Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

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rose711
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Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:31 am


EDIT: Yes I was very wrong, see the list of offers made to summer associates at NYC firms listed on NALP that I posted down the thread. :)


I keep seeing this figure of biglaw job starting salary of $160,000. I have not found any hard numbers on how many jobs actually offer that salary. I'm assuming they are first year jobs at a small handful of big firms in NYC -say the top 15 at most. If each of those firms hires 50 people - that is only 750 people.

Am I wrong in these estimates?

Also is it known for sure how much of that salary is a discretionary bonus?

Finally, none of these high paying jobs come with any guarantees of future employment, so you could be out in a year? Or, even put in a holding pattern (the furlough plan) and eventually let go with a relatively small severance.

So this is my question: forgetting what law schools report and going from the firms actually offering these salaries...how many of these jobs are there?
Last edited by rose711 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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WVUCelticFan
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby WVUCelticFan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:35 am

Unless I am mistaken, almost all the big firms in NYC and DC pay 160k to first-year associates. A few (Wachtell comes to mind) pay a bit more, while big firms in smaller markets (Atlanta, etc) pay closer to 145k.

ran12
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby ran12 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:40 am

WVUCelticFan wrote:Unless I am mistaken, almost all the big firms in NYC and DC pay 160k to first-year associates. A few (Wachtell comes to mind) pay a bit more, while big firms in smaller markets (Atlanta, etc) pay closer to 145k.


Yea and even some of the midlaw firms in those markets will pay over 100k. The 50 associates hired per firm makes no sense whatsoever.

rose711
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:44 am

So how many firms are we talking about here? And what is the size of the class? I just want to get an actual number of these potential jobs because I haven't seen a real number. To be honest, I think the number is pretty low compared to the number of graduates, even from the top schools, but I want to have a real figure, not a guess, and I would be happy to be proved wrong!
Last edited by rose711 on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

ran12
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby ran12 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:46 am

rose711 wrote:So how many firms are we talking about here? And what is the size of the class?


Go to NALP's website and do some research. I don't know the size of each class b/c of all the cuts in the past few years but I guess the biggest firms take on around a dozen or so.

rose711
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:49 am

I'm sure the biggest firms take on more than a dozen people, they have multiple departments that need staffing. But I'm not sure what firms you consider big and medium firms

Actually, I'm surprised no one here already has this figure, as this $160,000 number is brought up a lot.

I would bet there are fewer than a thousand jobs at $160,000.

jaestro
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby jaestro » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:55 am

So is it accurate to assume that all big law jobs pay 120-160 depending on market? Or if someone goes to a much less prestigious school, does the pay change? Also, I guess I have not done enough research into the types of law practiced in big law, but would all the sexier branches of the firm (if there are any) goto the kids who went to top schools?

Z3RO
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby Z3RO » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:03 pm

If you're willing to leaf through to about page 30, you can start to get some good info out of this. Page 43 is where it gets really fun.

http://www.americanlawyer-digital.com/a ... /se09#pg43

$$$$$$
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby $$$$$$ » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:03 pm

why are you posting this nonsense? It's pretty much all wrong. Go to the NALP directory, spend 1 hour and figure it out.

ran12
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby ran12 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:04 pm

jaestro wrote:So is it accurate to assume that all big law jobs pay 120-160 depending on market? Or if someone goes to a much less prestigious school, does the pay change? Also, I guess I have not done enough research into the types of law practiced in big law, but would all the sexier branches of the firm (if there are any) goto the kids who went to top schools?


Biglaw does pay that depending on market. The pay doesn't change based on prestige. Either they hire you or they don't based on prestige a lot of the time. Biglaw in general will always look to tab kids from top schools first. A lot of the times when someone from a less prestigous school gets hired, it's b/c he either as connections, is just an absolutely remarkable person, or one of the big guns at the firm is from that school or has some sort of soft spot for it.

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thesealocust
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby thesealocust » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:12 pm

There are fewer of these jobs in the downturn than there were before, but solid estimates (by combining salary / employment data from several different sources) suggests that there are on the order of 5,000 "big law" jobs available to graduates every year. Probably fewer during the downturn, probably more during 'boom times' - but something around that number.

