MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

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MVP w/45k or CCN sticker

MVP w/$
44
46%
CCN Sticker
52
54%
 
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SuichiKurama

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:32 pm

doyleoil wrote:
SuichiKurama wrote:
Chuch wrote:if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.


The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.


There's so much naivete and fail in both these posts it's hard to know where to begin.



There is no way you would know if you fell into that part of the class doyel. Honestly, if you say otherwise you're either being 1.disingenuous or 2. just trying to be condescending for no reason. That's really just as bad as when people say things like "if I were top 30 percent at Cornell that means I would have been below median at Columbia" There is simply no way of knowing something like that.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:35 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
doyleoil wrote:
SuichiKurama wrote:
Chuch wrote:if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.


The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.


There's so much naivete and fail in both these posts it's hard to know where to begin.



There is no way you would know if you fell into that part of the class doyel. Honestly, if you say otherwise you're either being 1.disingenuous or 2. just trying to be condescending for no reason. That's really just as bad as when people say things like "if I were top 30 percent at Cornell that means I would have been below median at Columbia" There is simply no way of knowing something like that.


Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby como » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:38 pm

This is a dumb question, but is the scholarship 45K/yr., or 45K in total?

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:39 pm

Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


Just by the stats released from Duke this summer that sounds way off. However, I do realize that when many posters say this their really talking about NYC, not really biglaw jobs period.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:00 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


Just by the stats released from Duke this summer that sounds way off. However, I do realize that when many posters say this their really talking about NYC, not really biglaw jobs period.


Duke placed 40% V100, which includes a lot of great non-NYC firms (Alston, King & Spalding, etc). Middle 1/3 at Duke did not have a great shot at these firms.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:05 pm

rayiner wrote:
SuichiKurama wrote:
Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


Just by the stats released from Duke this summer that sounds way off. However, I do realize that when many posters say this their really talking about NYC, not really biglaw jobs period.


Duke placed 40% V100, which includes a lot of great non-NYC firms (Alston, King & Spalding, etc). Middle 1/3 at Duke did not have a great shot at these firms.


This thread claims 60 percent of Duke 2L's got a SA gig--- obviously they could be wrong.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=87784&start=1425#p3204456

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:07 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
rayiner wrote:
SuichiKurama wrote:
Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


Just by the stats released from Duke this summer that sounds way off. However, I do realize that when many posters say this their really talking about NYC, not really biglaw jobs period.


Duke placed 40% V100, which includes a lot of great non-NYC firms (Alston, King & Spalding, etc). Middle 1/3 at Duke did not have a great shot at these firms.


This thread claims 60 percent of Duke 2L's got a SA gig--- obviously they could be wrong.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=87784&start=1425#p3204456

60% of 2L's getting SA's =/= 60% with biglaw jobs especially ITE

Also, if you look at the employment thread in the OCI data, if 60% did get biglaw, duke would easily be outperforming MVPB

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:10 pm

60% of 2L's getting SA's =/= 60% with biglaw jobs especially ITE


We don't know what it means. Honestly, all of this "top 1/3 at CCN safe" "top 10 percent at MVBP safe" etc. is all just speculation--- we simply don't know.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:13 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
60% of 2L's getting SA's =/= 60% with biglaw jobs especially ITE


We don't know what it means. Honestly, all of this "top 1/3 at CCN safe" "top 10 percent at MVBP safe" etc. is all just speculation--- we simply don't know.


We KNOW it doesn't mean 60% get biglaw.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:15 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
rayiner wrote:
SuichiKurama wrote:
Sure you would. Middle 1/3 at CCN = probable biglaw. Middle 1/3 at MVP = probably 50% shot at biglaw or less.

If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


Just by the stats released from Duke this summer that sounds way off. However, I do realize that when many posters say this their really talking about NYC, not really biglaw jobs period.


Duke placed 40% V100, which includes a lot of great non-NYC firms (Alston, King & Spalding, etc). Middle 1/3 at Duke did not have a great shot at these firms.


This thread claims 60 percent of Duke 2L's got a SA gig--- obviously they could be wrong.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=87784&start=1425#p3204456


I've seen the data. It's 40% V100, 15% SAs at regional firms that still pay pretty well ($100-145k) and 5% small firms that don't. I also have data from NU --- middle 1/3 was solid for Alston, King & Spalding pre-ITE, but now Alston is taking top 1/3.

Also, you gotta take a longer view. If you do well at Duke you can get some great firms, but you could get better firms at CCN. V10 becomes a more realistic option at CCN for non-LR people, and there are legit reasons besides prestige for wanting to be at those firms.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby doyleoil » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:27 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
There is no way you would know if you fell into that part of the class doyel. Honestly, if you say otherwise you're either being 1.disingenuous or 2. just trying to be condescending for no reason. That's really just as bad as when people say things like "if I were top 30 percent at Cornell that means I would have been below median at Columbia" There is simply no way of knowing something like that.


