If you want work in a certain region...

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
lawschoolnonsense
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:10 pm

If you want work in a certain region...

Postby lawschoolnonsense » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:46 pm

There seems to be a general consensus on this site that going T14 is wonderful. This seems fair enough.

There also seems to be a general consensus that most schools (even those in roughly the lower half of the T14 to some degree) have regional reputations. And furthermore, if you know that you want to practice in a certain region, then it is probably wise to attend the law school with the most respective regional clout.

Assuming that working in NYC or DC is irrelevant to you and that you'd much rather work in your smaller market hometown (Pittsburgh or Cleveland or any other city of a similar legal market) would it make more sense to go to the regional T2 or lower end T1 versus a Top14 school if the tuition were substantially lower?

User avatar
northwood
Posts: 4872
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 7:29 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby northwood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:55 pm

i would say apply to a wide band of schools in that region, and go to the school that is the most economically sound. Not necessairly the one that offers you the best scholarship, but the one that your money goes farther ( best job placement for cost of attendance).

lawschoolnonsense
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:10 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby lawschoolnonsense » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:57 pm

northwood wrote:i would say apply to a wide band of schools in that region, and go to the school that is the most economically sound. Not necessairly the one that offers you the best scholarship, but the one that your money goes farther ( best job placement for cost of attendance).


this is what i have come to think as well.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:04 am

lawschoolnonsense wrote:There also seems to be a general consensus that most schools (even those in roughly the lower half of the T14 to some degree) have regional reputations.


You need to read the Legal Employment forum rather than the 0L forums. There is no such consensus, and especially no such consensus re: the lower half of the T14.

lawschoolnonsense wrote:Assuming that working in NYC or DC is irrelevant to you and that you'd much rather work in your smaller market hometown (Pittsburgh or Cleveland or any other city of a similar legal market) would it make more sense to go to the regional T2 or lower end T1 versus a Top14 school if the tuition were substantially lower?


The distinction between T14 and T2 is not "do I want to practice in NY/DC or do I want to practice in Pittsburgh/Cleveland/XYZ hometown?"

The distinction between T14 and T2 is "do I want BigLaw in NY/DC/Cleveland/Pittsburgh, or do I want to practice at a smaller firm (or risk unemployment) in NY/DC/Cleveland/Pittsburgh?"

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:07 am

RVP11 wrote:
lawschoolnonsense wrote:There also seems to be a general consensus that most schools (even those in roughly the lower half of the T14 to some degree) have regional reputations.


You need to read the Legal Employment forum rather than the 0L forums. There is no such consensus, and especially no such consensus re: the lower half of the T14.

lawschoolnonsense wrote:Assuming that working in NYC or DC is irrelevant to you and that you'd much rather work in your smaller market hometown (Pittsburgh or Cleveland or any other city of a similar legal market) would it make more sense to go to the regional T2 or lower end T1 versus a Top14 school if the tuition were substantially lower?


The distinction between T14 and T2 is not "do I want to practice in NY/DC or do I want to practice in Pittsburgh/Cleveland/XYZ hometown?"

The distinction between T14 and T2 is "do I want BigLaw in NY/DC/Cleveland/Pittsburgh, or do I want to practice at a smaller firm (or risk unemployment) in NY/DC/Cleveland/Pittsburgh?"


You must have misread his question. He said that to some degree most of the top 14 have regional reputations; not that it's easy to get a job from the top 14.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:13 am

BruceWayne wrote:You must have misread his question. He said that to some degree most of the top 14 have regional reputations; not that it's easy to get a job from the top 14.


I didn't misread anything then. None of the T14 have "regional reputations." That's asinine.

lawschoolnonsense
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:10 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby lawschoolnonsense » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:40 am

RVP11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You must have misread his question. He said that to some degree most of the top 14 have regional reputations; not that it's easy to get a job from the top 14.


I didn't misread anything then. None of the T14 have "regional reputations." That's asinine.


First, it's not asinine. I may, however, have overstated my case. While all of the T14 are recognized nationally. In terms of employment, many of them place regionally. There's a reason why most Berkeley grads stay in Cali and why most G-Town grads stay on the East Coast.

Second, the criticism that you can't land big law out of a lower T1 or a T2 is simply not true. Just look at the attorney roster for any big firm in any city. You'll find your fair share of HYS, but most of the attorneys will have come from the regionally connected school. Squire Sanders in Cleveland boasts of lawyers from Case Western and Cleveland State. Reed Smith in Pittsburgh has an overwhelming number of Pitt and even Duquesne (a lowly TTTT) grads.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:23 am

lawschoolnonsense wrote:While all of the T14 are recognized nationally. In terms of employment, many of them place regionally. There's a reason why most Berkeley grads stay in Cali and why most G-Town grads stay on the East Coast.


That's called self-selection. Does it surprise you that people who choose to attend law school in California also choose to practice in California? Does it surprise you that people who choose to attend law school on the east coast also choose to practice on the east coast?