Of those +/- 5K "big law" jobs, a substantial amount - probably a majority but only a slim one - go to the graduates of the top 14 law schools in any given year. The other half or so go to students (well connected, top, etc.) from the other ~180 law schools in the country.

The biggest law firms routinely take on the order 100 people into their law firm for the summer. Skadden took 300+ spread across their offices in the U.S. and abroad during boom-times.

Defining big law is difficult, but anything in the Am Law 100 or Vault 100 definitely is - and it would be hard to argue that any firm in the NLJ 250 was NOT big law, but towards the bottom of the list you see firms that people wouldn't traditionally associate with "big law." Salary is 160,000 / year for all 1st year associates in major markets (LA, DC, Chicago, NYC) with few exceptions, and plenty of other markets (SF, Texas cities, etc.) are at-or-near that salary scale. Other cities have less need for big law, since it focuses on major corporate work, but large law firms still pay competitive salaries, usually at or near 6 figures. The concentration of big firm jobs is in big cities with significant corporate presence, however.

Every year about 100,000 take the LSAT, about 50,000 GO to law school, and about 45,000 graduate FROM law school.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has estimated that there are something like 35,000 entry level legal jobs every year (from a combination of growth and openings due to retirements / lateral moves / etc.).

For jobs that aren't "big law" there are a small number that will pay around 100K regardless, but those kinds of firms tend to hire very few people and don't impact the overall numbers much. The much larger group is in the 30-60K range, and encompasses positions in the government, public interest positions, and positions at firms that don't deal in gigantic corporate work. Think: Family law (divorce, custody), immigration law, plaintiff's attorneys for smaller cases, corporate work for smaller / local corporations, small scale criminal defense, etc.

Many legal jobs which people will eventually take - such as working as a lawyer "in house" for a corporation - are very lucrative (6 figure salary + stock) but are all but off-limits to new legal grads. They tend to hire people who are coming from large law firms. Likewise many smaller specialized law firms chiefly hire graduates from bigger firms who have experience rather than recruiting out of law school.

Turnover at large law firms is huge (and one reason for the big salaries was to entice people to stay). It's a grueling job. A "rule of thumb" is that about a third of the class leaves every 2 years at major firms, and the odds of any given first year associate making partner in the firm at which they start is often a single digit percentage. Smaller firms tend to have better - but still bleak - partnership prospects. Much of this is because people leave as opposed to being 'forced out' or fired, however.

Sorry for the lack of sources, but hopefully that information helps put things in perspective.
Last edited by thesealocust on Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby dextermorgan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:14 pm

Um... http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

Do your own research. You will need those skills.

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WVUCelticFan
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby WVUCelticFan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:23 pm

thesealocust wrote:There are fewer of these jobs in the downturn than there were before, but solid estimates (by combining salary / employment data from several different sources) suggests that there are on the order of 5,000 "big law" jobs available to graduates every year. Probably fewer during the downturn, probably more during 'boom times' - but something around that number.

Of those +/- 5K "big law" jobs, a substantial amount - probably a majority but only a slim one - go to the graduates of the top 14 law schools in any given year. The other half or so go to students (well connected, top, etc.) from the other ~180 law schools in the country.

The biggest law firms routinely take on the order 100 people into their law firm for the summer. Skadden took 300+ spread across their offices in the U.S. and abroad during boom-times.

Defining big law is difficult, but anything in the Am Law 100 or Vault 100 definitely is - and it would be hard to argue that any firm in the NLJ 250 was NOT big law, but towards the bottom of the list you see firms that people wouldn't traditionally associate with "big law." Salary is 160,000 / year for all 1st year associates in major markets (LA, DC, Chicago, NYC) with few exceptions, and plenty of other markets (SF, Texas cities, etc.) are at-or-near that salary scale. Other cities have less need for big law, since it focuses on major corporate work, but large law firms still pay competitive salaries, usually at or near 6 figures. The concentration of big firm jobs is in big cities with significant corporate presence, however.

Every year about 100,000 take the LSAT, about 50,000 GO to law school, and about 45,000 graduate FROM law school.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has estimated that there are something like 35,000 entry level legal jobs every year (from a combination of growth and openings due to retirements / lateral moves / etc.).

