given the increasingly competitive California market and waning public support. Meanwhile a school like WUSTL has trended higher, which again also makes sense given WUSTL made a hard and obvious drive to improve its law school ranking over the last few decades.

It's not a terrible idea to use rankings as part of your decision making process, provided you take them in context. It's not crazy to pick a school you think might be "on the upswing" versus a school on down slide, provided you fully accept that you're engaging in pure speculation. Likewise, you might use a ten year look at US News to pick a less volatile school that has a more guaranteed return. That's precisely what people do with the T-14.
Last edited by danquayle on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Barbie
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Barbie » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:28 am

I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.

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Stringer6
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:29 am

The naivete and ignorance among some of our 0Ls is astonishing.


lol @ "our"

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Stringer6
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:33 am

Threads like these are the reasons JDU and ATL laugh at TLS.


lol @ this part too

"wish our web site was higher in the douchebag pecking order, yall"

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:38 am

Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.

I love you Barbie, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that one school gets really good at manipulating data doesn't mean they are better in any way, shape, or form. WUSTL has been 19 in USNWR for years now, and I would NEVER say we are better than BU, BC, UIUC, or GW. The rankings don't "represent trends" and they aren't "self-fulfilling" or any of that other stuff that people say. They are a rough guide when you're first studying law schools, but for students who actually do their homework on placement and job prospects, they become a total non-issue (or they should). This is no way to decide how to start a legal career. UF is better than FSU, even if some stupid magazine says otherwise. And even if the USNWR rankings meant something over the long-term, that is no reason to pick a school based on a one year fluctuation in the rankings.

Once you get into law school, you will never ever worry about little stuff like this again. USNWR is a joke.

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:40 am

Stringer6 wrote:
Threads like these are the reasons JDU and ATL laugh at TLS.


lol @ this part too

"wish our web site was higher in the douchebag pecking order, yall"

I don't really care what they think of us from a reputational standpoint, but when practicing attorneys and current students laugh at the shit that gets said, that probably means the shit that gets said is hilariously stupid and naive.

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Pricer
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Pricer » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:42 am

Wholigan wrote:Srsly? You wouldn't go to UGA at #28, but you would go at #20? Do you actually think it would change your career prospects or that UGA will become a national school because it suddenly moves up in the rankings?


danquayle wrote:Rankings only matter insomuch as they demonstrate trends, trends which are usually indicative of some more fundamental changes happening at the law school. Indiana rising to 23# from 36 one year doesn't mean much. If Indiana stays at around 25 for a decade it matters a lot, and probably means that they're, in some respect, succeeding in their goal of buying reputation.

Alternatively, Fordham dropping into the 30s for one year doesn't matter. But if Fordham consistently stays in the 30s, or drops further down over time, it might hint at something deeper: perhaps a fundamental shift in the NY legal market wherein jobs are not plentiful enough to sufficiently place Fordham grads at the rate and quality they used to place.

Looking back at historical trends, you can see clearly that some schools have trended higher and some schools have trender lower. UC-Hastings has trended lower, which makes sense given the increasingly competitive California market and waning public support. Meanwhile a school like WUSTL has trended higher, which again also makes sense given WUSTL made a hard and obvious drive to improve its law school ranking over the last few decades.

It's not a terrible idea to use rankings as part of your decision making process, provided you take them in context. It's not crazy to pick a school you think might be "on the upswing" versus a school on down slide, provided you fully accept that you're engaging in pure speculation. Likewise, you might use a ten year look at US News to pick a less volatile school that has a more guaranteed return. That's precisely what people do with the T-14.


I didn't say that I wouldn't go. I said that I am currently having a hard time deciding. Cost of attendance vs. career prospects and prestige is something I am weighing very carefully. I am somewhat debt averse, but I want to be able to secure a good job with my JD. If UGA moved up to #20 in the rankings, it would show an upward trend, as the school jumped to #28 from #35 last year. I am not basing my decision solely on the rankings. I have put hours upon hours into researching these two schools and a couple of others I was considering. UGA moving up 15 spots in two years (my hypothetical) is a pretty big deal.

Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.


Barbie made my point here. If UGA were to pass Emory, or to at least tie Emory, I think that it would have an effect on career prospects. That would also move it much closer to Vanderbilt, which is another large opponent in the Atlanta market.

bballfreak56
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby bballfreak56 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:43 am

Any prediction on what time the rankings will be released

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:43 am

romothesavior wrote:
Stringer6 wrote:
Threads like these are the reasons JDU and ATL laugh at TLS.


lol @ this part too

"wish our web site was higher in the douchebag pecking order, yall"

I don't really care what they think of us from a reputational standpoint, but when practicing attorneys and current students laugh at the shit that gets said, that probably means the shit that gets said is hilariously stupid and naive.



Sorry dude, but I think you're wrong. I'm a little older and I remember when Penn wasn't in the top 10. When they first broke into the top 10 everyone made fun of them for manipulating data. However, that ranking yielded them better numbers and it sorta fed on itself. Now take a look at penn's big law placement. Everyone here says "if you want nyc big law, penn is among the best schools for it." That definitely was not always the case. Perception, driven by ranking manipulation, allowed them to up their medians. At the same time their big law placement improved and rep improved as well.

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Barbie
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Barbie » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:44 am

romothesavior wrote:
Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.