Of all the people I know at my T14, there are only a handful who wanted a certain market and couldn't get a job there. And funny enough, those markets are in what most 0Ls in the Choosing a Law School forum would consider my school's zone of regional strength. Virtually everyone I know who wanted a job in a certain place outside of that zone, and had the requisite ties, got one.

lawschoolnonsense wrote:Second, the criticism that you can't land big law out of a lower T1 or a T2 is simply not true.


I never said that. I said that if you want BigLaw, you go to a T14. I didn't say that you couldn't get BigLaw from a non-T14.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby keg411 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:02 am

lawschoolnonsense wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You must have misread his question. He said that to some degree most of the top 14 have regional reputations; not that it's easy to get a job from the top 14.


I didn't misread anything then. None of the T14 have "regional reputations." That's asinine.


First, it's not asinine. I may, however, have overstated my case. While all of the T14 are recognized nationally. In terms of employment, many of them place regionally. There's a reason why most Berkeley grads stay in Cali and why most G-Town grads stay on the East Coast.

Second, the criticism that you can't land big law out of a lower T1 or a T2 is simply not true. Just look at the attorney roster for any big firm in any city. You'll find your fair share of HYS, but most of the attorneys will have come from the regionally connected school. Squire Sanders in Cleveland boasts of lawyers from Case Western and Cleveland State. Reed Smith in Pittsburgh has an overwhelming number of Pitt and even Duquesne (a lowly TTTT) grads.


First, some of those people are a) laterals and b) older. Second, big firms in secondary markets don't hire huge SA classes. So you're competing with your entire school and every school in your region (plus T14'ers) for maybe 10 spots max, 1-2 of which will go to the local schools. Just because there are attorneys from the local schools doesn't mean they were either hired recently or their first job was at that firm. Don't let the numbers fool you. Look at the attorney rosters and look at the years of graduation.

If you want to work in your home region and don't mind small law (or possibly unemployment) or have actual legal connections, then going to the cheap regional isn't the end of the world (but make sure it's actually cheap). That's what I'm currently doing (and I'm in the "connections" bracket).

User avatar
Panther7
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:34 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby Panther7 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:31 am

If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:37 am

Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

I disagree that it's "that simple." For many regions, not only must you have a law degree and summer work experience in the area, but significant ties as well.

thisguy456
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:42 am

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby thisguy456 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:49 am

RVP11 wrote:
lawschoolnonsense wrote:While all of the T14 are recognized nationally. In terms of employment, many of them place regionally. There's a reason why most Berkeley grads stay in Cali and why most G-Town grads stay on the East Coast.


That's called self-selection. Does it surprise you that people who choose to attend law school in California also choose to practice in California? Does it surprise you that people who choose to attend law school on the east coast also choose to practice on the east coast?

Of all the people I know at my T14, there are only a handful who wanted a certain market and couldn't get a job there. And funny enough, those markets are in what most 0Ls in the Choosing a Law School forum would consider my school's zone of regional strength. Virtually everyone I know who wanted a job in a certain place outside of that zone, and had the requisite ties, got one.

lawschoolnonsense wrote:Second, the criticism that you can't land big law out of a lower T1 or a T2 is simply not true.


I never said that. I said that if you want BigLaw, you go to a T14. I didn't say that you couldn't get BigLaw from a non-T14.


Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:14 am

thisguy456 wrote:Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength.


But there's not a single school in the country that is going to make firms that care about ties suddenly stop caring.

Please spend more time in the Legal Employment forum. No school gives you the ticket to practice wherever you want - most firms in most non-DC/NY markets want serious ties, and it's not like they're dropping that requirement for Harvard people but not for Michigan people.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:15 am

patrickd139 wrote:
Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

I disagree that it's "that simple." For many regions, not only must you have a law degree and summer work experience in the area, but significant ties as well.


Dude, attending a law school in the area (say, within 100 miles) and summer work experience in the area are pretty significant ties.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:17 am

Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.


Again, if you want to work at a BIG FIRM, it's not that simple.

Say you wanted to work at a big firm in Denver, and you have Denver ties.

Would it be smarter to attend CU or a T14? The T14, by a landslide.

User avatar
Panther7
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:34 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby Panther7 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:20 am

RVP11 wrote:
Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.


Again, if you want to work at a BIG FIRM, it's not that simple.

Say you wanted to work at a big firm in Denver, and you have Denver ties.

Would it be smarter to attend CU or a T14? The T14, by a landslide.


Then go to a Cali school and get summer jobs in Denver. TA-DA!!! It's not rocket science.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:25 am

Panther7 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.


Again, if you want to work at a BIG FIRM, it's not that simple.

Say you wanted to work at a big firm in Denver, and you have Denver ties.

Would it be smarter to attend CU or a T14? The T14, by a landslide.


Then go to a Cali school and get summer jobs in Denver. TA-DA!!! It's not rocket science.


How are California and Colorado the same region? What are you trying to say?

Your earlier statement would suggest that someone who knows they want to practice in Colorado should always attend Colorado for law school, even if they want to work for a big firm. That's wrong.

thisguy456
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:42 am

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby thisguy456 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:32 pm

RVP11 wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength.


