Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

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Bumi
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Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Bumi » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:29 pm

I had just about resigned myself to the fact that my splitter application will confine me to the bitter cold of the midwest, and now today I noticed that I'm likely heading to a school without a lot of women. Splitters of any gender or identity or persuasion of any kind, consider yourselves warned:

Washington University in St. Louis: 58.2% dudes
Illinois: 57.9% dudes
Minnesota: 58.4% dudes
Indiana: 58.4% dudes

This bothers me for feminist reasons and also because social dynamics can get all out of whack with even a seemingly-small gender imbalance either direction. My team at work has finally shifted all the way to 50% female, and it's significantly more pleasant than when it was 100% or even 60% men. As someone who spent his undergrad at a school both (a) in the midwest and (b) 60% male, I was hoping to change things up this time. So much for that.

(As karmic retribution for this post, I am sure I will now get rejected at those four schools).

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ZachOda
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby ZachOda » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:04 pm

I wouldn't stress it Bumi. First of all, the difference is pretty negligible. Second, looking at three of those (UIUC, Minn, and IU), they're huge state schools. There will be girls around there, perhaps you can mingle with the other grad programs. Finally, for WUSTL, it's in St. Louis, which is a major city. I suspect there will be girls around there. Don't worry about the girl to guy ratio at the law school, because there are plenty of other options. Maybe you'll meet someone from the area.

Or you can impress the UG's by saying you're going to be a lawyer someday :lol:

All in all though, I'm sure you will be able to meet a good group of people at any of those choices (I'm applying to all 4 as well, see you in the Midwest)

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thecilent
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby thecilent » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:19 pm

Bumi wrote:I had just about resigned myself to the fact that my splitter application will confine me to the bitter cold of the midwest, and now today I noticed that I'm likely heading to a school without a lot of women. Splitters of any gender or identity or persuasion of any kind, consider yourselves warned:

Washington University in St. Louis: 58.2% dudes
Illinois: 57.9% dudes
Minnesota: 58.4% dudes
Indiana: 58.4% dudes

This bothers me for feminist reasons and also because social dynamics can get all out of whack with even a seemingly-small gender imbalance either direction. My team at work has finally shifted all the way to 50% female, and it's significantly more pleasant than when it was 100% or even 60% men. As someone who spent his undergrad at a school both (a) in the midwest and (b) 60% male, I was hoping to change things up this time. So much for that.

(As karmic retribution for this post, I am sure I will now get rejected at those four schools).


???

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danquayle
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby danquayle » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:38 am

ZachOda wrote:I wouldn't stress it Bumi. First of all, the difference is pretty negligible. Second, looking at three of those (UIUC, Minn, and IU), they're huge state schools. There will be girls around there, perhaps you can mingle with the other grad programs. Finally, for WUSTL, it's in St. Louis, which is a major city. I suspect there will be girls around there. Don't worry about the girl to guy ratio at the law school, because there are plenty of other options. Maybe you'll meet someone from the area.

Or you can impress the UG's by saying you're going to be a lawyer someday :lol:

All in all though, I'm sure you will be able to meet a good group of people at any of those choices (I'm applying to all 4 as well, see you in the Midwest)


Yeah you don't want to mess around with other law students anyways. You probably don't even want to spend that much time socializing with them, its too much like high school as it is. Make a few good friends in the law school, be friendly with everyone, but socialize outside of the law school.

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dominkay
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby dominkay » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:06 am

There's an LSAT gender gap, which is probably why women are not proportionally represented at splitter schools, or (if I recall correctly) at much of the T-14. Women also tend to have higher GPAs, on average.

Frankly, I'm surprised there's no AA boost for the ladies in terms of law school admissions. I've actually heard rumors to that effect (and traditionally women have been some of the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action), but no one ever talks about it here.

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danquayle
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby danquayle » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:16 am

dominkay wrote:There's an LSAT gender gap, which is probably why women are not proportionally represented at splitter schools, or (if I recall correctly) at much of the T-14. Women also tend to have higher GPAs, on average.

Frankly, I'm surprised there's no AA boost for the ladies in terms of law school admissions. I've actually heard rumors to that effect (and traditionally women have been some of the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action), but no one ever talks about it here.


Are you serious? There are way more women in college. What do you want?

Edit: http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter ... 1229385613

Its gone down recently. Still, 46% of the total enrollment? Underrepresented? You can't just force people away from self-selection. The article even says that women make more than men of the same peer group in many markets. Given that, it fair to say it probably has more to do with the preference of women than any kind of preference in the law schools.

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dominkay
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby dominkay » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:28 am

danquayle wrote:
dominkay wrote:There's an LSAT gender gap, which is probably why women are not proportionally represented at splitter schools, or (if I recall correctly) at much of the T-14. Women also tend to have higher GPAs, on average.

Frankly, I'm surprised there's no AA boost for the ladies in terms of law school admissions. I've actually heard rumors to that effect (and traditionally women have been some of the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action), but no one ever talks about it here.


