NU 30k vs GULC vs SMU (full) vs UIUC (full) vs WUSTL 114k Forum

[YourCaptain]

I'm at SMU right now. You can certainly find an affordable place outside the Park Cities without much effort.

I'd say it's a toss-up between NU and SMU. Hard choice to make, but if you really are debt-averse, SMU for almost free isn't a bad choice.

Let me know if you have any questions.

This is your choice.

WUSTL and GULC have no business here.

NU = little more security, but you'll probably have to take biglaw.

SMU = less debt, less security.

[NU_Jet55]

"WUSTL 3L" is credited. If you go to WUSTL, you will NOT be "stuck in the Midwest." Yes, you will have the most options in the Midwest, but you won't be shut out of the Texas market. We have a ton of alumni in Texas, and for that matter, every other major market in the country.

It seems as though you're concerned about the "what if" of not finishing in the top of your class. If you finished in the top 15% of any of these schools, you'd be fine. However, if you finished in the bottom half of GULC or NU, good luck paying off that debt. If you compare SMU and WUSTL in this situation, I think WUSTL wins easily. At SMU, you're restricted to Dallas and to some extent the greater Texas market. You'll have no such limitations when sending out applications from WUSTL.

If you are truly risk-averse, WUSTL seems like the clear choice.

[thexfactor]

This is a tough choice. I kind of wish I hadn't ED to GULC, because part of me thinks that I might have rather gone to SMU for a lot less $. However, I wasn't sure how much if any money I would get from SMU, and I didn't expect any from UH, so that's why I did it. In your situation there's a lot to be said for SMU, and Dallas is a pretty nice place to live from what I've heard.

You will likely need top 10% to get biglaw out of SMU. Prob top 40% for georgetown/50% NU. Paying sticker for 30%-40% more chance is not a bad investment.

Look at it this way. If you go for free and end up not getting a job, it is a waste of 3 years of your time. At least if you get georgetown they have a good LRAP plan. Also you are prob more likely to get a non profit job in DC vs texas which will get all your loans forgiven in 10 years.

[quadsixm]

This is a tough choice. I kind of wish I hadn't ED to GULC, because part of me thinks that I might have rather gone to SMU for a lot less $. However, I wasn't sure how much if any money I would get from SMU, and I didn't expect any from UH, so that's why I did it. In your situation there's a lot to be said for SMU, and Dallas is a pretty nice place to live from what I've heard.

You will likely need top 10% to get biglaw out of SMU. Prob top 40% for georgetown/50% NU. Paying sticker for 30%-40% more chance is not a bad investment.

Look at it this way. If you go for free and end up not getting a job, it is a waste of 3 years of your time. At least if you get georgetown they have a good LRAP plan. Also you are prob more likely to get a non profit job in DC vs texas which will get all your loans forgiven in 10 years.

Well, 27.5% go to biglaw from WUSTL, so OP could actually improve his shot at biglaw by 17.5% for absolutely free. In fact, he would make $ for increasing his odds, due to the extra $14K in scholly and arguably lower COL in STL.

[thexfactor]

This is a tough choice. I kind of wish I hadn't ED to GULC, because part of me thinks that I might have rather gone to SMU for a lot less $. However, I wasn't sure how much if any money I would get from SMU, and I didn't expect any from UH, so that's why I did it. In your situation there's a lot to be said for SMU, and Dallas is a pretty nice place to live from what I've heard.

You will likely need top 10% to get biglaw out of SMU. Prob top 40% for georgetown/50% NU. Paying sticker for 30%-40% more chance is not a bad investment.

Look at it this way. If you go for free and end up not getting a job, it is a waste of 3 years of your time. At least if you get georgetown they have a good LRAP plan. Also you are prob more likely to get a non profit job in DC vs texas which will get all your loans forgiven in 10 years.

Well, 27.5% go to biglaw from WUSTL, so OP could actually improve his shot at biglaw by 17.5% for absolutely free. In fact, he would make $ for increasing his odds, due to the extra $14K in scholly and arguably lower COL in STL.

114k isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things if you get biglaw. The problem is if you miss biglaw you will likely get a job that pays 40k not 80k.
its like 27.5 vs 47 or so. I doubt wustl is placing that much right now. The number is more like 20% vs 40.

[quadsixm]

This is a tough choice. I kind of wish I hadn't ED to GULC, because part of me thinks that I might have rather gone to SMU for a lot less $. However, I wasn't sure how much if any money I would get from SMU, and I didn't expect any from UH, so that's why I did it. In your situation there's a lot to be said for SMU, and Dallas is a pretty nice place to live from what I've heard.

You will likely need top 10% to get biglaw out of SMU. Prob top 40% for georgetown/50% NU. Paying sticker for 30%-40% more chance is not a bad investment.

