Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein Forum

[oxford_don]

This includes the Rubenstein, so it is a new thread idea.

I wanted to have a thread to both a) have people help me make my own decision and b) share thoughts on these scholarships. I have gotten into all of these schools and don't really see myself considering any others.

Alright, about me:

A. Who am I? I am one year out of undergrad, working at a small, high-profile criminal defense firm that handles terrorism, fraud, etc. cases in Chicago. Have had a decent amount of exposure to federal criminal defense in the job. I do not see myself doing criminal defense work out of law school, but more on that later.

B. Location? I am from Chicago and love the city. Friends and family are here. I am a big fan of Boston/Cambridge, have not been to New Haven, and have almost no desire to live or practice in New York. Columbia really is not a serious option for me, but wanted to include it in the list for others in the same position with different feelings about the school.

C. What do I want to do after law school? Tough question. I do want to clerk at the district or appellate court level because I would enjoy that type of work and the experience it offers. I have no delusions about a SCOTUS clerkship. Post-clerking, I see myself going to biglaw to do litigation with an emphasis on white collar criminal defense and government investigations. A few years into biglaw, I would consider becoming an AUSA or lateraling to a different firm/going in-house. Not sure I would be sticking it out for partner at biglaw.

D. Academia? Sure, I would love to be an academic. But when it comes down to it, I don't think I will be. I thought a lot about getting my phd and decided that I don't have the drive/ambition/obsession that you need for academia. So having the door open to academia--and federal government or prestigious PI for that matter--would be nice, but I am not sure that I will ever walk through it.

E. Money? My parents make too much of it, and they are not giving me any for law school. I am expecting $0 in grants from Harvard and Yale and with my undergraduate debt I am looking at around $230,000 in loans if I go there. Chicago with Rubenstein would be more like $60,000.

My gut is saying Chicago with the Rubenstein, but it will be hard turning down Harvard and Yale. I want to have that diploma and to carry that elite status with me for the rest of my life, but I am coming to terms with the fact that given my career ambitions and expected debt load, that those schools might not be in the cards for me. My impression is that my inner nerd is a good fit for Chicago and that I would enjoy my time there, graduate, and start my career without the crushing burden of $230,000 in debt. I also am fairly confident that I will do well in law school and will be able to find a job. Nobody can predict this, but I do not see myself in the bottom half of the class. I have decent connections in Chicago at some biglaw firms and at the US Attorney's Office.

I know I sound crazy to some people, but I am really considering the Rubenstein.

Thoughts?

Also, any other people in a similar situation should feel free to share their thoughts about their own decision. This is not a bad decision to have to make, but is certainly a hard decision.

[kwais]

Yale. I don't see many scenarios in which you regret Yale. If you didn't love Chicago I'd say no contest. Congrats and good luck

[MrPapagiorgio]

First off, I am ridiculously jealous of you. Second, I would pick Yale over Chicago (don't really think CLS or HLS are even in the picture here), unless having your family and friends around you is the most important thing.

Either way, you seem like you have worked hard for those options, so best of luck! You won't regret any of those choices anyway.

[jtemp320]

What you didn't get into SLS, no RTK or Darrow?

Look those options are incredible - the best anyone could wish for. You don't want to be in NY so lets rule out CLS and I don't see what Harvard has on Yale except location...

Yale is the only school I'd say is worth taking on that kind of debt when you could go to a school the caliber of Chicago with a full tuition scholarship. Of course it depends what you want to do but I think the debt and the fact that New Haven is not exactly most people's ideal location is easily surpassed by Yale's placement and the academic experience of Yale. But then again you seem to have good reasons to want to be in Chicago and if you do well at UChi there is very little to nothing you can't do...

Congrats and the best suggestion I can give is take the money and time to visit (all 4 if possible) ASDs - it may help clarify some.

[JeNeRegretteRien]

First off, I am ridiculously jealous of you. Second, I would pick Yale over Chicago (don't really think CLS or HLS are even in the picture here), unless having your family and friends around you is the most important thing.

Either way, you seem like you have worked hard for those options, so best of luck! You won't regret any of those choices anyway.

Yale. I don't see many scenarios in which you regret Yale. If you didn't love Chicago I'd say no contest. Congrats and good luck

Agree with both the quoted answers, for exactly the reasons they described.

[Knock]

Sounds like you should go with the Rubenstein, since you aren't a big New York fan. $230k in debt is a lot. If you can get your parents to pony up though you should go to Yale.

