Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

[kwais]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

choosing WUSTL over Yale for purely $ reasons goes over the line from being debt averse into the category of cowardly and stupid

[sparty99]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

Wow this is really uncredited... I mean really bad. So you're "certain" you say? I'm "certain" this isn't the first time you've been wrong when using the term "certain." Anyways, credit isn't a bad thing if you leverage it well.... and have you bothered to figure out what the payment on a 100k student loan over 20-30 years is? Look it up... if you think that's crippling debt, I don't think you're ready for adult land yet. Yes, no debt is better than debt, but it's absolutely stupid to make generalizations as though your shallow view applies crucially to everyone.

I'm already an adult. I paid off a $25,000 Toyota. It took 5 years. Let me tell you, not having to pay that $500 monthly car payment is a RELIEVE. WHo cares what your monthly payments are. Debt is debt. Spending 20-30 years to pay off something sounds like hell. Now, I'm all for law school, I'm thinking about it too. My undergrad was paid for by parents and summer contributions from myself. After paying apartment payments, car payments, 401(k) investing, six month emergency fund, cell phone, lunch, etc, - i'm telling you, life is tough. I've been laid off and have survived (also had to move in with my parents). If I didn't have savings or had a $100k debt, my life would of been hell. It was already horrible having to apply to Banana Republic knowing that I had a college degree. You don't think about this stuff coming out of undergrad. You just think, "hey, I can make the payments" or I'll be making $xxx amount, I can afford this.

I also worked in a higher power industry where I thought, "If I didn't go to Harvard, I couldn't get a job there." But I did. My coworkers went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford. I went to a major public university. Do employers care where you got your degree? Yes, the snobbish ones...But my public university degree has landed interviews at Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, Bain, etc...Will a Yale graduate be a better attorney or more marketable than a Wash U, Texas, or UCLA grad? DOUBTFUL. Once you get in the door, no one cares about your degree. They care about how you work with clients, how you bring in more money for the firm, and that you don't F-up. This is your life, but I just hope you would really consider going $200k for a law degree. You can go part-time, get scholarships, work 3 years and save, etc.

[kwais]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

Wow this is really uncredited... I mean really bad. So you're "certain" you say? I'm "certain" this isn't the first time you've been wrong when using the term "certain." Anyways, credit isn't a bad thing if you leverage it well.... and have you bothered to figure out what the payment on a 100k student loan over 20-30 years is? Look it up... if you think that's crippling debt, I don't think you're ready for adult land yet. Yes, no debt is better than debt, but it's absolutely stupid to make generalizations as though your shallow view applies crucially to everyone.

I'm already an adult. I paid off a $25,000 Toyota. It took 5 years. Let me tell you, not having to pay that $500 monthly car payment is a RELIEVE. WHo cares what your monthly payments are. Debt is debt. Spending 20-30 years to pay off something sounds like hell. Now, I'm all for law school, I'm thinking about it too. My undergrad was paid for by parents and summer contributions from myself. After paying apartment payments, car payments, 401(k) investing, six month emergency fund, cell phone, lunch, etc, - i'm telling you, life is tough. I've been laid off and have survived (also had to move in with my parents). If I didn't have savings or had a $100k debt, my life would of been hell. It was already horrible having to apply to Banana Republic knowing that I had a college degree. You don't think about this stuff coming out of undergrad. You just think, "hey, I can make the payments" or I'll be making $xxx amount, I can afford this.

I also worked in a higher power industry where I thought, "If I didn't go to Harvard, I couldn't get a job there." But I did. My coworkers went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford. I went to a major public university. Do employers care where you got your degree? Yes, the snobbish ones...But my public university degree has landed interviews at Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, Bain, etc...Will a Yale graduate be a better attorney or more marketable than a Wash U, Texas, or UCLA grad? DOUBTFUL. Once you get in the door, no one cares about your degree. They care about how you work with clients, how you bring in more money for the firm, and that you don't F-up. This is your life, but I just hope you would really consider going $200k for a law degree. You can go part-time, get scholarships, work 3 years and save, etc.

No one is going to say that you are wrong, that this is not a gamble. However, I have had lawyers and other professionals say that this kind of educational debt was the best money they've ever spent. So on one side, we have people for whom this gamble worked out. On the other, we have people (like you) for whom something went wrong and soured you on certain life decisions. Neither is indicative of what is going to happen to those of us who choose to take out the loans. It will be what it will be. I for one, have given it a lot of thought, and decided that DESPITE the risk, it is the path I want to take. This doesn't make me an idiot.
So, take that chip on your shoulder and unload it somewhere else. Thanks

[powerlawyer06]

I'm already an adult. I paid off a $25,000 Toyota. It took 5 years. Let me tell you, not having to pay that $500 monthly car payment is a RELIEVE. WHo cares what your monthly payments are. Debt is debt. Spending 20-30 years to pay off something sounds like hell. Now, I'm all for law school, I'm thinking about it too. My undergrad was paid for by parents and summer contributions from myself. After paying apartment payments, car payments, 401(k) investing, six month emergency fund, cell phone, lunch, etc, - i'm telling you, life is tough. I've been laid off and have survived (also had to move in with my parents). If I didn't have savings or had a $100k debt, my life would of been hell. It was already horrible having to apply to Banana Republic knowing that I had a college degree. You don't think about this stuff coming out of undergrad. You just think, "hey, I can make the payments" or I'll be making $xxx amount, I can afford this.

