Is paying sticker at MVPB really stupid? Forum

[Grizz]

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

Fair enough. I just wanted a chance to get an overall picture of whether or not this is generally a bad decision before delving specifically into my case.

My LSAT is 166. I retook it in June because I felt I could improve upon this but I feel like I made the same mistakes as I did the first time and won't improve my score, despite all PTs in the mid-170s
My GPA is above 3.9.
My career goal is to work for the Federal Govt but I would like to do biglaw if at all possible coming out of law school for a few years, and I dream of a Fed Cir clerkship.
I want my degree to have as national a reach as possible because my boyfriend's career may take him to California.
I am straight out of undergrad.
I did not get significant scholarships at any other schools I applied to, most likely because of the relatively low LSAT.
I value prestige highly.
I have about 40k undergrad debt.
I am generally not debt adverse (see above) but the thought of over 200k + interest makes me want to throw up.

I definitely wouldn't quintuple down on your UG debt for one of these at sticker.

[joeshmo39]

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

Fair enough. I just wanted a chance to get an overall picture of whether or not this is generally a bad decision before delving specifically into my case.

My LSAT is 166. I retook it in June because I felt I could improve upon this but I feel like I made the same mistakes as I did the first time and won't improve my score, despite all PTs in the mid-170s
My GPA is above 3.9.
My career goal is to work for the Federal Govt but I would like to do biglaw if at all possible coming out of law school for a few years, and I dream of a Fed Cir clerkship.
I want my degree to have as national a reach as possible because my boyfriend's career may take him to California.
I am straight out of undergrad.
I did not get significant scholarships at any other schools I applied to, most likely because of the relatively low LSAT.
I value prestige highly.
I have about 40k undergrad debt.
I am generally not debt adverse (see above) but the thought of over 200k + interest makes me want to throw up.

My situation is very similar to yours and I'm going MVP at sticker. I thought about the portability as I live in a secondary market now and about getting away from home for a few years, a change of scenery. I knew when I applied ED I would pay sticker but did it anyway. I think the opportunities are a lot bigger from a top-10 school and IBR makes me less afraid of the debt but still very aware of the issues it brings along. It will be very hard for you to go to Cali with an east coast degree I would think. I have the same GPA as you and my LSAT scores were the same (166-retake but still 166 basically). One thought is that if you want federal government look at schools that specialize as that may make it more worthwhile. V and G are close at least.

[09042014]

I value prestige highly.

Then definitely don't go to Berkeley.

Public schools lack prestige.

[AdamatUCF]

Hell, some of us are about to start Cornell and pay sticker. MVPB should seem more pallatable in comparison.

God help us!

[Cosmo Kramer]

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

Fair enough. I just wanted a chance to get an overall picture of whether or not this is generally a bad decision before delving specifically into my case.

My LSAT is 166. I retook it in June because I felt I could improve upon this but I feel like I made the same mistakes as I did the first time and won't improve my score, despite all PTs in the mid-170s
My GPA is above 3.9.
My career goal is to work for the Federal Govt but I would like to do biglaw if at all possible coming out of law school for a few years, and I dream of a Fed Cir clerkship.
I want my degree to have as national a reach as possible because my boyfriend's career may take him to California.
I am straight out of undergrad.
I did not get significant scholarships at any other schools I applied to, most likely because of the relatively low LSAT.
I value prestige highly.
I have about 40k undergrad debt.
I am generally not debt adverse (see above) but the thought of over 200k + interest makes me want to throw up.

That means you'll be roughly a quarter mill in debt. Maybe you should get over your prestige fetish.

[berkeleykel06]

Very tough to consider in a vacuum without knowing career goals, financial situation, other options, etc.

Fair enough. I just wanted a chance to get an overall picture of whether or not this is generally a bad decision before delving specifically into my case.

