2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official) Forum

[jay115]

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. Chicago
6. NYU
7. Penn
8. UVa
9. Michigan
9. Berkeley
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
14. GULC
14. Vanderbilt
16. Texas
17. UCLA
18. USC
19. WUSTL
20. GWU

I'm obviously biased as a UCLA kid, but here's why I think everyone's predictions of Vandy and Texas overshooting UCLA are overstated:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

[beachbum]

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. Chicago
6. NYU
7. Penn
8. UVa
9. Michigan
9. Berkeley
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
14. GULC
14. Vanderbilt
16. Texas
17. UCLA
18. USC
19. WUSTL
20. GWU

I'm obviously biased as a UCLA kid, but here's why I think everyone's predictions of Vandy and Texas overshooting UCLA are overstated:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

Right, but I'd be surprised if any of that is represented in the US News rankings. If TTT shitholes can have 100% employment with median salaries of $160k, I'm sure Vandy et al. can have 'em too. Also, this data only represents one year, and a lot more goes into placement power than simple NLJ placement.

Obviously, all the rankings in this thread are pure speculation. But if you want to base your predictions on anything, base them on changing medians, as employment stats are far too easily manipulated

[JusticeHarlan]

I'm obviously biased as a UCLA kid, but here's why I think everyone's predictions of Vandy and Texas overshooting UCLA are overstated:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

Those numbers won't be relevant for this years rankings, for two reasons.

First, USNWR only takes into account total employment stats at graduation (4% of the rankings) and at 9 months after graduation (14% of the rankings). It makes no distinction as to how the graduates are employed, only that they were "employed." Schools are very good at gaming these rankings.

Second, those NLJ 250 stats are for class of 2010; US News' next rankings will be looking at employment stats for class of 2009. Last year, they were still basing rankings on class of 2008 employment data:

http://www.usnews.com/education/article ... ethodology

[unc0mm0n1]

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. Chicago
6. Berkeley
7. NYU
8. Penn
9. UVa
9. Michigan
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
14. GULC
14. UCLA
16. Texas
17. Vanderbilt
18. WUSTL
19. USC
20. GWU

edit for a couple of changes

[jay115]

1. Yale
2. Harvard
2. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. Chicago
6. NYU
7. Penn
8. UVa
9. Michigan
9. Berkeley
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
14. GULC
14. Vanderbilt
16. Texas
17. UCLA
18. USC
19. WUSTL
20. GWU

I'm obviously biased as a UCLA kid, but here's why I think everyone's predictions of Vandy and Texas overshooting UCLA are overstated:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

Right, but I'd be surprised if any of that is represented in the US News rankings. If TTT shitholes can have 100% employment with median salaries of $160k, I'm sure Vandy et al. can have 'em too. Also, this data only represents one year, and a lot more goes into placement power than simple NLJ placement.

Obviously, all the rankings in this thread are pure speculation. But if you want to base your predictions on anything, base them on changing medians, as employment stats are far too easily manipulated

UCLA still tops the three, if slightly. (GULC numbers just for fun )

GULC: 3.68/170
UCLA: 3.77/168
Vandy: 3.71/168
Texas: 3.71/167

[hokie]

T-MINUS 9 DAYS

[JusticeHarlan]

But if you want to base your predictions on anything, base them on changing medians, as employment stats are far too easily manipulated

UCLA still tops the three, if slightly. (GULC numbers just for fun )

GULC: 3.68/170
UCLA: 3.77/168
Vandy: 3.71/168
Texas: 3.71/167

If we're looking for the change in rankings, we shouldn't be looking at the absolute medians, we should be looking at the change in the medians. This actually helps your case, somewhat:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=128236

UCLA upped its GPA median by .02, but its LSAT was unchanged.

Vandy upped its GPA median by .01, and its LSAT by 1.

Texas was unchanged at both medians.

And, interestingly, GULC dropped its GPA by .01, without a change to its LSAT.

Thus, without knowing what happened with the other components of the rankings, it makes it more likely that UCLA would tie with GULC than Texas would. Between Vandy and UCLA, it depends how much Vandy's LSAT bump will matter. Of course, all this depends on how far the raw score gap between these schools were in the last rankings .

All idle speculation, both because the rankings will be out soon, and because they don't really matter. But always fun to muse over.

[JG Hall]

Just FYI for everyone who thinks Chicago is going to catch Columbia: CLS was closer to Stanford last year than Chicago was to CLS.

I just wish schools had to take into account the LLMs in calculating the "faculty resources," not because I want the big schools to plummet, but because maybe we wouldn't admit so many goddamn shitass LLMs.

And when are they going to get rid of the "library resources" bullshit?

