NYU (sticker) vs. Fordham ($$) vs. Cardozo (full) Forum

[Frankie55]

I know there are a plethora of T50-NY related threads right now, so I apologize, but I couldn't find one with these exact numbers.

NYU at sticker, Fordham with about a half scholarship, or Cardozo with a guaranteed full--what would you take? Obviously someone with these results probably has other options in the T14, but let's leave those aside for now. Let's assume the applicant has no rich uncles, and would be taking out loans for everything. I know TLS is very prestige-oriented, but would going to Cardozo with a guaranteed full really be that bad? Is it really that likely that you'll end up on JDUnderground? If you don't pull amazing numbers and get biglaw, is a 40k job really that bad if you're coming out with no debt? Or would you just suck it up on the loans and assume NYU is a better bet?

[bk1]

This is pretty easily NYU.

I might have hesitated a second if it had been Fordham with a full ride (though this is unlikely b/c Fordham is stingy), but even then I think NYU is an easy call to make.

ETA: NYU gives much better options for either biglaw or PI to cover your debt (the latter using LRAP). I guess if you just want to work at a small firm that doesn't pay much then maybe 'Dozo for free, but the chance of ending up unemployed seems kinda scary to me. Fordham is the worst option of the 3 you have.

[Frankie55]

Thanks for the advice. I guess ITE hasn't really shifted attitudes/options that severely then.

[bk1]

Thanks for the advice. I guess ITE hasn't really shifted people's attitudes that severely then.

NYU is good enough to justify taking it over a full ride.

Some say HYS or full ride but I honestly think that the T6 are still better than a full ride to a bad T1. As you get lower into the T14 and especially at the weaker schools (Cornell/GULC) it gets iffier. I would probably say a full ride at a good T1 is better than a lower T14, but a full ride at a bad T1 is more of a toss up.

[Frankie55]

Indeed. I guess I will have to make another thread when the lower T14 offers start trickling in.

[ahnhub]

Honestly if you got into NYU you should be able to get $$ at a T14.

[Tiago Splitter]

Honestly if you got into NYU you should be able to get $$ at a T14.

I wouldn't be too sure.

OP, a full ride at Dozo still means you pay for living expenses. Making 40-50K a year in a lot of places isn't bad but when you come out with 60-80K in debt from living expenses alone life will suck. Not to mention that 40-50K is nothing in NYC, and Dozo will almost certainly place you there if it places you anywhere.

[dingbat]

It really depends on your perspective.
Dozo will leave you in debt for living expenses, but if you can keep that down, it's possible to walk out needing only $200k/month or so for repayment, which is not that bad. If you want to be in NY and don't care about biglaw it's a valid option. If you plan on a clerkship, PI or any other option open to young attorneys, not having a boatload of debt is a serious advantage.

If you're gunning for biglaw, you'll have more options at NYU than at Fordham (forget about Dozo) and it's worth taking on the additional debt. Practically speaking, you're borrowing a crapload for a 25% chance, or an even bigger crapload for a 50% chance. If you make it to biglaw, you'll be able to pay off either. If you don't make it, you're screwed either way. Take NYU.

If you're ok with going to a medium size firm, it becomes a bit trickier. Both NYU and Fordham place about 70% of their students with law firms, so saving some $75k (??) in tuition going to Fordham might give you a more comfortable life once you're out. Working for a mid-size law firm might be a better lifestyle choice (less stress/hours?), but that's something you should talk to practicing attorneys about.

To sum up:
If you do not intend to work at a law firm, coming out of Dozo with little debt is a serious consideration as you are financially able to take just about any job you can get.
If you're "biglaw or bust" then NYU is worth paying sticker
If you plan on working for a law firm, but are willing to work at a small or mid-size firm, or want to hedge your bet in case you don't get biglaw (a valid possibility even at NYU) then Fordham is a less risky proposition. Also, it's a less cut-throat environment.