I also worked in a higher power industry where I thought, "If I didn't go to Harvard, I couldn't get a job there." But I did. My coworkers went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford. I went to a major public university. Do employers care where you got your degree? Yes, the snobbish ones...But my public university degree has landed interviews at Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, Bain, etc...Will a Yale graduate be a better attorney or more marketable than a Wash U, Texas, or UCLA grad? DOUBTFUL. Once you get in the door, no one cares about your degree. They care about how you work with clients, how you bring in more money for the firm, and that you don't F-up. This is your life, but I just hope you would really consider going $200k for a law degree. You can go part-time, get scholarships, work 3 years and save, etc.

You hit it right on the head. Once you get in the door no one cares. However, getting in the door to a 160k corporate law job is hard. In fact it is almost impossible outside of the T14. This isn't finance, I was in that industry too. No one cared about anything except how much money you brought in the month prior. Many of the jobs people in this thread are going for are only available to the top 5% of the law students at the schools you are talking about. At HYSCCN over 50% of the class gets into Big Law or a Federal Clerkship that could lead to big law. Over time, the difference in what these graduates make compared to a Wash U grad makes the 200k price tag seem like nothing.

If your only goal is to get a JD then yeah maybe 200k is very expensive. If you want to earn a JD and make a ton of money then you need to think about the 200k as an investment in your potential future earnings. And unlike investing in the stock market and other securities this is an investment you have 100% control over. It will pay out as much effort as you put into it.

Sorry to rant but this is a debt support thread not a debt bashing thread.

[beachbum]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

Wow this is really uncredited... I mean really bad. So you're "certain" you say? I'm "certain" this isn't the first time you've been wrong when using the term "certain." Anyways, credit isn't a bad thing if you leverage it well.... and have you bothered to figure out what the payment on a 100k student loan over 20-30 years is? Look it up... if you think that's crippling debt, I don't think you're ready for adult land yet. Yes, no debt is better than debt, but it's absolutely stupid to make generalizations as though your shallow view applies crucially to everyone.

I'm already an adult. I paid off a $25,000 Toyota. It took 5 years. Let me tell you, not having to pay that $500 monthly car payment is a RELIEVE. WHo cares what your monthly payments are. Debt is debt. Spending 20-30 years to pay off something sounds like hell. Now, I'm all for law school, I'm thinking about it too. My undergrad was paid for by parents and summer contributions from myself. After paying apartment payments, car payments, 401(k) investing, six month emergency fund, cell phone, lunch, etc, - i'm telling you, life is tough. I've been laid off and have survived (also had to move in with my parents). If I didn't have savings or had a $100k debt, my life would of been hell. It was already horrible having to apply to Banana Republic knowing that I had a college degree. You don't think about this stuff coming out of undergrad. You just think, "hey, I can make the payments" or I'll be making $xxx amount, I can afford this.

I also worked in a higher power industry where I thought, "If I didn't go to Harvard, I couldn't get a job there." But I did. My coworkers went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford. I went to a major public university. Do employers care where you got your degree? Yes, the snobbish ones...But my public university degree has landed interviews at Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, Bain, etc...Will a Yale graduate be a better attorney or more marketable than a Wash U, Texas, or UCLA grad? DOUBTFUL. Once you get in the door, no one cares about your degree. They care about how you work with clients, how you bring in more money for the firm, and that you don't F-up. This is your life, but I just hope you would really consider going $200k for a law degree. You can go part-time, get scholarships, work 3 years and save, etc.

Thanks for the lecture, bro. Now kindly STFU and GTFO.

[icouldbuyu]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

You have a sub-150 LSAT. Stop hating on other people who will be attending Top Schools.

[sparty99]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

You have a sub-150 LSAT. Stop hating on other people who will be attending Top Schools.

My LSAT score has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm also attending a "top school."

[TheStrand]

You want to come talk to us about "borrower is a slave to lender" because your parents paid for your education and then you "had" to take out $25k to buy a toyota and you thought paying that back was "hard" because you had to pay for rent and food? LOL. YOU have never had to pay off a large debt. I won't even go into the ridiculousness of "100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage."