Your response illustrates my (admittedly implied) point. And while I do occasionally enjoy indulging in unexplained condescension, I'll go ahead and elaborate in this case. You assume that the only thing that would make it "worth" it to pick a school with less money over one with more money is a significantly increased chance of landing a job in some ill-defined version of "biglaw."

That is naive. And full of fail.

[And let's just say if I fell in that part of the class, no matter where I went to school, I'd be pretty pissed at having chosen law school over other options. Maybe I'd take that back if it's Yale we're talking about.]

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:38 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
Chuch wrote:if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.


The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.


Uh, as someone that's most likely in that spot, I assure you I know it quite well. Hence my gratitude for the 69 percent figure. There's a decent possibility I'd be screwed had I gone to lower T14.

Mind you, I'm all about acknowledging my past mistakes/judgment fails. If anything, I like to dwell on them. But I find little reason to dwell on MBPV money, and that's coming from someone that has the history of believing that the gap between MPBV and CCN isn't significant.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:39 pm

rayiner wrote:If I ended up median-ish at MVP after turning down CCN for only a $45k scholarship, you bet I'd have major regrets.


^This. End of story.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby miamiman » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:43 pm

I had this situation arise - more or less - and chose ccn.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:49 pm

doyleoil wrote:Your response illustrates my (admittedly implied) point. And while I do occasionally enjoy indulging in unexplained condescension, I'll go ahead and elaborate in this case. You assume that the only thing that would make it "worth" it to pick a school with less money over one with more money is a significantly increased chance of landing a job in some ill-defined version of "biglaw."

That is naive. And full of fail.

[And let's just say if I fell in that part of the class, no matter where I went to school, I'd be pretty pissed at having chosen law school over other options. Maybe I'd take that back if it's Yale we're talking about.]


I wasn't arguing for/against whatever about the bolded. I was just talking about how you wouldn't know if you would have gotten a firm job at another school versus the school you are attending (at least in the case of the kind of gap we're talking: CCN vs. MVBP. Still for the record I don't even go along with what you are saying about the chances of getting a job at NYU vs. MVBP for someone who is looking for employment outside of NYC).


rayiner wrote:I've seen the data. It's 40% V100, 15% SAs at regional firms that still pay pretty well ($100-145k) and 5% small firms that don't. I also have data from NU --- middle 1/3 was solid for Alston, King & Spalding pre-ITE, but now Alston is taking top 1/3.

Also, you gotta take a longer view. If you do well at Duke you can get some great firms, but you could get better firms at CCN. V10 becomes a more realistic option at CCN for non-LR people, and there are legit reasons besides prestige for wanting to be at those firms.



The idea of the V10 is mainly relevant for people interested in working in NYC ( with the notable exceptions of W&C and Cov DC) if that's not what you're looking for having a better shot at a V10 really doesn't mean much. And in the case of W&C their basically going to want top 10 percent + LR whether you're at NYU or Duke.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:53 pm

0Ls - and myself included in that when I was a 0L - are often naive about the differences in law firms. The down turn has taught us that even though we are poorly equipped to see the differences, not all big law firms are created equal. Your "shot" at biglaw coming out of HYS, even if the same percentage pull down high starting salaries, is still going to be fairly different at equal and non-top ranks across the schools. Top 5% or so probably write their own ticket across the T14, but the firms you have access to at top quarter - even if you are more likely than not to "get big law" - do vary across the T14.

Unfortunately there's only so much front loading of research that you can do. In the end, individual grit and introspection will mean a lot more than the school you went to once you've cracked the T14. Which is kind of corny, but I definitely believe it. There are a lot of ways to go about getting a legal career that is fulfilling and financially reasonable; attending a T14 and taking your education and career seriously is enough to land on your feet, broadly speaking, and even ITE.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:54 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Your response illustrates my (admittedly implied) point. And while I do occasionally enjoy indulging in unexplained condescension, I'll go ahead and elaborate in this case. You assume that the only thing that would make it "worth" it to pick a school with less money over one with more money is a significantly increased chance of landing a job in some ill-defined version of "biglaw."

That is naive. And full of fail.

[And let's just say if I fell in that part of the class, no matter where I went to school, I'd be pretty pissed at having chosen law school over other options. Maybe I'd take that back if it's Yale we're talking about.]


I wasn't arguing for/against whatever about the bolded. I was just talking about how you wouldn't know if you would have gotten a firm job at another school versus the school you are attending (at least in the case of the kind of gap we're talking: CCN vs. MVBP. Still for the record I don't even go along with what you are saying about the chances of getting a job at NYU vs. MVBP for someone who is looking for employment outside of NYC).


rayiner wrote:I've seen the data. It's 40% V100, 15% SAs at regional firms that still pay pretty well ($100-145k) and 5% small firms that don't. I also have data from NU --- middle 1/3 was solid for Alston, King & Spalding pre-ITE, but now Alston is taking top 1/3.

Also, you gotta take a longer view. If you do well at Duke you can get some great firms, but you could get better firms at CCN. V10 becomes a more realistic option at CCN for non-LR people, and there are legit reasons besides prestige for wanting to be at those firms.