I love you Barbie, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that one school gets really good at manipulating data doesn't mean they are better in any way, shape, or form. WUSTL has been 19 in USNWR for years now, and I would NEVER say we are better than BU, BC, UIUC, or GW. The rankings don't "represent trends" and they aren't "self-fulfilling" or any of that other stuff that people say. They are a rough guide when you're first studying law schools, but for students who actually do their homework on placement and job prospects, they become a total non-issue (or they should). This is no way to decide how to start a legal career. UF is better than FSU, even if some stupid magazine says otherwise. And even if the USNWR rankings meant something over the long-term, that is no reason to pick a school based on a one year fluctuation in the rankings.

Once you get into law school, you will never ever worry about little stuff like this again. USNWR is a joke.


I didn't really mean for one year. I meant that if UGA did, for example, pass Emory for one year... its chances are increased of staying that way (because it would then be cheaper AND better ranked, at the least). But, if UGA were to stay ahead of Emory for some years, I think employment prospects could lean to favor UGA.

Anyway, I obviously didn't choose a school based on rankings :)

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RockyIII
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby RockyIII » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:48 am

I think what Romo is saying is that the rankings should be used as a guideline, but nothing more. They have some significance but the fact that a school jumps up/down in the rankings shouldn't be something you make a decision on.

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danquayle
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby danquayle » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:48 am

romothesavior wrote:
Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.

I love you Barbie, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that one school gets really good at manipulating data doesn't mean they are better in any way, shape, or form. WUSTL has been 19 in USNWR for years now, and I would NEVER say we are better than BU, BC, UIUC, or GW. The rankings don't "represent trends" and they aren't "self-fulfilling" or any of that other stuff that people say. They are a rough guide when you're first studying law schools, but for students who actually do their homework on placement and job prospects, they become a total non-issue (or they should). This is no way to decide how to start a legal career. UF is better than FSU, even if some stupid magazine says otherwise. And even if the USNWR rankings meant something over the long-term, that is no reason to pick a school based on a one year fluctuation in the rankings.

Once you get into law school, you will never ever worry about little stuff like this again. USNWR is a joke.


Oh really? Then why did you just group those schools together? Because it wasn't so 20 years ago.

And I've been a practicing attorney for a little while now, and this stuff still comes up. People still discuss this. People still ask what your law school is ranked and make inferences on that basis.

You just lost what little credibility you ever had with me. That you're wrong is one thing, but your conviction makes it painful.
Last edited by danquayle on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

fakemoney
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby fakemoney » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:48 am

Honestly, the rankings do have some real world relevance considering how many law school admissions staffs go nuts trying to game them. And even more illustrative, I remember reading on ATL that Shell Oil in an ad for attorneys posted class ranking requirements to be considered for a position -- rankings requirements that were scaled according to US News and World Report "tiers." You had to be top 40% from a T1 school, 25% T2, I think 10% TTT, 5% TTTT.

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:49 am

Pricer wrote:Barbie made my point here. If UGA were to pass Emory, or to at least tie Emory, I think that it would have an effect on career prospects. That would also move it much closer to Vanderbilt, which is another large opponent in the Atlanta market.

Except there are a whole host of examples of schools that have better/worse rankings that have had not affected their job prospects relative to their peers.

nonprofit-prophet wrote:Sorry dude, but I think you're wrong. I'm a little older and I remember when Penn wasn't in the top 10. When they first broke into the top 10 everyone made fun of them for manipulating data. However, that ranking yielded them better numbers and it sorta fed on itself. Now take a look at penn's big law placement. Everyone here says "if you want nyc big law, penn is among the best schools for it." That definitely was not always the case. Perception, driven by ranking manipulation, allowed them to up their medians. At the same time their big law placement improved and rep improved as well.

Penn has always been a T14, so it probably isn't your best example. There are many examples of schools shooting up the rankings and it having little effect on job prospects.

And like I said, even if this is true, a one year shift in rankings shouldn't make one bit of difference to individual applicants. There are so many other metrics that matter so much more.

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northwood
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby northwood » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:52 am

if you use a magazine as an end all be all to such a big life decision then you are an idiot!

case closed


if you use it to give you a rough estimate, and factor other things- then thats another story completely.

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RockyIII
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby RockyIII » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:52 am

fakemoney wrote:Honestly, the rankings do have some real world relevance considering how many law school admissions staffs go nuts trying to game them.


If they are "gameable" doesn't that mean that there may be some flaws in using them to make decisions?

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:52 am

danquayle wrote:You just lost what little credibility you ever had with me. That you're wrong is one thing, but your conviction makes it painful.

Oh the horror. How will I sleep at night?

And apparently I'm not alone, because ATL had a story not long ago that made fun of how many students pick law schools based on rankings.

I'm sorry, but anyone who might "re-think" their decision based on tomorrow's rankings is doing a pretty stupid thing. There are far more important factors and metrics available.

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danquayle
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby danquayle » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:53 am

romothesavior wrote:
danquayle wrote:You just lost what little credibility you ever had with me. That you're wrong is one thing, but your conviction makes it painful.

Oh the horror. How will I sleep at night?

And apparently I'm not alone, because ATL had a story not long ago that made fun of how many students pick law schools based on rankings.

I'm sorry, but anyone who might "re-think" their decision based on tomorrow's rankings is doing a pretty stupid thing. There are far more important factors and metrics available.


WOW ATL SAID IT!!!
Last edited by danquayle on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.




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