[Veyron]

I just came by to say LOL I hate you.

On a more serious vein, once you get out of Biglaw and do ASUA, Yale's LRAP should become the equivelant of a very large scholarship. Besides, you don't turn down Yale.

[oxford_don]

What you didn't get into SLS, no RTK or Darrow?

Didn't apply to SLS, Michigan stiffed me on the Darrow and gave me something like $37k a year in scholarship money, and RTK? I thought I spent enough time on these boards to know everything...

[gbpackerbacker]

I see no reason to choose Harvard or Columbia, but you're the genius of the two of us. Congrats on your awesome choices.

[MrPapagiorgio]

Besides, you don't turn down Yale.

TITCR

[joemoviebuff]

You sir, could use a poll up in this here thread.

It will tell you to go to Yale.

[oxford_don]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

[CanadianWolf]

Chicago suits you well & it is a lot nicer than New Haven.

[Veyron]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

Yale opens doors that your average T-10, T-3, whatever just doesn't. Its not unusual to land a V5 from median and the Yale degree will put you first in line for almost everything for the rest of your life.

Harvard, CLS, and Chicago grads are far more "common." The difference between a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Mercedes, and a Bugatti (Veyron) if you will

[drylo]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

Because not many people are in love with Chicago and can go there for free...?

[MrPapagiorgio]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

You are clearly no idiot. But, in short, you do not turn down Yale because it will open doors to any law that you want (PI, academia, clerkship, biglaw). With Yale, you will have nearly any offer you want. Chicago will give you fantastic opportunities, too. But in the legal community, you cannot fail with Yale (really didn't try to rhyme that).

[IvanFK]

170k is a huge amount of money to pay for the jump in prestige, what do you believe you can get out from yale that you cannot from chicago that is worth 170k, especially considering that you're not terribly interested in academia?

or so is my line of reasoning in voting for chicago

(i am also biased)

[drylo]

170k is a huge amount of money to pay for the jump in prestige, what do you believe you can get out from yale that you cannot from chicago that is worth 170k, especially considering that you're not terribly interested in academia?

TCR. You have to answer this for yourself, but considering the circumstances, it sounds like you already know the answer...

[Emma.]

Incredible choices. Congrats, you can't go wrong. Well, maybe picking HLS would be going wrong

I love UChi but gotta go with YLS on this one.

[Ghost]

.

[rundoxierun]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

This is a TLS myth. People turn down Yale for money fairly often.

ETA: I voted Rubenstein.

[rundoxierun]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

Yale opens doors that your average T-10, T-3, whatever just doesn't. Its not unusual to land a V5 from median and the Yale degree will put you first in line for almost everything for the rest of your life.

Harvard, CLS, and Chicago grads are far more "common." The difference between a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Mercedes, and a Bugatti (Veyron) if you will

This is not the difference between these cars at all.

[paulinaporizkova]

Yale denies you. You do not deny Yale.

[dbrddr]

Besides, you don't turn down Yale.

Yale denies you. You do not deny Yale.

LOL, I'd get hooted off TLS if I ever made this sort of moot-matriculation poll re: the unbelievably complicated decision I'm facing.

oxford_don, have you considered asking each school's admissions office to put you in touch with a professor you're interested in working with?

[notanumber]

I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.

This is a TLS myth. People turn down Yale for money fairly often.

ETA: I voted Rubenstein. Have you officially been offered it yet?

Looking at the admission statistics, "fairly often" is about 20% of the time at most. Not to say that it's a bad idea, just that most people faced with this decision still go to Yale.

To the OP: IMHO, it depends on how risk averse you are. Yale is, by a decent amount, the safer choice. You can be middling, or even a bit less than middling, at YLS and still have a shot at a good clerkship and a very good biglaw job - it'll be more dependent on how you set yourself up and less dependent on grades. Chicago is a much bigger risk. If it turns out that you're bad at issue-spotting (or just slightly worse at issue-spotting than the average driven, intelligent UChicago student) you may be SOL despite all your well-laid plans. You say that you "do not see myself in the bottom half of the class" but at this level, nobody sees themselves in the bottom half of the class. . .

That being said, if you do well at Chicago you'll be almost exactly where you would be if you were at YLS and you would have and extra 150K in your pocket. Not bad at all.

Also, remember that the comparison isn't Chicago to New Haven. It's Hyde Park to New Haven. You don't go to either school for the ambiance.

If I were presented with those options I'd probably still choose YLS, but reasonable people might make the other choice. . .