Look at it this way. If you go for free and end up not getting a job, it is a waste of 3 years of your time. At least if you get georgetown they have a good LRAP plan. Also you are prob more likely to get a non profit job in DC vs texas which will get all your loans forgiven in 10 years.

Well, 27.5% go to biglaw from WUSTL, so OP could actually improve his shot at biglaw by 17.5% for absolutely free. In fact, he would make $ for increasing his odds, due to the extra $14K in scholly and arguably lower COL in STL.

114k isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things if you get biglaw. The problem is if you miss biglaw you will likely get a job that pays 40k not 80k.
its like 27.5 vs 47 or so. I doubt wustl is placing that much right now. The number is more like 20% vs 40.

You're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of people, not on partner track, are out of biglaw within 5 years. Almost nobody will make a career out of it.

[thexfactor]

yea but once you work 3 years you can lateral, corp consel, midlaw, gov.....
It s not as hard to find a job once you have 3 years of work experience. The problem is getting your first job.

[quadsixm]

OP has stated a high level of debt aversion, so I think this comes down to WUSTL - SMU.
As I said, it's a regional battle - SMU for TX, WUSTL for anywhere else.

[keg411]

IMO, this should be Northwestern v. SMU. I'm sorry, but I don't see what place WUSTL has here, since OP wants to work in TX. And GULC should definitely be out.

OP, if I were you, I'd just take Northwestern unless you are extremely debt adverse and won't regret passing up the better school.

[ArchRoark]

This is a tough choice. I kind of wish I hadn't ED to GULC, because part of me thinks that I might have rather gone to SMU for a lot less $. However, I wasn't sure how much if any money I would get from SMU, and I didn't expect any from UH, so that's why I did it. In your situation there's a lot to be said for SMU, and Dallas is a pretty nice place to live from what I've heard.

You will likely need top 10% to get biglaw out of SMU. Prob top 40% for georgetown/50% NU. Paying sticker for 30%-40% more chance is not a bad investment.

Look at it this way. If you go for free and end up not getting a job, it is a waste of 3 years of your time. At least if you get georgetown they have a good LRAP plan. Also you are prob more likely to get a non profit job in DC vs texas which will get all your loans forgiven in 10 years.

Well, 27.5% go to biglaw from WUSTL, so OP could actually improve his shot at biglaw by 17.5% for absolutely free. In fact, he would make $ for increasing his odds, due to the extra $14K in scholly and arguably lower COL in STL.

114k isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things if you get biglaw. The problem is if you miss biglaw you will likely get a job that pays 40k not 80k.
its like 27.5 vs 47 or so. I doubt wustl is placing that much right now. The number is more like 20% vs 40.

114k isn't a lot if I land biglaw, but you have to factor in a number of other things. NU has the highest tuition out of the four (~49k) and close to the highest COL. Plus it isn't just 114k, but the interest that will accrue on the loans. Most of which will be 7.9% gradPLUS accruing while I am in school. I am highly debt averse, but I am still considering my T14 options. Right now, I am leaning towards SMU/WUSTL and need to figure out if I am that set on returning to Texas.

@kalvano; thanks, that is good to know. If I think of any questions about SMU, I will probably be PMing you.

@NU_Jet55; While I am confident in my academic abilities, I understand that no one can predict with any certainty where in the class they will end up. I am entertaining all these "what if" scenarios, top/middle/bottom of the class and how they would pan out in respect to each option. From everything I have seen/read about WUSTL it looks like an amazing school and it may be wise to forgo SMU's higher Texas placement for WUSTL's higher overall placement. I asked in the SMU thread about how grads are favoring. Here is his response:

Can any current SMU students speak to how the class is fairing on job prospects ITE?

Nobody seems to be getting 1L paying gigs with big firms. I've had two interviews and I'm hopeful about one (although it could probably be called more like a midlaw gig).

From the inexact research I did, I estimate that roughly 10-15% of the class of 2010 ended up with biglaw jobs and my guess is that when the NLJ releases its go-to-law schools list in the next few weeks we'll find that about 20-25% of the class ended up at NLJ250 jobs. Historically SMU has placed around 30% of its grads in those jobs.

[adt231]

FWIW, if you really are the sort of person that wants a dog that you are going to actually see more than one day a week after law school, then I'm not sure biglaw is the smartest plan; hence, cross off NU and GULC at sticker...

[kalvano]

The problem is if you miss biglaw you will likely get a job that pays 40k not 80k.

Not entirely correct in Dallas. There are a ton of mid-law firms that pay somewhere in the middle. Even the DA's make $60K here.

There are just so many business and firms here.


Also, for 1L work - very, very few paying 1L jobs. But no issues finding something legally-related to do. I already have some work lined up. Most of the 2L's I spoke to have something for their summer as well. I've spoken to around 5 or 6 that have a Biglaw something lined up, the rest something else, but usually paying.