[JCougar]

I think this is bound to happen eventually, but not in this year's rankings. This year's rankings will be based on the class of 2013...in which WUSTL had the same medians as before. WUSTL is really dumping money on this year's incoming class (2014) in order to raise their LSAT median to 168...which will push it ahead of USC (and Texas and Berkely, for that matter), and into a tie with UCLA and Cornell. But this change will affect next year's US News rankings.

Of course, entering class statistics are only one of a few metrics that make up the rankings. The assessment scores make up the majority of the score. But I think these are relatively stable year after year. WUSTL keeps making more and more good hires, though, and has gone nowhere but up in this category lately. Still, I think breaking into the T18 is a year away for WUSTL. For as much attention as the T14 gets, the 15-18 schools have been the same four for pretty much the last 10 years. Breaking into the T18 isn't easy.

Also, UCLA might run into problems down the road due to the California budget/tuition crisis. California public schools' tuition has shot into the stratosphere (likely costing Berkeley a drop in entering class medians last year). I'm wondering what the long-term effect on UCLA will be (as well as the added regional competition from UCI...in fact, this may help bring down both UCLA and USC).

[jay115]

I think this is bound to happen eventually, but not in this year's rankings. This year's rankings will be based on the class of 2013...in which WUSTL had the same medians as before. WUSTL is really dumping money on this year's incoming class (2014) in order to raise their LSAT median to 168...which will push it ahead of USC (and Texas and Berkely, for that matter), and into a tie with UCLA and Cornell. But this change will affect next year's US News rankings.

Of course, entering class statistics are only one of a few metrics that make up the rankings. The assessment scores make up the majority of the score. But I think these are relatively stable year after year. WUSTL keeps making more and more good hires, though, and has gone nowhere but up in this category lately. Still, I think breaking into the T18 is a year away for WUSTL. For as much attention as the T14 gets, the 15-18 schools have been the same four for pretty much the last 10 years. Breaking into the T18 isn't easy.

Also, UCLA might run into problems down the road due to the California budget/tuition crisis. California public schools' tuition has shot into the stratosphere (likely costing Berkeley a drop in entering class medians last year). I'm wondering what the long-term effect on UCLA will be (as well as the added regional competition from UCI...in fact, this may help bring down both UCLA and USC).

I just found this out today: UCLA Law has been self-sufficient from the general university for a while - I don't know how many years. The UC Chancellor just sent out a campus-wide email discussing how CA is cutting funding for the UC system, but how the law school and graduate school of education are self-sufficient and do not receive state funds.

I don't know why UCLA does in-state and out-of-state tuition when they don't receive state funding, but I imagine Berkeley and UCLA are following the Michigan and Virginia funding models.

Also, I'm not hating on WUSTL, but WUSTL has some terrible biglaw statistics.

[JCougar]

I think this is bound to happen eventually, but not in this year's rankings. This year's rankings will be based on the class of 2013...in which WUSTL had the same medians as before. WUSTL is really dumping money on this year's incoming class (2014) in order to raise their LSAT median to 168...which will push it ahead of USC (and Texas and Berkely, for that matter), and into a tie with UCLA and Cornell. But this change will affect next year's US News rankings.

Of course, entering class statistics are only one of a few metrics that make up the rankings. The assessment scores make up the majority of the score. But I think these are relatively stable year after year. WUSTL keeps making more and more good hires, though, and has gone nowhere but up in this category lately. Still, I think breaking into the T18 is a year away for WUSTL. For as much attention as the T14 gets, the 15-18 schools have been the same four for pretty much the last 10 years. Breaking into the T18 isn't easy.

Also, UCLA might run into problems down the road due to the California budget/tuition crisis. California public schools' tuition has shot into the stratosphere (likely costing Berkeley a drop in entering class medians last year). I'm wondering what the long-term effect on UCLA will be (as well as the added regional competition from UCI...in fact, this may help bring down both UCLA and USC).

I just found this out today: UCLA Law has been self-sufficient from the general university for a while - I don't know how many years. The UC Chancellor just sent out a campus-wide email discussing how CA is cutting funding for the UC system, but how the law school and graduate school of education are self-sufficient and do not receive state funds.

I don't know why UCLA does in-state and out-of-state tuition when they don't receive state funding, but I imagine Berkeley and UCLA are following the Michigan and Virginia funding models.

Also, I'm not hating on WUSTL, but WUSTL has some terrible biglaw statistics.

Our class of 2010 had a pretty bad year, but typically, we're around 27-28% biglaw. I'm not sure why we lag behind other T20 schools in this regard, other than we're relatively new to the T20. Not being in a huge home legal market probably has something to do with it. There's also a fair amount of people here who simply really don't want to go to NYC or Chicago. Lots of people from medium-sized Midwestern towns whose main goal is to head back home to work at the biggest firm in town...which is not necessarily NLJ 250. I think the type of people that are Biglaw or bust tend to flock to schools in bigger cities...and avoid St. Louis.