For jobs that aren't "big law" there are a small number that will pay around 100K regardless, but those kinds of firms tend to hire very few people and don't impact the overall numbers much. The much larger group is in the 30-60K range, and encompasses positions in the government, public interest positions, and positions at firms that don't deal in gigantic corporate work. Think: Family law (divorce, custody), immigration law, plaintiff's attorneys for smaller cases, corporate work for smaller / local corporations, small scale criminal defense, etc.

Many legal jobs which people will eventually take - such as working as a lawyer "in house" for a corporation - are very lucrative (6 figure salary + stock) but are all but off-limits to new legal grads. They tend to hire people who are coming from large law firms. Likewise many smaller specialized law firms chiefly hire graduates from bigger firms who have experience rather than recruiting out of law school.

Turnover at large law firms is huge (and one reason for the big salaries was to entice people to stay). It's a grueling job. A "rule of thumb" is that about a third of the class leaves every 2 years at major firms, and the odds of any given first year associate making partner in the firm at which they start is often a single digit percentage. Smaller firms tend to have better - but still bleak - partnership prospects. Much of this is because people leave as opposed to being 'forced out' or fired, however.

Sorry for the lack of sources, but hopefully that information helps put things in perspective.


Much better than my post. Thanks for the extra info.

wildcats2008
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby wildcats2008 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:32 pm

Also, keep in mind the cost of living adjustment you need to make. Big law firms that have offices
in multiple cities (NYC, Chicago, Houston, DC, Bay Area etc.) usually pay the same rate at every office.
Clearly, there is a difference in the standard of living between what $160,000 gets you in Manhattan vs. Chicago vs. Houston.

Here's a COL calculator. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but if it's anywhere close, it's illuminating.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sav ... lator.aspx

rundoxierun
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:48 pm

There are usually about 4,600 t-14 graduates a year and, in a normal economy, somewhere around 60-70% of them can get biglaw for a total 2,760-3,220 graduates in biglaw. Based on that, I would say somewhere in the 5,000-7,000 range for total biglaw jobs. Biglaw is tricky to define but we can say its roughly large firms that pay ~145k+ with variations depending on city. In addition, there are a lot of smaller firms that pay well over six figures but as individual firms they usually only take on less than 5 associates per year and often only interview at top schools.

The median amount of time in biglaw is somewhere around 3 years I believe. The 160k figure is most often base salary so that doesnt include the discretionary bonus.

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nealric
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby nealric » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:52 pm

If I remember correctly, number of entry-level biglaw (defined as NALP-member firms paying 160k market or secondary market rate) slots has fluctuated between 2,500 and 5,000 or so. There are something like 25,000 new law school grads per year. So between 10 and 20% of law school grads get what can be defined as biglaw.

160k is the base pay. Market bonus for first year associates in NYC (other markets are hit or miss on bonus) has fluctuated from 30k (2007) to 7.5k (2010).

I'm a first-year associate at a 160k NYC firm if you have any questions about what it's like.

rose711
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:17 pm

NOTE: I DID A POST WITH THE COMPLETE LIST FOR ALL FIRMS IN THE NALP DIRECTORY IN NEW YORK CITY: SCROLL DOWN TO SEE IT!!!


So during the Jets game I worked a bit on a list of firms and offers made in New York. No great revelations, a few big firms hire a large number of people for the NYC office and most everyone else hires handfuls. I will keep working on it but this is what I got so far:

Akin Gump - offers 15 - 160,000
Alston Bird offers 4
Anster, Rothstein offers 1 - 135,000
Andrews Kurth offers 1 - 160,000
Arent Fox offers 0(?) - 145,000
Arnold Porter offers 5 - 160,000
Axinn, Veltrop offers 0 - 160,000
Total = 5

Baker, Hostetler offfers 5 - 160,000
Baker &Mckenzie offers 7 - 160,000
Baker Botts offers 2 - 160,000
Bingham McCutcheon offers 9 $160,000
Blank Rome offers 3 - $145,000
Boies offers 25 $174,000 *note all offices not just NYC
Bracewell offers 5 $160,000
Brown, Rudnick offers 9 salary not stated
Bryan Cave offers 4 $145,000
Total = 69