Are you serious? There are more women in college and also, I believe, more women in law school. What do you want?


No, there are actually fewer women in law school and the number is declining. A lower percentage of women are applying to law school, and a lower percentage of them are accepted in turn, both of which I would think are due in part to the above-mentioned LSAT Gender gap.

Also, consider the high attrition rate of women in the legal profession. And the historical (and on-going) discrimination that women have faced.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby MC Southstar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:29 am

Lawl. 58% is not a sausagefest. Not even close.

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Cupidity
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Cupidity » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:30 am

Go gay or invest in hand lotion

/thread.

Total Litigator
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Total Litigator » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:31 am

Yeah, you definitely need women in the mix. I mean, c'mon, Lord of the Flies anyone?

Just be thankful its not 1972. Women made up only 10% of all law students. In 2009, the number was about 43%. Therefore, any school with less than 57% male has more females than the average law school.

So basically, take the splitter school bashing down just a notch.

Or at least realize that the issue is systemic, not just confined to those four schools, which are only .9% to 1.4% above average for male law student enrollment.

source: http://www.catalyst.org/publication/246 ... -in-the-us

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KMaine
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby KMaine » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:34 am

ITT: We learn that feminists use the term Sausagefest.

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dominkay
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby dominkay » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:35 am

danquayle wrote:
dominkay wrote:There's an LSAT gender gap, which is probably why women are not proportionally represented at splitter schools, or (if I recall correctly) at much of the T-14. Women also tend to have higher GPAs, on average.

Frankly, I'm surprised there's no AA boost for the ladies in terms of law school admissions. I've actually heard rumors to that effect (and traditionally women have been some of the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action), but no one ever talks about it here.


Are you serious? There are way more women in college. What do you want?

Edit: http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter ... 1229385613

Its gone down recently. Still, 46% of the total enrollment? Underrepresented? You can't just force people away from self-selection. The article even says that women make more than men of the same peer group in many markets. Given that, it fair to say it probably has more to do with the preference of women than any kind of preference in the law schools.


Sorry, didn't see your edit. I guess the dearth of women partners and the legal wage gap has more to do with the preference of women, too?

I'm not actually ruling out self-selection as a factor. But it's not the only factor. Like I said, women have lower LSAT scores and higher GPAs, and anyone who hangs out on TLS knows that reverse splitters can have a very tough time of it.

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danquayle
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby danquayle » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:02 am

dominkay wrote:
danquayle wrote:
dominkay wrote:There's an LSAT gender gap, which is probably why women are not proportionally represented at splitter schools, or (if I recall correctly) at much of the T-14. Women also tend to have higher GPAs, on average.

Frankly, I'm surprised there's no AA boost for the ladies in terms of law school admissions. I've actually heard rumors to that effect (and traditionally women have been some of the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action), but no one ever talks about it here.


Are you serious? There are way more women in college. What do you want?

Edit: http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter ... 1229385613

Its gone down recently. Still, 46% of the total enrollment? Underrepresented? You can't just force people away from self-selection. The article even says that women make more than men of the same peer group in many markets. Given that, it fair to say it probably has more to do with the preference of women than any kind of preference in the law schools.


Sorry, didn't see your edit. I guess the dearth of women partners and the legal wage gap has more to do with the preference of women, too?

I'm not actually ruling out self-selection as a factor. But it's not the only factor. Like I said, women have lower LSAT scores and higher GPAs, and anyone who hangs out on TLS knows that reverse splitters can have a very tough time of it.


It might. From what I understand taking maternity leaves early in one's career can be devastating. Or it might be a lagging indicator, more representative of women's opportunities 30 years ago that today.

Either way, applying AA in law school admissions wouldn't do much if anything to affect law firm hiring and promoting practices, at least as it applies to women. There's already more than enough entering the practice to justify a higher percentage of partners.

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stratocophic
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:08 am

MC Southstar wrote:Lawl. 58% is not a sausagefest. Not even close.
Take it from the engineers. Look up Georgia Tech/MIT/CalTech/AnyEngineeringProgramEvar and then get back to us.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:09 am

Sweet, looks like Northwestern is mostly dudes, too. I'm okay with that.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby MC Southstar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:10 am

Holly Golightly wrote:Sweet, looks like Northwestern is mostly dudes, too. I'm okay with that.


If you went to my undergrad, half the school would want your vagina.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:11 am

MC Southstar wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:Sweet, looks like Northwestern is mostly dudes, too. I'm okay with that.


If you went to my undergrad, half the school would want your vagina.

Guess I chose the wrong UG. :?

Bumi
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby Bumi » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:07 pm

Couple of points:

- I'm not trying to nail anybody I have class with. That typically doesn't work well and I'm non-trad enough (I'm 112, after all) to know not to get caught up in that kind of drama.

- I'm more concerned with balance than with boning. I'd assume that anyone who has significant adult work experience (and is somewhat sensitive to others) can tell the difference between a dudes-dominated culture, a ladies-dominated work culture, or a balanced culture. Balanced is best, IMO.