I don't want to make too many excuses, though. We definitely don't place people like USC or GW do.

[FiveSermon]

Vandy jumps, Cornell jumps, Berkeley drops. Maybe some changes between MVP CCN but no school moves beyond it's relative peers.

[jay115]

Our class of 2010 had a pretty bad year, but typically, we're around 27-28% biglaw. I'm not sure why we lag behind other T20 schools in this regard, other than we're relatively new to the T20. Not being in a huge home legal market probably has something to do with it. There's also a fair amount of people here who simply really don't want to go to NYC or Chicago. Lots of people from medium-sized Midwestern towns whose main goal is to head back home to work at the biggest firm in town...which is not necessarily NLJ 250. I think the type of people that are Biglaw or bust tend to flock to schools in bigger cities...and avoid St. Louis.

I don't want to make too many excuses, though. We definitely don't place people like USC or GW do.

USC also took a shit last year. They only placed 50 people in biglaw firms. And I am hating on USC.

[Hannibal]

Apparently I have to post this everywhere.

Biglaw placement is not equivalent to education quality. NLJ placement is also a very skewed metric. USNWR does not give a shit.

[FiveSermon]

No one cares about educational quality. People want jobs.

[Hannibal]

No one cares about educational quality. People want jobs.

Ostensibly, a better education would make you a better lawyer and get you jobs past initial placement.

That said, that point is exactly as relevant to the point as yours was to the debate over USNWR places: not at all. Make a TLS Rankings system.

[jay115]

No one cares about educational quality. People want jobs.

Ostensibly, a better education would make you a better lawyer and get you jobs past initial placement.

That said, that point is exactly as relevant to the point as yours was to the debate over USNWR places: not at all. Make a TLS Rankings system.

I don't know whether your suggested relationship between educational "quality" and job prospects is as strong as you suggest, but NLJ rankings are helpful in determining job prospects.

Granted, NLJ is slanted towards east coast firms and doesnt account for clerkships, but I would imagine that midlaw firms that pay market or smaller Southern/West Coast firms that pay market wouldn't pay market to take a mediocre kid from a regional school. That said, I know some 2Ls who are somewhere around 40% of their class at UCLA who have firm jobs for this summer. Hell, 4 kids in my 1L section have firm jobs. So yes, NLJ isn't a perfect ranking, but I do think it's useful for prospective applicants who are looking at law schools via biglaw prospects.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, what I'm saying is that an increase in comparative NLJ250 placement means nothing for the USNWR, which is what we're talking about.

[SrLaw]

WUSTL = The most overrated UG+Law School in the country. I hear this from every school counselor/alums/law partners that I have met. It is a great school, but it is vastly overrated.

[ohyouknow]

WUSTL = The most overrated UG+Law School in the country. I hear this from every school counselor/alums/law partners that I have met. It is a great school, but it is vastly overrated.

As a former Wash U undergrad, I would never say the undergrad is overrated. NO ONE has ever heard of it.

[SrLaw]

WUSTL = The most overrated UG+Law School in the country. I hear this from every school counselor/alums/law partners that I have met. It is a great school, but it is vastly overrated.

As a former Wash U undergrad, I would never say the undergrad is overrated. NO ONE has ever heard of it.

I am up in the Mid-Atlantic and my HS counselor loves WUSTL, however, the other 3 say it is too expensive and not worth the price tag. You get a good education without any connections. A lot of schools in the EggHead Eight "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University ... ssociation" are good schools that provide great educations but hardly any name rec.

[Cupidity]

Chicago down
Penn down
UVA down
GWU down
Iowa Down
Indiana Down
Davis Down
Georgia Down

NYU up
Northwestern up
BU up
BC up
Wisconsin up
Fordham up

[Pricer]

Chicago down
Penn down
UVA down
GWU down
Iowa Down
Indiana Down
Davis Down
Georgia Down

NYU up
Northwestern up
BU up
BC up
Wisconsin up
Fordham up

I see UGA falling down this year because it still has a 164 median, and then back up next year with a 165 median for incoming class of 2011. I would like to see UGA permanently in the top 30, regardless if I go there or not.

[HugitOut]

These rankings are more indicative and correlated higher with the lawyer/prestige component than the National Law Jurist numbers (which are much more elastic year to year and penalize schools with higher clerkship percentages)

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... aw-schools

[paulinaporizkova]

These rankings are more indicative and correlated higher with the lawyer/prestige component than the National Law Jurist numbers (which are much more elastic year to year and penalize schools with higher clerkship percentages)

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... aw-schools

why would you need an alt for this?