Cadwalader offers 26 $160,000
Cahill offers 37 $160,000
Carter, Ledyard offers 3 $130,000
Chadbourne Park offers 14 $160,000
Chapman Cutler offers 0 salary not reported
Cleary Gotleib offers 96 $160,000
Clifford Chance offers 24 $160,000
Cooley, Godward offers 8 $160,000
Cooper, Dunham offers 0 $145,000
Covington and Burling offers 9 $160,000
Cravath offers 118 $160,000
Crowell offers 3 $160,000
Curtis, Mallett-Provost offers 9 $160,000
Total =347

Davies Ward offers 1 $160,000
Davis Polk (New York office) offers 111 $160,000
Day Pitney offers 0 salary not reported
Debovoise offers 108 salary $160,000
Dechert offers 119 salary $160,000
Dewey &Lebouf offers 62 salary 160,000
Dickstien Shapiro offers 10 salary $145,000
DLA Piper offers 15 salary not reported
Dorsey and Whitney offers 2 salary not reported
Total =428

Epstein Becker offers 1 salary not reported
Total 1

[At this point I got bored and jumped to the end to start in reverse. I may fill this in later if anyone else cares about these numbers.]

Thompson Hine Not reported 2 the previous year compensation not noted
Troutman Sanders offers 3 $160,000 compensation
Total 3

No U firms

Vedder Price offers 2 compensation $145,000
Venable offers 3 compensation $135,000
Vinson & Elkins offers 9 compensation $160,000
Total 14

Wachtell offers 24 compensation $165,000
Weil Gotshal offers 86 compensation $160,000
White and Case offers 56 compensation $160,000
Wilkie Farr offers 49 compensation $160,000
Wimer Hale offers 11 compensation $160,000
Wilson Sonsin offers 3 compensation $160,000
Winston and Strawn offers 20 compensation $160,000
Total =249

No X, Y or Z firms
Last edited by rose711 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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WVUCelticFan
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby WVUCelticFan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:26 pm

rose711 wrote:So during the Jets game I worked a bit on a list of firms and offers made in New York. No great revelations, a few big firms hire a large number of people for the NYC office and most everyone else hires handfuls. I will keep working on it but this is what I got so far:

Akin Gump - offers 15 - 160,000
Alston Bird offers 4
Anster, Rothstein offers 1 - 135,000
Andrews Kurth offers 1 - 160,000
Arent Fox offers 0(?) - 145,000
Arnold Porter offers 5 - 160,000
Axinn, Veltrop offers 0 - 160,000
Total = 5

Baker, Hostetler offfers 5 - 160,000
Baker &Mckenzie offers 7 - 160,000
Baker Botts offers 2 - 160,000
Bingham McCutcheon offers 9 $160,000
Blank Rome offers 3 - $145,000
Boies offers 25 $174,000 *note all offices not just NYC
Bracewell offers 5 $160,000
Brown, Rudnick offers 9 salary not stated
Bryan Cave offers 4 $145,000
Total = 69

Cadwalader offers 26 $160,000
Cahill offers 37 $160,000
Carter, Ledyard offers 3 $130,000
Chadbourne Park offers 14 $160,000
Chapman Cutler offers 0 salary not reported
Cleary Gotleib offers 96 $160,000
Clifford Chance offers 24 $160,000
Cooley, Godward offers 8 $160,000
Cooper, Dunham offers 0 $145,000
Covington and Burling offers 9 $160,000
Cravath offers 118 $160,000
Crowell offers 3 $160,000
Curtis, Mallett-Provost offers 9 $160,000
Total =347

Davies Ward offers 1 $160,000
Davis Polk (New York office) offers 111 $160,000
Day Pitney offers 0 salary not reported
Debovoise offers 108 salary $160,000
Dechert offers 119 salary $160,000
Dewey &Lebouf offers 62 salary 160,000
Dickstien Shapiro offers 10 salary $145,000
DLA Piper offers 15 salary not reported
Dorsey and Whitney offers 2 salary not reported
Total =428

Epstein Becker offers 1 salary not reported
Total 1

[At this point I got bored and jumped to the end to start in reverse. I may fill this in later if anyone else cares about these numbers.]