But there's not a single school in the country that is going to make firms that care about ties suddenly stop caring.

Please spend more time in the Legal Employment forum. No school gives you the ticket to practice wherever you want - most firms in most non-DC/NY markets want serious ties, and it's not like they're dropping that requirement for Harvard people but not for Michigan people.


Who are you telling to spend more time in the Legal Employment forum to? Seems like it was addressed to me, but then you started talking about another issue that maybe someone else brought up, because I didn't. What you said I already know.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:04 pm

thisguy456 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength.


But there's not a single school in the country that is going to make firms that care about ties suddenly stop caring.

Please spend more time in the Legal Employment forum. No school gives you the ticket to practice wherever you want - most firms in most non-DC/NY markets want serious ties, and it's not like they're dropping that requirement for Harvard people but not for Michigan people.


Who are you telling to spend more time in the Legal Employment forum to? Seems like it was addressed to me, but then you started talking about another issue that maybe someone else brought up, because I didn't. What you said I already know.


It was directed to you. Please explain what you mean when you said:

"Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength."

If you're trying to say that a school's regional/national strength is measured by how many people WITHOUT requisite ties are getting jobs outside of the school's region, then you're arguing from a false premise. People without requisite ties generally don't get jobs in non-DC/NY markets no matter what law school they attend. Your ties are 100x more important than your school's "national strength" when it comes to getting a job in a different region.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:12 pm

RVP11 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

I disagree that it's "that simple." For many regions, not only must you have a law degree and summer work experience in the area, but significant ties as well.


Dude, attending a law school in the area (say, within 100 miles) and summer work experience in the area are pretty significant ties.

For some regions it is. For other regions, especially some of the more insulated regions not near any one particularly strong regional school, it's insufficient. I'm unfortunately having problems with this right now.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:20 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

I disagree that it's "that simple." For many regions, not only must you have a law degree and summer work experience in the area, but significant ties as well.


Dude, attending a law school in the area (say, within 100 miles) and summer work experience in the area are pretty significant ties.

For some regions it is. For other regions, especially some of the more insulated regions not near any one particularly strong regional school, it's insufficient. I'm unfortunately having problems with this right now.


They're significant ties. Whether they amount to what firms in your region like to see is a different question.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:23 pm

RVP11 wrote:They're significant ties. Whether they amount to what firms in your region like to see is a different question.

I see what you're saying; I was just trying to correct the misconception, below, that going to a LS and doing a SA in that region are enough to get a job in any region.

Panther7 wrote:If you know what region you want to work in, go to the best school in that region and find summer jobs in that region. Seriously. It's that simple.

thisguy456
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:42 am

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby thisguy456 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:47 pm

RVP11 wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength.


But there's not a single school in the country that is going to make firms that care about ties suddenly stop caring.

Please spend more time in the Legal Employment forum. No school gives you the ticket to practice wherever you want - most firms in most non-DC/NY markets want serious ties, and it's not like they're dropping that requirement for Harvard people but not for Michigan people.


Who are you telling to spend more time in the Legal Employment forum to? Seems like it was addressed to me, but then you started talking about another issue that maybe someone else brought up, because I didn't. What you said I already know.


It was directed to you. Please explain what you mean when you said:

"Citing people you know who found jobs outside a school's supposed region and also having the "requisite ties" says little about a school's regional/national strength."

If you're trying to say that a school's regional/national strength is measured by how many people WITHOUT requisite ties are getting jobs outside of the school's region, then you're arguing from a false premise. People without requisite ties generally don't get jobs in non-DC/NY markets no matter what law school they attend. Your ties are 100x more important than your school's "national strength" when it comes to getting a job in a different region.


Mentioning instances of people finding jobs outside of a school's considered region doesn't really say a lot. I don't know how else to put it. I can list any number of schools with people getting jobs outside the region. I'm not sure what the point is.

I don't argue people WITHOUT requisite ties getting jobs outside a school's region is any kind of barometer. Ties alone aren't enough to get a job outside a school's region. The school can still matter. And in that regard I don't think it's too outlandish or asinine to consider some schools even in the T14 to behave more regionally than others.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby RVP11 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:59 pm

thisguy456 wrote:And in that regard I don't think it's too outlandish or asinine to consider some schools even in the T14 to behave more regionally than others.


I'll be shocked if you can find a 2L/3L at any T14 who agrees.

I know it makes a lot of threads on TLS a whole lot less fun, but it's not easy to categorize the T14. Self-selection plays a huge role with schools at this level and ties are at least 10x more important than your school.

User avatar
FlanAl
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: If you want work in a certain region...

Postby FlanAl » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 pm

my guess would be that pretty soon the opposite is going to be true for a few schools in the t-14. i'd think we'd see the chicago and dc schools place less regionally than before because those markets are getting so slammed. we'll probably see a lot of georgetown all over the place and not so heavy into dc and my guess is that its one of the t14's people see as regional.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests