T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings

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Knock
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T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded & Other Rankings

Postby Knock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:15 pm

Legal Research & Writing Graded/Ungraded
Yale- "Unlike many other schools, you won't take an introductory legal writing course at YLS - writing is taught in the context of your required first-term classes."
Harvard- Normal HP/P/LP/F
Stanford- Normal H/P
Columbia- HP/P/LP/F, does not count towards your GPA
Chicago- Graded
NYU- Ungraded
Berkeley- Ungraded (1st semester P/F, 2nd semester HH/H/P)
Michigan- Ungraded (H/P/F, 20% get H)
Virginia- Ungraded (P/F)
Penn- Ungraded
Duke- Graded
Northwestern- Graded (uncurved)
Cornell- Graded
Georgetown- Graded

UCLA- Graded (Follows 1L Curve: 25-28% As and A-s, ~50% Bs and B+s, ~20% B-, 5-8% C+)

Class Size Rankings
1. Stanford University 170
2. University of Chicago 191
3. Cornell University 205
4. Yale University 214
5. Duke University 228
6. University of Pennsylvania 255
7. Northwestern University 271
8. University of California – Berkeley 292
9. University of Virginia 368
10. University of Michigan 371
11. Columbia University 397
12. New York University 450
13. Georgetown University 463
14. Harvard University 559

Using 2012 data from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=122920&p=3185309&hilit=medians#p3185309

Section Size Rankings (All Data from Official ABA Data)
1. Yale 58
2. Stanford 60
3. Northwestern 65
4. Duke 68
5. University of Virginia 72
6. Harvard 80
7. University of Pennsylvania 85
8. NYU 89
9. University of California - Berkeley 90
10. Michigan 91
11. Chicago 93
12. Columbia 95
13. Cornell 99
14. Georgetown 117

Student-To-Faculty Ratio Rankings (All Data From Official ABA Data)
1. Yale 7.3:1
2. Stanford 8.0:1
3. Northwestern 8.8:1
4. NYU 9.4:1
5. University of Chicago 9.5:1
6. Duke 9.7:1
7. Cornell 10.0:1
8. Columbia 10.1:1
9. Penn 10.7:1
10. Harvard 11.0:1
11. Berkeley 11.3:1
12. Michigan 11.4:1
13. Georgetown 12.4:1
14. Virginia 12.6:1

Cost of Attendance Rankings (2010 Data, COA may have increased since then)
1. Michigan $65,350
2. Duke $66,938
3. Virginia $67,700
4. Georgetown $68,000
5. Chicago $68,010
6. Penn $68,150
7. Harvard $70,100
8. Yale $70,450
9. NYU $70,866
10. Cornell $72,380
11. Northwestern $73,285
12. Columbia $74,000
13. Berkeley $74,048
14. Stanford $74,982

Minority Enrollment (All Data From Official ABA Data)
1. Stanford 35.7%
2. Berkeley 34.6%
3. Northwestern 33.9%
4.Cornell 30.4%
5. Columbia 28.7%
6. Harvard 28.6%
7. Chicago 28.3%
8. Penn 28.0%
9 Yale 27.6%
10. Michigan 22.9%
11. Duke 22.7%
12. NYU 23.3%
13. Georgetown FT 22.5% PT 21.8%
14. Virginia 19.7%

Female Enrollment (All Data From Official ABA Data)
1. Cornell 51.8%
2. Berkeley 51.6%
3. Columbia 48.5%
4. Yale 47.8%
5. Harvard 47.3%
6. Stanford 47.2%
7. Penn 47.2%
8. Northwestern 46.2%
9. Georgetown 45.3%
10. Chicago 44.7%
11. Virginia 44.1%
12. NYU 44.0%
13. Michigan 43.5%
14. Duke 43.0%

[Includes African-Americans, American-Indians, Asian-American, Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Hispanic, Excludes "Unkown"]