Also, the market seems to be recovering here. All the students I've spoken with, and hiring partners / attorneys from firms are of the opinion that my class will have a much better OCI than last year's class. They seem to think that was rock-bottom.

I'm not saying everything is rosy, but the opportunities here seem much better than in other places. Undoubtedly, NU would give you great access to most anywhere, but Texas firms seem to highly prize connections to the state.

[ArchRoark]

My situation has slightly changed. I flew up to Dallas a few days ago and interviewed for the Sarah T Hughes scholarship, awarded to one or two minority candidates. I was informed that I was awarded it and I am heavily leaning towards SMU. However, UIUC also increased their offer to full-tuition and WUSTL mentioned that they would be able to re-evaluate my scholarship offer after the first seat deposit.

Current options I am considering:
Georgetown (sticker) aprox 200k COA
Northwestern (30k over 3 years) aprox 180k COA
SMU (Sarah T Hughes, full-tuition, possible stipend? unsure about the last part) aprox 30K COA
UIUC (full-tuition) aprox 30k COA
WUSTL (currently 114k scholarship, but would consider if it was raised to full tuition) aprox 30k COA

I don't have much interest in biglaw. I am from Texas and would love to return to Texas to practice. I am actually interested in criminal law, but I would love to have as many options open as possible. Am I foolish to pass up my T14 options for SMU? My current game plan is to submit deposits at WUSTL and SMU (both due by the 1st), fly up and visit NU/UIUC/WUSTL in 3-4day trip and then drive up to SMU one weekend to visit. Is there really that big of placement difference between T1 schools in the 20-50 range? I know the Sarah T Hughes isn't a Hamilton/Ruby/Darrow, but it is a named scholarship that would allow me, presumably, a chance to network with past scholars and other leaders within the Dallas legal community. I am pretty set on SMU and I just wanted to ensure that I am not crazy for passing up my other options or that I am not missing anything in my calculations.

I was notified by Georgetown that they were unable to award me merit aid in the first round of notifications. I just now submitted the last part of GULC's financial aid app, but it I submitted the "yellow-form" past their deadline.

[kalvano]

If you want criminal law, which I assume means the DA's office, then you would be very foolish not to attend school in the city in which you want to work for the DA. With the hiring market the way it is, the local DA's offices (excluding ones like NYC and such) have become very wary of people who are "settling" for the DA while they wait for a firm job to open up as opposed to people who really want to work for the DA. For instance, here in Dallas, the Dallas DA has been known to pass on top 10%'ers who never showed any interest in the DA until they discovered they didn't have a Biglaw job. They want to see a real commitment to the work. So if you have someone from SMU who has interned with them, helped out, knows the system, etc., versus someone from Georgetown who wants to be in Texas but has never done anything with the DA, they are probably going to pick the SMU student. Name on the JD doesn't seem to go as far. However, if you want to work for the DA in St. Louis or Chicago, then go to WUSTL or NU, respectively.

If you know for a fact that you want to end up in the Dallas DA's office, SMU would be the best choice. However, you'd be limiting yourself in terms of other opportunities. What if you change your mind and want Biglaw? That's a decision you have to make, but I will say that I don't think NU or Georgetown are worth anywhere near that much money compared to what you have from WUSTL or SMU.

I don't know enough about UIUC to comment on it, but it seems like it would be lower-ranked school in a market that is already pretty saturated with good schools, plus has a lot of T14 people that want in as well.

[09042014]

Both NU and GULC have decent public interest loan repayment plans. If you really want PI you'll pay next to nothing.

[Marionberry]

In DC right now, just finished with the GULC ASW. There was a heavy emphasis on PI and I really got the impression that they do a pretty good job of placing grads in that area. Of course, the whole was a sales pitch so it's surely not as promising as they made it seem, but that does seem the be the goal of a lot of students. Of course, given your options I don't know if GULC is even still in consideration, but I thought I'd throw that out there since LRAP was mentioned.

[kalvano]

I'm not saying GULC and NU don't have great LRAP programs. I'm just saying that if he truly wants to work for the DA's office, the name on the degree won't mean as much as how much time over the three years of law school he spent with the DA.

[09042014]

I'm not saying GULC and NU don't have great LRAP programs. I'm just saying that if he truly wants to work for the DA's office, the name on the degree won't mean as much as how much time over the three years of law school he spent with the DA.

Northwestern is in the heart of Chicago, giving a lot of opportunity for hands on experience. I'm sure SMU, and WUSTL are the same. I'm not sure how active Campaign County State's attorney's offices are.

[kalvano]

I'm not saying GULC and NU don't have great LRAP programs. I'm just saying that if he truly wants to work for the DA's office, the name on the degree won't mean as much as how much time over the three years of law school he spent with the DA.