Thompson Hine Not reported 2 the previous year compensation not noted
Troutman Sanders offers 3 $160,000 compensation

No U firms

Vedder Price offers 2 compensation $145,000
Venable offers 3 compensation $135,000
Vinson & Elkins offers 9 compensation $160,000
Total 14

Wachtell offers 24 compensation $165,000
Weil Gotshal offers 86 compensation $160,000
White and Case offers 56 compensation $160,000
Wilkie Farr offers 49 compensation $160,000
Wimer Hale offers 11 compensation $160,000
Wilson Sonsin offers 3 compensation $160,000
Winston and Strawn offers 20 compensation $160,000
Total =249

No X, Y or Z firms


Thanks for the very useful post. Not sure if itd be worth knowing all the firms in between, but I'm curious of some of the bigger/better known ones (Skadden, Jones Day, Orrick, Quinn Emanuel off the top of my head) could be interesting. How did you find the info?

rose711
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:29 pm

I used the NALP site and used the dropdown menu to specify New York. Then I looked at each firm's profile.

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_quick.asp#

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chadwick218
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby chadwick218 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:34 pm

NALP is your primary resource. From my research, ~25% of firms provide first year salary information on their websites.

Here is such an example from an AMLAW 100 Texas firm.

http://www.andrewskurth.com/careers-stu ... efits.html

rose711
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Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby rose711 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:44 pm

So I decided to combine the list into one post, which I'm still working on. Note: I tried to keep the list to NYC, which is what I care about although I may have included some offices from other cities in New York. I will go back if I can and double check.)

Akin Gump - offers 15 - 160,000
Alston Bird offers 4
Anster, Rothstein offers 1 - 135,000
Andrews Kurth offers 1 - 160,000
Arent Fox offers 0(?) - 145,000
Arnold Porter offers 5 - 160,000
Axinn, Veltrop offers 0 - 160,000
Total = 26

Baker, Hostetler offfers 5 - 160,000
Baker &Mckenzie offers 7 - 160,000
Baker Botts offers 2 - 160,000
Bingham McCutcheon offers 9 $160,000
Blank Rome offers 3 - $145,000
Boies offers 25 $174,000 *note all offices not just NYC
Bracewell offers 5 $160,000
Brown, Rudnick offers 9 salary not stated
Bryan Cave offers 4 $145,000
Total = 60
total 69 with salary not sated

Cadwalader offers 26 $160,000
Cahill offers 37 $160,000
Carter, Ledyard offers 3 $130,000
Chadbourne Park offers 14 $160,000
Chapman Cutler offers 0 salary not reported
Cleary Gotleib offers 96 $160,000
Clifford Chance offers 24 $160,000
Cooley, Godward offers 8 $160,000
Cooper, Dunham offers 0 $145,000
Covington and Burling offers 9 $160,000
Cravath offers 118 $160,000
Crowell offers 3 $160,000
Curtis, Mallett-Provost offers 9 $160,000
Total =347

Davies Ward offers 1 $160,000
Davis Polk (New York office) offers 111 $160,000
Day Pitney offers 0 salary not reported
Debovoise offers 108 salary $160,000
Dechert offers 119 salary $160,000
Dewey &Lebouf offers 62 salary 160,000
Dickstien Shapiro offers 10 salary $145,000
DLA Piper offers 15 salary not reported
Dorsey and Whitney offers 2 salary not reported
Total =411
total salary not reported 428

Epstein Becker offers 1 salary not reported
Total 0
total salary not reported 1

Fish & Richardson P.C. offers 1 salary 160,000
Fitzpatrick offers 14 salary $160,000
Foley & Lardner -offers 1 salary $160,000
Fox Rothschild offers 1 salary $125,000
Fragomen, offers 0 salary $125,000
Freshfields offers 10 salary $160,000
Fried, Frank offers 28 salary $160,000
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman no offers reported salary $160,000
Frommer lawrence 3 offers salary not reported
Fulbright & Jaworski 5 offers salary not reported

Total offers 55 (with salary over 100,000)
total offers including no salary reported 63