The idea of the V10 is mainly relevant for people interested in working in NYC ( with the notable exceptions of W&C and Cov DC) if that's not what you're looking for having a better shot at a V10 really doesn't mean much. And in the case of W&C their basically going to want top 10 percent + LR whether you're at NYU or Duke.


Well lots of people want to work in NYC first of all, including lots of people at Duke. NYC is Duke's primary market (as well as Michigan's and Penn's). Second, it's not just NYC firms that are like that. Chicago (and probably Columbia) has a substantial leg-up on Michigan at places like Sidley and Jenner as well.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby doyleoil » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:55 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Your response illustrates my (admittedly implied) point. And while I do occasionally enjoy indulging in unexplained condescension, I'll go ahead and elaborate in this case. You assume that the only thing that would make it "worth" it to pick a school with less money over one with more money is a significantly increased chance of landing a job in some ill-defined version of "biglaw."

That is naive. And full of fail.

[And let's just say if I fell in that part of the class, no matter where I went to school, I'd be pretty pissed at having chosen law school over other options. Maybe I'd take that back if it's Yale we're talking about.]


I wasn't arguing for/against whatever about the bolded. I was just talking about how you wouldn't know if you would have gotten a firm job at another school versus the school you are attending (at least in the case of the kind of gap we're talking: CCN vs. MVBP. Still for the record I don't even go along with what you are saying about the chances of getting a job at NYU vs. MVBP for someone who is looking for employment outside of NYC).


rayiner wrote:I've seen the data. It's 40% V100, 15% SAs at regional firms that still pay pretty well ($100-145k) and 5% small firms that don't. I also have data from NU --- middle 1/3 was solid for Alston, King & Spalding pre-ITE, but now Alston is taking top 1/3.

Also, you gotta take a longer view. If you do well at Duke you can get some great firms, but you could get better firms at CCN. V10 becomes a more realistic option at CCN for non-LR people, and there are legit reasons besides prestige for wanting to be at those firms.



The idea of the V10 is mainly relevant for people interested in working in NYC ( with the notable exceptions of W&C and Cov DC) if that's not what you're looking for having a better shot at a V10 really doesn't mean much. And in the case of W&C their basically going to want top 10 percent + LR whether you're at NYU or Duke.


Where in god's name did my post have anything to contribute to this unproductive "nyu v. mvpb outside nyc" nonsense

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby Chuch » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:59 pm

this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby miamiman » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


Lol. Summon some of those peeps; I'm sure they're down to chat.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


To be fair, none of them have struck out yet (from this current year) since OCI hasn't happened yet.

Also worth pointing out that hiring isn't "everyone is safe down to x% then YOUR FUCKED." So median at MVPB right now still has a fighting chance, though certainly the third of the class right in the middle we see very mixed employment prospects. At Chicago that middle third will certainly see mixed results too, but the overall results suggest a higher percentage of positive outcomes in that band.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby doyleoil » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:02 pm

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


For my benefit...identify this "a lot" please?

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:05 pm

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


:roll: I'd rather be in a position where I regret not taking the money. Just think through that and you'll see why. Hth.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby SuichiKurama » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:06 pm

Where in god's name did my post have anything to contribute to this unproductive "nyu v. mvpb outside nyc" nonsense


The point was that the claim that going CCN with no cash over MVBP with 45k is a no brainer and that the latter will regret their decision is based on a lot of factors and isn't just automatically right like you're trying to make it out to be. If you want to work in Atlanta ( or DC for that matter) and you turn down 45K at UVA for sticker at NYU you're being ridiculous. If you do that and you want to work in NYC then you're being smart. If you turn down 45K at Berkeley for sticker at UChicago and you want to work in San Fran you are not being wise. Turning down Chicago for 45K at Penn when you want to work in Chicago is unwise etc. etc. It's not nearly as black and white as people are trying to make it.

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


That's the other thing too.

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Re: MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker

Postby doyleoil » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:10 pm

SuichiKurama wrote:
Where in god's name did my post have anything to contribute to this unproductive "nyu v. mvpb outside nyc" nonsense


The point was that the claim that going CCN with no cash over MVBP with 45k is a no brainer and that the latter will regret their decision is based on a lot of factors and isn't just automatically right like you're trying to make it out to be. If you want to work in Atlanta ( or DC for that matter) and you turn down 45K at UVA for sticker at NYU you're being ridiculous. If you do that and you want to work in NYC then you're being smart. If you turn down 45K at Berkeley for sticker at UChicago and you want to work in San Fran you are not being wise. Turning down Chicago for 45K at Penn when you want to work in Chicago is unwise etc. etc. It's not nearly as black and white as people are trying to make it.

Chuch wrote:this thread has a lot of people paying sticker at chi justifying their decisions. suspiciously lacking are the people who took the $ from MVP and now regret it.


That's the other thing too.


You have yet to read a single thing I've written correctly. And chuch is an idiot so I wouldn't assume his assumptions are anywhere close to correct.



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