As for your argument that "You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York where a studio can run $2000" I'm tired of people who don't know anything about New York running their mouths spouting inanities and inaccuracies about the living costs here. Don't be so lazy. Spend 10 minutes on craigslist ffs. And while you're at it, think about the stupidity of saying you shouldn't take on debt to go to law school/endeavor towards a 160k a year job because SOME studios in a city CAN cost $2000.

[beachbum]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

You have a sub-150 LSAT. Stop hating on other people who will be attending Top Schools.

My LSAT score has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm also attending a "top school."

Dude, just shut up. Get off your soapbox. We don't want you here. This is the thread for those of us who have decided to take the debt-plunge to offer support to one another, not to get lectured by some jackass who had to pay off a Toyota once. You're not going to change our minds unless you have some truly eye-opening new data that we haven't yet seen. So unless you're bringin the big guns, kindly crawl back under your rock.

Also, you couldn't break median on the LSAT (LOL), and you're attending a "top school"? I would love to know which school it is. Is it "Top 80"? And what year are you? I want to hear about the great choices you've made and the awesome job you have lined-up that would give you some legitimate ground to lecture at us.

[northwood]

this is an investement in your future. if you really want to be a lawyer- and you are going to thebest school possible, have exhausted all you can on lsat prep and dont mind paying sticker- then congrats! A lot of people may say that its a bad decision, but if its what you want to do, and its your chance to make a dream come true, then do it. Im assuming that the majority of people in this thread are looking at T1 schools at sticker, or have a great scholarship, and some debt from UG hanging over their heads. Lecturea all you want, but there are plenty of people who went into debt for other things that arent necessary to pursue their career dreams!

[sparty99]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

You have a sub-150 LSAT. Stop hating on other people who will be attending Top Schools.

My LSAT score has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm also attending a "top school."

Dude, just shut up. Get off your soapbox. We don't want you here. This is the thread for those of us who have decided to take the debt-plunge to offer support to one another, not to get lectured by some jackass who had to pay off a Toyota once. You're not going to change our minds unless you have some truly eye-opening new data that we haven't yet seen. So unless you're bringin the big guns, kindly crawl back under your rock.

Also, you couldn't break median on the LSAT (LOL), and you're attending a "top school"? I would love to know which school it is. Is it "Top 80"? And what year are you? I want to hear about the great choices you've made and the awesome job you have lined-up that would give you some legitimate ground to lecture at us.

I mean, whatever. The OP landed $95,000 scholarship at UT-Austin and he'd rather go $200k in debt at Columbia? The big firms that recruit NYC, have offices in Dallas and Houston. These firms also have "lateral transfers" to other offices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

[LLB2JD]

Checking in. I am staring at attending school at sticker price, and it is staring at me back in the eye. I keep telling myself, and random folks who would listen to me that I am making the right decision. Time would tell though.

[sparty99]

Checking in. I am staring at attending school at sticker price, and it is staring at me back in the eye. I keep telling myself, and random folks who would listen to me that I am making the right decision. Time would tell though.

Boston College or University of Wisconsin would love you.....

[beachbum]

I mean, whatever. The OP landed $95,000 scholarship at UT-Austin and he'd rather go $200k in debt at Columbia? The big firms that recruit NYC, have offices in Dallas and Houston. These firms also have "lateral transfers" to other offices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

Cool story, bro. Thanks for playing.

[Helmholtz]

You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

lol no

There are V100 firms with main offices in cities like Pittsburgh, Houston, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Seattle, Richmond, St. Louis, Dallas, Cleveland, etc.

[FiveSermon]

All this talk about people who want to take on $100-200k debt is foolish and naive. I am certain none of you have had to pay off a large debt before, because if you have, you'd think TWICE about going $200k in debt.

If you can get into Yale, then you can easily get a full-ride at Washington U St. Louis or another high quality institution. It's easy to say you can pay it off, people said that about mortgages. But 100% of the houses in foreclosure have a mortgage. You can't bankrupt student loans and you're not even preparing for risk. What if you don't get an associate job, what if you have a medical mishap (your appendix bursts), what if we have another recession? Whatever happens - good or bad - you will have that $200,000 leach on your neck...sucking your blood. Every paycheck you get will go first to Fannie Mae. You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

The borrower is slave to the lender!

You have a sub-150 LSAT. Stop hating on other people who will be attending Top Schools.

My LSAT score has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm also attending a "top school."

Dude, just shut up. Get off your soapbox. We don't want you here. This is the thread for those of us who have decided to take the debt-plunge to offer support to one another, not to get lectured by some jackass who had to pay off a Toyota once. You're not going to change our minds unless you have some truly eye-opening new data that we haven't yet seen. So unless you're bringin the big guns, kindly crawl back under your rock.