Garvey Schubert Barer offers 0 salary $130,000
Gibson,Dunn (New York) offers 43 salary $160,000
Goodwin Proctor offers 8 salary $160,000
Greenberg Traurig, LLP (New York) offers 9 salary not given
Gunderson Dettmer Stough no offers reported, 2 summer associates salary $160,000
Total offers 60

Hahn & Hessen offers 2 salary $145,000
Harris Beach (new york city) offers 2 salary $100,000
Hawkins Delafield & Wood offers 0 salary not reported
Haynes and Boone (nyc) offers 40 salary not reported
Herrick, Feinstein offers 5 salary $130,000
Hodgson Russ offers 1 salary $125,000
Hogan Lovells (nyc office only I think) offers 12 salary not reported
Holland & Knight offers 4 salary $130,000
Howrey LLP (nyc) no offers listed no salary listed
Hughes Hubbard and Reed 32 offers $160,000
Hunton & Williams 2 offers salary not listed
Total offers 46
100 offers including no salary reported

I no entries


Jackson Lewis no offers or compensation reported
Jenner & Block 3 offers $160,000 salary
Jones Day - New York offers 24 compensation $160,000
Total offers 27


K&L Gates offers 4 salary not given
Kasowitz Benson (all offices) offers 14 salary $160,000
Katten, Munchin offers 7 salary $145,000
Kaye Scholer offers 15 salary $160,000
Kelley Drye & Warren offers 5 salary not listed
Kenyon offers 15 salary $145,000
Kilpatrick Stockton offers 2 salary not reported
King & Spalding offers 5 salary not reported
Kirkland &Ellis offers 41 (note 32 expected to start) salary not given
Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel offers 25 salary $160,00
Total = 81
total including salary not reported = 134

Latham and Watkins offers 25 salary $160,000
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P (all offices) no offers reported salary $110,000
Linklaters LLP (11 offices on form) 27 offers salary $160,000
Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell (nyc) 1 offer salary $160,000
Loeb &Loeb (nyc) 0 offers, salary $160,000
Lovells LLP 5 offers salary not reported
Total = 53
total including salary not reported= 58

Mayer Brown offers 25 salary $160,000
McDermott Will & Emery offers 15 salary not stated
Milbank, Tweed offers 51 salary $160,000
Mintz, Levin, (nyc) offers 2 salary $160,000
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius offers 8 (note they report having 23 summer associates) compensation not stated
Morrison & Forester (nyc) offers 9 salary$160,000
Moses & Singer offers 4 salary $121,500
Mound Cotton Wollan & Greengrass (all offices) 2 salary $100,000
Total = 97
total without compenation stated =120


Nixon, Peabody offers made 6 salary $145,000 (new york office)
Total 6

O'Melveny & [deleted] (nyc) offers 16 salary $160,00
Olshan Grundman Frome Rosenzweig & Wolosky offers 2 salary 150,000
Orrick, Herrington offers 13 salary $160,000
Otterbourg, Steindler, Houston & Rosen offers 2 salary not given
Total 31
total including salary not reported 33

Patterson Belknap offers 14 salary $160,00
Patton Boggs offers 5 salary $160,000
Paul, Hastings (nyc) offers 25 (note reports a summer class of 42) salary $160,000
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind offers 98 salary $160,00
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman offers 6 salary $160,000
Proskauer offers 71 salary $160,000
Pryor Cashman offers not reported and salary not reported
Total =219

Quinn Emanuel offers 36 salary $160,000 (all offices)
Total 36

Reed Smith (nyc) offers 3 salary $130,000
Richards, Kibbe offers not reported salary $145,000
Roberts & Holland offers not reported salary $160,000
Ropes & Gray 65 salary $160,000
Total 68

Sadis & Goldberg (not reported)
Satterlee Stephens offers 0 salary $122,000
Schiff Hardin offers 2 salary $145,000
Schulte Roth (all offices) offers 30 (reports a summer class of 46) salary $160,000
Sedgwick, Detert, Moran & Arnold offers 10 salary $130,000
Seward & Kissel (both offices) offers 8 salary not reported
Seyfarth & Shaw offers 2 salary $145,000
Shearman & Sterling LLP - offers 51 salary $160,000
Sheppard. Mullin offers 5 salary $160,000
Sidley Austin offers 30 (reports a summer class of 44) salary $160,000
Simpson Thacher (nyc) 59 salary $160,000
Skadden Arps (nyc) offers 100 salary $160,000
Steptoe & Johnson (nyc) no offers reported salary $160,000
Stroock & Stroock & Lavan 18 offers (reports a summer class of 28) salary $160,000
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (all offices) offers 104 (reports expects 70) salary $160,000
Sutherland Asbill & Brennan LLP 1 offer salary $160,000
Total 412 (note S&C is all offices)
total not reporting salary 420