Think about what your goals are. Then think about your risk tolerance. Remember that 1/5 of students at NYU can't land a biglaw job and that could quite easily be you. (edit: last year 60% worked at law firms and I assume another 20% self-select out of it, based on previous years' stats for PI and Clerkship)

[dingbat]

Also, US News ranks 'Dozo higher for IP than both NYU and Columbia (something I personally find hard to believe)

[20130312]

Also, US News ranks 'Dozo higher for IP than both NYU and Columbia (something I personally find hard to believe)

Erroneous! Erroneous on both counts!

[dingbat]

Also, US News ranks 'Dozo higher for IP than both NYU and Columbia (something I personally find hard to believe)

Erroneous! Erroneous on both counts!

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings

Like I said, I find it hard to believe, but 'Dozo's ranked 5th, while Columbia and NYU are tied at 8th

[Nelson]

Also, US News ranks 'Dozo higher for IP than both NYU and Columbia (something I personally find hard to believe)

Erroneous! Erroneous on both counts!

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings

Like I said, I find it hard to believe, but 'Dozo's ranked 5th, while Columbia and NYU are tied at 8th

You give consistently terrible advice.

OP: if these are your only three options, then go to NYU and don't even think twice.

[skers]

NYU isn't just a better choice for big law. It's a better choice for PI as well with it's stellar LRAP.

[dingbat]

You give consistently terrible advice.

OP: if these are your only three options, then go to NYU and don't even think twice.

So is turning down a free ride to pay sticker if you don't intend to go to biglaw.

[skers]

You give consistently terrible advice.

OP: if these are your only three options, then go to NYU and don't even think twice.

So is turning down a free ride to pay sticker if you don't intend to go to biglaw.

NYU isn't just a better choice for big law. It's a better choice for PI as well with it's stellar LRAP.

[dingbat]

NYU isn't just a better choice for big law. It's a better choice for PI as well with it's stellar LRAP.

Agreed; although you'll need to stay in an "eligible public interest position" for 10 years (which is not that bad, but, what if you hate your PI job?).

[skers]

NYU isn't just a better choice for big law. It's a better choice for PI as well with it's stellar LRAP.

Agreed; although you'll need to stay in an "eligible public interest position" for 10 years (which is not that bad, but, what if you hate your PI job?).

And what if you graduate from Cardozo tuition-debt free (don't forget living expenses in NYC) and hate your shit law job?

[vamedic03]

It really depends on your perspective.
Dozo will leave you in debt for living expenses, but if you can keep that down, it's possible to walk out needing only $200k/month or so for repayment, which is not that bad. If you want to be in NY and don't care about biglaw it's a valid option. If you plan on a clerkship, PI or any other option open to young attorneys, not having a boatload of debt is a serious advantage.

If you're gunning for biglaw, you'll have more options at NYU than at Fordham (forget about Dozo) and it's worth taking on the additional debt. Practically speaking, you're borrowing a crapload for a 25% chance, or an even bigger crapload for a 50% chance. If you make it to biglaw, you'll be able to pay off either. If you don't make it, you're screwed either way. Take NYU.

If you're ok with going to a medium size firm, it becomes a bit trickier. Both NYU and Fordham place about 70% of their students with law firms, so saving some $75k (??) in tuition going to Fordham might give you a more comfortable life once you're out. Working for a mid-size law firm might be a better lifestyle choice (less stress/hours?), but that's something you should talk to practicing attorneys about.

To sum up:
If you do not intend to work at a law firm, coming out of Dozo with little debt is a serious consideration as you are financially able to take just about any job you can get.
If you're "biglaw or bust" then NYU is worth paying sticker
If you plan on working for a law firm, but are willing to work at a small or mid-size firm, or want to hedge your bet in case you don't get biglaw (a valid possibility even at NYU) then Fordham is a less risky proposition. Also, it's a less cut-throat environment.

Think about what your goals are. Then think about your risk tolerance. Remember that 1/5 of students at NYU can't land a biglaw job and that could quite easily be you. (edit: last year 60% worked at law firms and I assume another 20% self-select out of it, based on previous years' stats for PI and Clerkship)

This is why 0Ls should not give advice.

(1) The suggestion that someone who wants to clerk should attend Cardozo to minimize debt is absolutely ridiculous: (a) clerkships are based on class rank+school rank and (b) clerking is a 1-2 year stepping stone in your career. Most people who clerk go on to big law.