Percent of Class Receiving Grants (All Data From Official ABA Data)
1. Duke 67.7%
2. Michigan 57.9%
3. Virginia 57.5%
4. Chicago 56.2%
5. Columbia 54.5%
6. Yale 53.6%
7. Stanford 50.1%
8. Berkeley 47.6%
9. Harvard 47.1%
10. Penn 39.9%
11. Cornell 36.9%
12. Northwestern 35.1%
13. NYU 34.8%
14. Georgetown 30.7%

Median Grant Amount (All Data From Official ABA Data)
1. Stanford $22,178
2. Yale $21,410
3. Northwestern $20,000
4. NYU $20,000
5. Cornell $18,000
6. Harvard $15,490
7. Georgetown $15,000
8. Virginia $15,000
9. Berkeley $14,349
10. Duke $14,000
11. Penn $14,000
12. Michigan $11,300
13. Chicago $10,800
14. Columbia $10,250
Last edited by Knock on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:21 am, edited 32 times in total.

09042014
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:32 pm

NU graded

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acrossthelake
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:34 pm

I believe UVa ungraded. It's pass/fail.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:34 pm

HYS-ungraded
Columbia, NYU,MVPB- ungraded
Chicago-graded
CDGN- graded

If you're an 0L, and using this to decide between schools in the top 14--you're one of the smartest one's here.

As much as I used to love Chicago, looking back on it I would never pick Chicago over NYU for this reason alone.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:HYS-ungraded
Columbia, NYU,MVPB- ungraded
Chicago-graded
CDGN- graded

If you're an 0L, and using this to decide between schools in the top 14--you're one of the smartest one's here.


Compliment accepted.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:38 pm

Knock wrote:Yale- Ungraded
Harvard- Ungraded
Stanford- Ungraded (normal H/P)
Columbia- Ungraded
Chicago- Graded
NYU- Ungraded
Berkeley- Ungraded (normal HH/H/P)
Michigan- Ungraded
Virginia- Ungraded
Penn- Ungraded
Duke- Graded
Northwestern- Graded
Cornell- Graded
Georgetown- Graded


Okay, if anyone wants to give me more specifics I can put them in (like I put for S and B).

Also, if there are any non-T14 that are ungraded LRW, I can add that into as well, please let me know.

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:40 pm

doesn't HLS have the same "grades" for LRW as everything else? they did for c/o 2011

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acrossthelake
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:41 pm

Harvard's LRW seems to be graded.

The First-Year Legal Writing and Research Program (LRW) is a series of exercises introducing students to the way lawyers analyze and frame legal positions in litigation, conduct legal research, and present their work in writing and in oral argument. Students actively learn research and writing skills by preparing initial and final drafts of memoranda and briefs and by becoming familiar with accessing both print and electronic research materials. In the spring, each first-year student is required to participate in the First-Year Ames Moot Court Program as a part of LRW, and to brief and argue a moot appellate case in a team of two. The course meets once a week for two hours or in one-on-one conferences. It carries two academic credits each semester and is graded honors/pass/low pass/fail. First-year law students in the Program are instructed by fourteen Climenko Fellows--promising legal scholars with high academic achievements and a strong interest in pursuing a career in law teaching--as well as by research librarians and upper-class teaching assistants.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:43 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Harvard's LRW seems to be graded.

The First-Year Legal Writing and Research Program (LRW) is a series of exercises introducing students to the way lawyers analyze and frame legal positions in litigation, conduct legal research, and present their work in writing and in oral argument. Students actively learn research and writing skills by preparing initial and final drafts of memoranda and briefs and by becoming familiar with accessing both print and electronic research materials. In the spring, each first-year student is required to participate in the First-Year Ames Moot Court Program as a part of LRW, and to brief and argue a moot appellate case in a team of two. The course meets once a week for two hours or in one-on-one conferences. It carries two academic credits each semester and is graded honors/pass/low pass/fail. First-year law students in the Program are instructed by fourteen Climenko Fellows--promising legal scholars with high academic achievements and a strong interest in pursuing a career in law teaching--as well as by research librarians and upper-class teaching assistants.