Thompson Hine Not reported 2 the previous year compensation not noted
Troutman Sanders offers 3 $160,000 compensation
Total 3

No U firms

Vedder Price offers 2 compensation $145,000
Venable offers 3 compensation $135,000
Vinson & Elkins offers 9 compensation $160,000
Total 14

Wachtell offers 24 compensation $165,000
Weil Gotshal offers 86 compensation $160,000
White and Case offers 56 compensation $160,000
Wilkie Farr offers 49 compensation $160,000
Wimer Hale offers 11 compensation $160,000
Wilson Sonsin offers 3 compensation $160,000
Winston and Strawn offers 20 compensation $160,000
Total =249

No X, Y or Z firms

total of all firms that reported salary = 2241

rose711
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:57 pm

Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job =2241

Postby rose711 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:47 pm

So I was very wrong, I underestimated by more than half the number of these jobs in Manhattan. One thing I was struck by is how a handful of firms hire a large number but there are many places- and not just small firms - that hire a just a few people,

I wanted a separate post to discuss my findings:
from the NALP site there were self-reported 2241 offers in New York - note that this includes a few firms who only reported totals from around the country.
Several firms had large classes but hired a shockingly small number of them
I didn't track data on all firms on how many associates were expected, some firms showed they expected significantly fewer associates then they made offers to - I think that perhaps people were bought out of offers or on furlough.

So there it is - say there are 2250 jobs over $100,000 (that I know of right now ) in NYC...and there are 45,000 graduates from law schools from the numbers I have seen. I think someone up in the thread said 25,000 but that is not what I have seen reported.

Good luck everyone

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reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:04 pm

thesealocust wrote:There are fewer of these jobs in the downturn than there were before, but solid estimates (by combining salary / employment data from several different sources) suggests that there are on the order of 5,000 "big law" jobs available to graduates every year. Probably fewer during the downturn, probably more during 'boom times' - but something around that number.

Of those +/- 5K "big law" jobs, a substantial amount - probably a majority but only a slim one - go to the graduates of the top 14 law schools in any given year. The other half or so go to students (well connected, top, etc.) from the other ~180 law schools in the country.

The biggest law firms routinely take on the order 100 people into their law firm for the summer. Skadden took 300+ spread across their offices in the U.S. and abroad during boom-times.

Defining big law is difficult, but anything in the Am Law 100 or Vault 100 definitely is - and it would be hard to argue that any firm in the NLJ 250 was NOT big law, but towards the bottom of the list you see firms that people wouldn't traditionally associate with "big law." Salary is 160,000 / year for all 1st year associates in major markets (LA, DC, Chicago, NYC) with few exceptions, and plenty of other markets (SF, Texas cities, etc.) are at-or-near that salary scale. Other cities have less need for big law, since it focuses on major corporate work, but large law firms still pay competitive salaries, usually at or near 6 figures. The concentration of big firm jobs is in big cities with significant corporate presence, however.

Every year about 100,000 take the LSAT, about 50,000 GO to law school, and about 45,000 graduate FROM law school.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has estimated that there are something like 35,000 entry level legal jobs every year (from a combination of growth and openings due to retirements / lateral moves / etc.).

For jobs that aren't "big law" there are a small number that will pay around 100K regardless, but those kinds of firms tend to hire very few people and don't impact the overall numbers much. The much larger group is in the 30-60K range, and encompasses positions in the government, public interest positions, and positions at firms that don't deal in gigantic corporate work. Think: Family law (divorce, custody), immigration law, plaintiff's attorneys for smaller cases, corporate work for smaller / local corporations, small scale criminal defense, etc.