Northwestern is in the heart of Chicago, giving a lot of opportunity for hands on experience. I'm sure SMU, and WUSTL are the same. I'm not sure how active Campaign County State's attorney's offices are.

Yes, but he said he wants to work in criminal law in Texas. My point is that NU or GULC would be great for working in a local Biglaw firm, but won't mean nearly as much to the DA.

[09042014]

I'm not saying GULC and NU don't have great LRAP programs. I'm just saying that if he truly wants to work for the DA's office, the name on the degree won't mean as much as how much time over the three years of law school he spent with the DA.

Northwestern is in the heart of Chicago, giving a lot of opportunity for hands on experience. I'm sure SMU, and WUSTL are the same. I'm not sure how active Campaign County State's attorney's offices are.

Yes, but he said he wants to work in criminal law in Texas. My point is that NU or GULC would be great for working in a local Biglaw firm, but won't mean nearly as much to the DA.

I didn't read the Texas part. That leads to say SMU.

[ArchRoark]

I am going to visit NU/UIUC/WUSTL in a couple weeks. Hopefully, this trip will help me make up my mind. While I am certainly leaning towards the public interest/service route, I place a lot of value on a school that would provide the most opportunities. Graduating with close to little debt from a solid T1 vs attending a T14 at nearly sticker... it is going to be a very hard decision.

[ahduth]

Chicago, although in ways similar to NYC, is IMHO more manageable. Both cities aren't that appealing, but I would lean to Chicago over NYC and NYC over being unemployed/drowned in debt.

Chicago really is a lot more manageable than NYC if you don't want to be overwhelmed by the city. Rents are lower, parking is easier/cheaper, it's easier to find housing in an area that isn't noisy, stuff like that. It's still a big city though, with tons of restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.

I'm not clear on why bringing the dog is a problem, tons of people own dogs here. If it's used to running around outside constantly, it'll be different, but... I dunno. I definitely see plenty of dogs around lol.

[ArchRoark]

Chicago, although in ways similar to NYC, is IMHO more manageable. Both cities aren't that appealing, but I would lean to Chicago over NYC and NYC over being unemployed/drowned in debt.

Chicago really is a lot more manageable than NYC if you don't want to be overwhelmed by the city. Rents are lower, parking is easier/cheaper, it's easier to find housing in an area that isn't noisy, stuff like that. It's still a big city though, with tons of restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.

I'm not clear on why bringing the dog is a problem, tons of people own dogs here. If it's used to running around outside constantly, it'll be different, but... I dunno. I definitely see plenty of dogs around lol.

Yah, I think I would enjoy living in Chicago the more I read/hear about it. The issue with bringing the dog is that most apartments (where I would likely end up) have breed restrictions. I have been lucky that I have had a very understandable landlord who doesn't buy into the 'pitbulls are dangerous/fighting dogs' mania.

I just took at a look at NALP for the schools I am considering... SMU 54 firms from Texas attend the OCI with 100 overall (there is a number of multi-city firms that inflate the number), NU 30 firms from Texas, GULC 31 firms, UIUC 6 firms, WUSTL 10 firms. This is to be expected, but overall it is rather depressing. SMU 100 firms attending OCI, NU 331, GULC 496, 142 WUSTL, 113 UIUC. Quite the difference.

[bball25]

Chicago, although in ways similar to NYC, is IMHO more manageable. Both cities aren't that appealing, but I would lean to Chicago over NYC and NYC over being unemployed/drowned in debt.

Chicago really is a lot more manageable than NYC if you don't want to be overwhelmed by the city. Rents are lower, parking is easier/cheaper, it's easier to find housing in an area that isn't noisy, stuff like that. It's still a big city though, with tons of restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.

I'm not clear on why bringing the dog is a problem, tons of people own dogs here. If it's used to running around outside constantly, it'll be different, but... I dunno. I definitely see plenty of dogs around lol.

Yah, I think I would enjoy living in Chicago the more I read/hear about it. The issue with bringing the dog is that most apartments (where I would likely end up) have breed restrictions. I have been lucky that I have had a very understandable landlord who doesn't buy into the 'pitbulls are dangerous/fighting dogs' mania.

I just took at a look at NALP for the schools I am considering... SMU 54 firms from Texas attend the OCI with 100 overall (there is a number of multi-city firms that inflate the number), NU 30 firms from Texas, GULC 31 firms, UIUC 6 firms, WUSTL 10 firms. This is to be expected, but overall it is rather depressing. SMU 100 firms attending OCI, NU 331, GULC 496, 142 WUSTL, 113 UIUC. Quite the difference.

Where did you find all of this information on the number of firms at OCI?

[ArchRoark]

Where did you find all of this information on the number of firms at OCI?

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