Is that different from normal grades at HLS?

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acrossthelake
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:44 pm

Same scale as normal grades.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:45 pm

IAFG wrote:doesn't HLS have the same "grades" for LRW as everything else? they did for c/o 2011



Ehhh that's a bit picky but I guess you're right. They have "graded" LRW in the sense that it's not P/F but it's not on a traditional GPA scale either;I was assuming that the OP was trying to single out schools that had a traditional curved GPA scale for LRW.

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Knock
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Knock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:doesn't HLS have the same "grades" for LRW as everything else? they did for c/o 2011



Ehhh that's a bit picky but I guess you're right. They have "graded" LRW in the sense that it's not P/F but it's not on a traditional GPA scale either;I was assuming that the OP was trying to single out schools that had a traditional curved GPA scale for LRW.


Okay, I specified for schools such as H, S, and B rather than give it a label. How does the grading at Y work?

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:51 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
IAFG wrote:doesn't HLS have the same "grades" for LRW as everything else? they did for c/o 2011



Ehhh that's a bit picky but I guess you're right. They have "graded" LRW in the sense that it's not P/F but it's not on a traditional GPA scale either;I was assuming that the OP was trying to single out schools that had a traditional curved GPA scale for LRW.

it's not P/F it's HP/P/LP/F which really is just A/B/C/F, and there is an undisclosed GPA at HLS that's used to determine latin honors. it's not nearly the "gradeless" system it was originally pitched as.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:54 pm

This thread is relevant to my interests.

I'd also be interested to know for the ungraded LRWs which T14s have LRW honors. Is that a thing? I think I've heard it before, so let's go with that.
Last edited by Bildungsroman on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Hannibal » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:55 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:This thread is relevant to my interests.

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Entchen
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby Entchen » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:55 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:This thread is relevant to my interests.

+1

Yay for Michigan ungraded :D

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mrmangs
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:00 am

BruceWayne wrote:HYS-ungraded
Columbia, NYU,MVPB- ungraded
Chicago-graded
CDGN- graded

If you're an 0L, and using this to decide between schools in the top 14--you're one of the smartest one's here.

As much as I used to love Chicago, looking back on it I would never pick Chicago over NYU for this reason alone.


I'm a stupid, ignorant 0L, so could the wiser people elaborate here for me? I mean, so I get that LRW is a bitch and it goes without saying that grades are stressful, but why is this such a huge deal? Assuming LRW is ungraded, it doesn't affect your GPA. Great. But assuming it is graded, doesn't it work on the same curve as any other class at your school? In which case, it's just as open to the vicissitudes of fate as any other class. What is so special about it being graded vs. say, contracts being graded? Same number of people (although I suppose not necessarily the same people), will get A's, B's, or whatever. Is it just that people would like to minimize the number of graded classes, no matter what they are (although I'm not quite sure what is so great about this either... yeah, you have less classes to study for, but that just means everyone will focus more on the classes that are graded, so you'd be facing the same amount of competition in either case)? I seem to be missing something...

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:05 am

mrmangs wrote:I'm a stupid, ignorant 0L, so could the wiser people elaborate here for me? I mean, so I get that LRW is a bitch and it goes without saying that grades are stressful, but why is this such a huge deal? Assuming LRW is ungraded, it doesn't affect your GPA. Great. But assuming it is graded, doesn't it work on the same curve as any other class at your school? In which case, it's just as open to the vicissitudes of fate as any other class. What is so special about it being graded vs. say, contracts being graded? Same number of people (although I suppose not necessarily the same people), will get A's, B's, or whatever. Is it just that people would like to minimize the number of graded classes, no matter what they are (although I'm not quite sure what is so great about this either... yeah, you have less classes to study for, but that just means everyone will focus more on the classes that are graded, so you'd be facing the same amount of competition in either case)? I seem to be missing something...

it's incredibly time-consuming, and i've heard a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that people who do well in LS generally have LRW as their lowest grade. also, at NU, it isn't curved, so grading could be capricious.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:15 am