Many legal jobs which people will eventually take - such as working as a lawyer "in house" for a corporation - are very lucrative (6 figure salary + stock) but are all but off-limits to new legal grads. They tend to hire people who are coming from large law firms. Likewise many smaller specialized law firms chiefly hire graduates from bigger firms who have experience rather than recruiting out of law school.

Turnover at large law firms is huge (and one reason for the big salaries was to entice people to stay). It's a grueling job. A "rule of thumb" is that about a third of the class leaves every 2 years at major firms, and the odds of any given first year associate making partner in the firm at which they start is often a single digit percentage. Smaller firms tend to have better - but still bleak - partnership prospects. Much of this is because people leave as opposed to being 'forced out' or fired, however.

Sorry for the lack of sources, but hopefully that information helps put things in perspective.



This is an excellent post.

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Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:18 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
thesealocust wrote:There are fewer of these jobs in the downturn than there were before, but solid estimates (by combining salary / employment data from several different sources) suggests that there are on the order of 5,000 "big law" jobs available to graduates every year. Probably fewer during the downturn, probably more during 'boom times' - but something around that number.

Of those +/- 5K "big law" jobs, a substantial amount - probably a majority but only a slim one - go to the graduates of the top 14 law schools in any given year. The other half or so go to students (well connected, top, etc.) from the other ~180 law schools in the country.

The biggest law firms routinely take on the order 100 people into their law firm for the summer. Skadden took 300+ spread across their offices in the U.S. and abroad during boom-times.

Defining big law is difficult, but anything in the Am Law 100 or Vault 100 definitely is - and it would be hard to argue that any firm in the NLJ 250 was NOT big law, but towards the bottom of the list you see firms that people wouldn't traditionally associate with "big law." Salary is 160,000 / year for all 1st year associates in major markets (LA, DC, Chicago, NYC) with few exceptions, and plenty of other markets (SF, Texas cities, etc.) are at-or-near that salary scale. Other cities have less need for big law, since it focuses on major corporate work, but large law firms still pay competitive salaries, usually at or near 6 figures. The concentration of big firm jobs is in big cities with significant corporate presence, however.

Every year about 100,000 take the LSAT, about 50,000 GO to law school, and about 45,000 graduate FROM law school.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has estimated that there are something like 35,000 entry level legal jobs every year (from a combination of growth and openings due to retirements / lateral moves / etc.).

For jobs that aren't "big law" there are a small number that will pay around 100K regardless, but those kinds of firms tend to hire very few people and don't impact the overall numbers much. The much larger group is in the 30-60K range, and encompasses positions in the government, public interest positions, and positions at firms that don't deal in gigantic corporate work. Think: Family law (divorce, custody), immigration law, plaintiff's attorneys for smaller cases, corporate work for smaller / local corporations, small scale criminal defense, etc.

Many legal jobs which people will eventually take - such as working as a lawyer "in house" for a corporation - are very lucrative (6 figure salary + stock) but are all but off-limits to new legal grads. They tend to hire people who are coming from large law firms. Likewise many smaller specialized law firms chiefly hire graduates from bigger firms who have experience rather than recruiting out of law school.

Turnover at large law firms is huge (and one reason for the big salaries was to entice people to stay). It's a grueling job. A "rule of thumb" is that about a third of the class leaves every 2 years at major firms, and the odds of any given first year associate making partner in the firm at which they start is often a single digit percentage. Smaller firms tend to have better - but still bleak - partnership prospects. Much of this is because people leave as opposed to being 'forced out' or fired, however.

Sorry for the lack of sources, but hopefully that information helps put things in perspective.



This is an excellent post.


Agreed. Post moar.

albanach
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Re: Trying to get numbers on the 160,000 a year job

Postby albanach » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:57 pm

If we assume that most of the hires come from the T14, it's worth knowing how many T14 grads will be looking for these positions.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=141338

From smallest to biggest class sizes:
1. Stanford University 170
2. University of Chicago 191
3. Cornell University 205
4. Yale University 214
5. Duke University 228
6. University of Pennsylvania 255
7. Northwestern University 271
8. University of California – Berkeley 292
9. University of Virginia 368
10. University of Michigan 371
11. Columbia University 397
12. New York University 450
13. Georgetown University 463
14. Harvard University 559

Total: 4434




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