- My undergrad major was 14:1 men:women if that gives you some perspective on where I'm coming from. Maybe I'm oversensitive as a result. Sure 3:2 is a lot better, but it's still not that great (my undergrad school overall was 3:2 and it was very obvious that things were out of whack).

- I absolutely don't blame the schools, I'm just expressing disappointment at a fact I recently learned. I absolutely believe the schools would prefer to be 50/50, but while you're trying to manage your LSAT median, GPA median, yield, URM rate, and scholarship budget, while hitting a precise number of incoming seats, there aren't a lot of degrees of freedom to shoehorn women into a class.
Last edited by Bumi on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:10 pm

Cupidity wrote:Go gay or invest in hand lotion

/thread.


I LOL'd. :)

d34d9823
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby d34d9823 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:15 pm

Bumi wrote:I'm more concerned with balance than with boning. I'd assume that anyone who has significant adult work experience (and is somewhat sensitive to others) can tell the difference between a dudes-dominated culture, a ladies-dominated work culture, or a balanced culture. Balanced is best, IMO..

I'm concerned with your thought process that causes you to worry about gender balance in your three year law school experience which prepares you for 20+ years in an severely male-dominated field.

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caleng
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby caleng » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:24 pm

stratocophic wrote:
MC Southstar wrote:Lawl. 58% is not a sausagefest. Not even close.
Take it from the engineers. Look up Georgia Tech/MIT/CalTech/AnyEngineeringProgramEvar and then get back to us.


+1 My engineering major probably had the highest percentage of females in the college and it was still way more of a "sausagefest" than than.

I'm definitely not complaining, being one of the few females was always a plus for me. I guess I'm not as much of a feminist as OP (not even close).

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:32 pm

dominkay wrote:I'm not actually ruling out self-selection as a factor. But it's not the only factor. Like I said, women have lower LSAT scores and higher GPAs, and anyone who hangs out on TLS knows that reverse splitters can have a very tough time of it.


Reverse-splitters do get into good schools :) But yes... it can no doubt be a pain sometimes :(

While women do score slightly lower on the LSAT, it is slightly lower, not a lot lower as is sometimes the case with minorities. Consequently, a point difference just isn't enough to warrant much of a boost... that's why they no longer give any such boost, unless it is a school that has a severe problem attracting women (which used to be Tulane, but not so much anymore).

I think the answer may be some of both. It really is partially self-selection; and that can't be changed. I know at my campus, there are practically no dudes in the social work school. It is literally a 95:5 ratio. Does that mean I think they should encourage more men to go into that and make them feel welcome? Of course. But does that mean I think they should make it noticeably easier for men to get into the program? No, not really. I think there's a balance to it, honestly.

Also look at doctors. About as many women are in medical school today. But there are more females going into OBGYN, and there are still more men wanting to be surgeons. That is no doubt somewhat a result of self-selection as a lot of women tend to prefer having more time for family and other non-work related things. Is this true across the board? Of course not. But it is a factor.

sumus romani
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby sumus romani » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:36 pm

ZachOda wrote:I wouldn't stress it Bumi. First of all, the difference is pretty negligible. Second, looking at three of those (UIUC, Minn, and IU), they're huge state schools. There will be girls around there, perhaps you can mingle with the other grad programs. Finally, for WUSTL, it's in St. Louis, which is a major city. I suspect there will be girls around there. Don't worry about the girl to guy ratio at the law school, because there are plenty of other options. Maybe you'll meet someone from the area.

Or you can impress the UG's by saying you're going to be a lawyer someday :lol:

All in all though, I'm sure you will be able to meet a good group of people at any of those choices (I'm applying to all 4 as well, see you in the Midwest)


The difference in indeed not negligible in a sense. This is because even slight differences radically alter the pairing up scheme. There have been tons of studies done about this in african american communities (b/c so many aa males are behind bars--like 1/9 young aa males. This has a drastic effect on the options for young aa females). Luckily, everything else ZachOda says is right, so the pool of eligible females is quite a bit larger than the OP supposes.

czelede
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby czelede » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:40 pm

caleng wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
MC Southstar wrote:Lawl. 58% is not a sausagefest. Not even close.
Take it from the engineers. Look up Georgia Tech/MIT/CalTech/AnyEngineeringProgramEvar and then get back to us.


+1 My engineering major probably had the highest percentage of females in the college and it was still way more of a "sausagefest" than than.

I'm definitely not complaining, being one of the few females was always a plus for me. I guess I'm not as much of a feminist as OP (not even close).


Haha, this. My major had 8/149 women. The saying amongst us females about boys in engineering at my UG was "The odds are good, but the goods are odd".

(Of course, the males retaliated with "The odds are bad, and so are the goods"...so...)

peeker82
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Re: Wait. Splitter-friendly schools are sausagefests?

Postby peeker82 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:42 pm

quit looking at it as a sausagefest and instead look at it as a sausagefiesta! :mrgreen:




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