Also, you couldn't break median on the LSAT (LOL), and you're attending a "top school"? I would love to know which school it is. Is it "Top 80"? And what year are you? I want to hear about the great choices you've made and the awesome job you have lined-up that would give you some legitimate ground to lecture at us.

He/she could be a URM.

[Malcolm8X]

Any historical metric we can use on students (particularly law students of course) who graduated with such debt levels and grim job prospects?
I would first think to look back to the dot com bubble burst, BUT the thing is tuition rates just were not that high back then.

Basically, what I'm looking for is a sort of case study of what managing high debt levels are like on a $60K/$90K/$120K salary. Anecdotal evidence/people with first or second hand experience is welcome.

[FiveSermon]

Sticker @ Cornell financial suicide when having options for $$ at fordham/GW?

[PDaddy]

It's Columbia and I admit it is crazy. However, there are hundreds of threads outlining the reasons not to do it, so this one is for those who have decided to take this chance.

For anyone dying to talk people out of it, please find another thread.

If you make top 20-30% at CLS you'll be set. In a good economy you would only need to make top 60%, or even below that, to make BigLaw. Remember that grads from top schools get all of the plum PI and gov't sector jobs as well as clerkships. So, if the Top 60% could go BigLaw in a good economy, top 20-30% in this economy should be good.

[TheStrand]

Any historical metric we can use on students (particularly law students of course) who graduated with such debt levels and grim job prospects?
I would first think to look back to the dot com bubble burst, BUT the thing is tuition rates just were not that high back then.

Basically, what I'm looking for is a sort of case study of what managing high debt levels are like on a $60K/$90K/$120K salary. Anecdotal evidence/people with first or second hand experience is welcome.

Eh depending on what you consider high debt I might have anecdotal evidence. 110k debt, 42k salary first year, 53k salary now (pathetic yes, but I had notions of public service). I think the debt is pretty manageable at 53k a year and I live in NY so if you live somewhere else it will probably be extremely doable. But I haven't finished paying and if you're older with a family that's going to be pretty hard. I'm not sure what you're looking for though, and really I think roughly speaking anyone who paid their way through undergrad at a private university is probably able to give you a similar situation to a JD graduating with debt and crappy job prospects.

[xyzbca]

If your only goal is to get a JD then yeah maybe 200k is very expensive. If you want to earn a JD and make a ton of money then you need to think about the 200k as an investment in your potential future earnings. And unlike investing in the stock market and other securities this is an investment you have 100% control over. It will pay out as much effort as you put into it.

Sorry to rant but this is a debt support thread not a debt bashing thread.

Thanks for the laugh....

Listen, I'm not trying to dash anybody's dreams or bash anybody for taking out a ton of debt, but I would like to share an alternative approach.

Law school is a gamble. Like most other forms of gambling, if done correctly and within reason, it is okay. However, if you start making bets that you can't afford to lose, you now have a problem. Most people have a wide range of possible outcomes in the LS game. The spectrum looks something like this:

Worst case scenario: $200k in debt and no job/low paying job.
Best case scenario: No debt and $160k salary at your dream employer in your dream city.

If you are really, truly willing to live with the worst case scenario you should take on the debt. In other words, if you can afford to lose the bet you should make the bet. If you think that there is a possibility that you will be unhappy with the worst case scenario (like 99% of the people that end up in that scenario) then you should do everything in your power to take that possibility out of the equation. You shouldn't make the bet if you can't afford to lose it.

[lisjjen]

You want $160,000 job? Well, that only comes in high price cities. Like New York, where a studio can run $2,000...

lol no

There are V100 firms with main offices in cities like Pittsburgh, Houston, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Seattle, Richmond, St. Louis, Dallas, Cleveland, etc.

lol no

Those V100 aren't paying 160k. Unless you're in SF, LA, DC or NY, you'll be making 140k or less because the price of living is lower.

That being said, I keep circling UMich @ sticker, so despite my negativity, I belong in this thread.

[sullidop]

lol no

Those V100 aren't paying 160k. Unless you're in SF, LA, DC, Boston or NY, you'll be making 140k or less because the price of living is lower.

That being said, I keep circling UMich @ sticker, so despite my negativity, I belong in this thread.

Edited for accuracy.

[lisjjen]

lol no

Those V100 aren't paying 160k. Unless you're in SF, LA, DC, Boston or NY, you'll be making 140k or less because the price of living is lower.

That being said, I keep circling UMich @ sticker, so despite my negativity, I belong in this thread.

Edited for accuracy.

Thanks bro. High five.

[Nogameisfair]

lol no

Those V100 aren't paying 160k. Unless you're in SF, LA, DC, Boston or NY, you'll be making 140k or less because the price of living is lower.

That being said, I keep circling UMich @ sticker, so despite my negativity, I belong in this thread.

Edited for accuracy.

Thanks bro. High five.

Also Texas. Can I get one?