IAFG wrote:
mrmangs wrote:I'm a stupid, ignorant 0L, so could the wiser people elaborate here for me? I mean, so I get that LRW is a bitch and it goes without saying that grades are stressful, but why is this such a huge deal? Assuming LRW is ungraded, it doesn't affect your GPA. Great. But assuming it is graded, doesn't it work on the same curve as any other class at your school? In which case, it's just as open to the vicissitudes of fate as any other class. What is so special about it being graded vs. say, contracts being graded? Same number of people (although I suppose not necessarily the same people), will get A's, B's, or whatever. Is it just that people would like to minimize the number of graded classes, no matter what they are (although I'm not quite sure what is so great about this either... yeah, you have less classes to study for, but that just means everyone will focus more on the classes that are graded, so you'd be facing the same amount of competition in either case)? I seem to be missing something...

it's incredibly time-consuming, and i've heard a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that people who do well in LS generally have LRW as their lowest grade. also, at NU, it isn't curved, so grading could be capricious.


Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:16 am

IAFG wrote:
mrmangs wrote:I'm a stupid, ignorant 0L, so could the wiser people elaborate here for me? I mean, so I get that LRW is a bitch and it goes without saying that grades are stressful, but why is this such a huge deal? Assuming LRW is ungraded, it doesn't affect your GPA. Great. But assuming it is graded, doesn't it work on the same curve as any other class at your school? In which case, it's just as open to the vicissitudes of fate as any other class. What is so special about it being graded vs. say, contracts being graded? Same number of people (although I suppose not necessarily the same people), will get A's, B's, or whatever. Is it just that people would like to minimize the number of graded classes, no matter what they are (although I'm not quite sure what is so great about this either... yeah, you have less classes to study for, but that just means everyone will focus more on the classes that are graded, so you'd be facing the same amount of competition in either case)? I seem to be missing something...

it's incredibly time-consuming, and i've heard a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that people who do well in LS generally have LRW as their lowest grade. also, at NU, it isn't curved, so grading could be capricious.


The time-consuming point I find a bit odd b/c, as I mentioned above, non-graded LRW would mean more time to study for other classes and thus a more difficult curve. Then again, time isn't fungible and the law of diminishing returns will eventually assert itself, so I see why this point might be important.

The fact that NU's LRW doesn't have a curve is interesting, although from what I hear, grades in law school in general (i.e., curved or otherwise) are capricious. However, I would be interested in finding out which of the graded LRW schools grade on a curve and which do not.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:17 am

There are several reasons to hate graded LRW.

1)Everyone works harder at it. If mine was pass fail I'd do enough to pass and no more.

2)The writing style is hard to get and is unlike anything you've ever done.

3)You have to match your professors idiosyncrasies, which is hard.

4)Some interviewer or committee member might see that below median LRW grade and ding you for it even if you have good grades. Nobody cares so much how you did in Torts, if you did well in other classes

I know professional writers who are getting median pwnd or worse.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:17 am

BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.

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IAFG
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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:21 am

mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.

right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby mrmangs » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:23 am

IAFG wrote:
mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.

right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


The professors are intentionally trying to even out the success of their law schools students? :lol:

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Re: T-14 LRW Graded/Ungraded

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:27 am

IAFG wrote:
mrmangs wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Not only that, but getting a below median grade in the one 1L class that actually teaches you skills that are extremely important to employers probably looks really, really, really bad.


True, but on the flip side, if you do well, it probably looks really, really good. And could set you apart if you are median or below in terms of your overall GPA.

right, which is one theory i have heard about why NU grades - it gives people with nothing else impressive on their resume something to pitch. i don't know why it would be true that people who do well generally would do bad in LRW and the inverse, but i have heard upperclassmen say it.


It could just be that ability in normal classes is totally unrelated to ability in LRW. In that case amongst people who do really well in normal classes only a small portion would also do well in LWR. For people getting all A's and A-'s getting a B+ in LRW is a bad grade when it's still average.




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