(2) The suggestion that someone who wants to do PI should attend Cardozo to minimize debt over attending a school with an excellent LRAP is ridiculous. The NYU grad will (a) have better PI options and (b) be backed up by a great LRAP.

(3) The suggestion that MidLaw is: (a) at all easy to obtain or (b) offers better hours tends to be a bit silly. Click over on the legal employment forum to learn more about the fact that: (a) midlaw hires far, far fewer associates (especially new grads) and (b) midlaw generally doesn't offer that much better hours.

(4) How is Fordham: (a) less "cutthroat" than NYU or (b) a less risky proposition than NYU?

(5) Why cite, as you do below, IP rankings? Specialty rankings are a joke.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Loads of bad advice in here.

Fordham should not even be in the discussion. Their strength until recently was that they were good enough to give you a decent shot at biglaw if you didn't get into NYU or CLS. This is no longer true. NYU is easily worth another $60-75k in debt or so.

Cardozo with a full ride might be worth considering, if you are that concerned about the debt. Still, it's hard to overstate the difference in employment prospects. It's not just the difference between $160k jobs and $40k jobs. It's the difference between having a $160k job lined up 2L year and having to scramble after passing the bar to hopefully find someone who will hire you for a $40k job. Cardozo is really, really rough. Loads of people are unemployed. It's a mess out there. NYU obviously doesn't place like it used to, but people are still relatively secure. All the same, if the thought of owing $225,000 keeps you up at night, there could be a sliver of an argument for taking a full ride.

OP, I go to NYU and have close friends who are 2Ls/3Ls at Fordham and Cardozo and would be happy to talk about this more if you want to PM me.

[Guchster]

Loads of bad advice in here.

Fordham should not even be in the discussion. Their strength until recently was that they were good enough to give you a decent shot at biglaw if you didn't get into NYU or CLS. This is no longer true. NYU is easily worth another $60-75k in debt or so.

Cardozo with a full ride might be worth considering, if you are that concerned about the debt. Still, it's hard to overstate the difference in employment prospects. It's not just the difference between $160k jobs and $40k jobs. It's the difference between having a $160k job lined up 2L year and having to scramble after passing the bar to hopefully find someone who will hire you for a $40k job. Cardozo is really, really rough. Loads of people are unemployed. It's a mess out there. NYU obviously doesn't place like it used to, but people are still relatively secure. All the same, if the thought of owing $225,000 keeps you up at night, there could be a sliver of an argument for taking a full ride.

OP, I go to NYU and have close friends who are 2Ls/3Ls at Fordham and Cardozo and would be happy to talk about this more if you want to PM me.

I seriously am in love with dixiecup.

To all the 0Ls giving advice, I think as a 0L, it's hard to understand how much living expenses affect your life, as well as competition, for that one that commented about it earlier. If you're worried about competition, I'd imagine that a place like Fordham/Cardozo is way more cut throat then NYU -- you're fighting for your life at those places (to be in the top 10%), whereas at NYU you can kick back knowing that most people are going to be okay.

Cardozo may be free, and even if they paid for your living expenses, it's still not going to do you any favors long term. Debt can go away in a few years at NYU even if you're median pwn3d--not so true at Cardozo, unless they pay for everything, and even then.... Getting a 160k job to pay your debt or getting LRAP to give you all the monies for a PI job not only covers the short term, but the school networking opportunities go a long way in the bigger picture of things.

[bk1]

Nobody noticed that the timestamp on the posts starts with 2011 and then goes to 2012?

[Nelson]

Nobody noticed that the timestamp on the posts starts with 2011 and then goes to 2012?

Epic necro troll by ahnhub, even matching up the dates and everything.

[Guchster]

Nobody noticed that the timestamp on the posts starts with 2011 and then goes to 2012?

Epic necro troll by ahnhub, even matching up the dates and everything.

Wow I missed it. I saw bk and assumed this was recent. god damn this necro troll. some of the best work i've ever seen by one here on TLS.


10/10 for execution.

[Guchster]

What did OP do? And what did you wish you would've done?

[dixiecupdrinking]

Christ. Oh well.

Looks like he went to UVA: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p4325942.