My LSAT is 166. I retook it in June because I felt I could improve upon this but I feel like I made the same mistakes as I did the first time and won't improve my score, despite all PTs in the mid-170s
My GPA is above 3.9.
My career goal is to work for the Federal Govt but I would like to do biglaw if at all possible coming out of law school for a few years, and I dream of a Fed Cir clerkship.
I want my degree to have as national a reach as possible because my boyfriend's career may take him to California.
I am straight out of undergrad.
I did not get significant scholarships at any other schools I applied to, most likely because of the relatively low LSAT.
I value prestige highly.
I have about 40k undergrad debt.
I am generally not debt adverse (see above) but the thought of over 200k + interest makes me want to throw up.

That means you'll be roughly a quarter mill in debt. Maybe you should get over your prestige fetish.

True, but due to the lack of scholarships at lower-ranked schools I would've been paying over $150k at any school I got into.

[romothesavior]

True, but due to the lack of scholarships at lower-ranked schools I would've been paying over $150k at any school I got into.

You could go to school at a T25 for free with your numbers.

And this thread is premature. You are getting your LSAT score back any minute now. Why aren't you freaking out over in the LSAT forum with all the other LSAT folks?

[berkeleykel06]

True, but due to the lack of scholarships at lower-ranked schools I would've been paying over $150k at any school I got into.

You could go to school at a T25 for free with your numbers.

And this thread is premature. You are getting your LSAT score back any minute now. Why aren't you freaking out over in the LSAT forum with all the other LSAT folks?

Tell the T25 schools that, because they surely don't think so. Like I said, the LSAT really holds me back I think. Plus I am limited geographically so I could only apply to a few.

[romothesavior]

True, but due to the lack of scholarships at lower-ranked schools I would've been paying over $150k at any school I got into.

You could go to school at a T25 for free with your numbers.

And this thread is premature. You are getting your LSAT score back any minute now. Why aren't you freaking out over in the LSAT forum with all the other LSAT folks?

Tell the T25 schools that, because they surely don't think so. Like I said, the LSAT really holds me back I think. Plus I am limited geographically so I could only apply to a few.

Well that would do it. UIUC and UMN would have likely given you good money.

[berkeleykel06]

Well, my new score is back and it is exactly as I thought--166, same as last time, so it turns out this thread is not premature at all. So, retake ( for the third time) and reapply, or sticker at MVPB?

[Grizz]

Well, my new score is back and it is exactly as I thought--166, same as last time, so it turns out this thread is not premature at all. So, retake ( for the third time) and reapply, or sticker at MVPB?

Retake and reapply, but given your $40k UG debt, I again urge you to not quintuple down for sticker at MVPB.

[kurla88]

Well, my new score is back and it is exactly as I thought--166, same as last time, so it turns out this thread is not premature at all. So, retake ( for the third time) and reapply, or sticker at MVPB?

Wait so, with a 166, you're in at MVPB. Take it and RUN.

[berkeleykel06]

Yes this is how I initially felt when I first found out I got in. But since then ITE and the thought of massive loans is making me feel like this is not the great thing I originally thought it was.

Are there any 2Ls or 3Ls of MVPB who are paying stick and can weigh in on whether or not they feel it has been worth it? Or graduates of these schools who can attest to what happens to people from these schools who finish below median?

[jnorsky]

Yes this is how I initially felt when I first found out I got in. But since then ITE and the thought of massive loans is making me feel like this is not the great thing I originally thought it was.

Are there any 2Ls or 3Ls of MVPB who are paying stick and can weigh in on whether or not they feel it has been worth it? Or graduates of these schools who can attest to what happens to people from these schools who finish below median?

yo, honestly, if you are going to one of those schools, most will be paying sticker. I know people at uva paying sticker, michigan paying sticker etc that are around median.... and no one is really worried about their chances. Some kid was joking around about having to work in a tertiary market if he didnt get NYC or DC. You are going to one of the best law schools in the country with a meh LSAT score. Be happy you got in. I got in with a good score and a shit GPA. If someone told me id be going to a top 10 law school when i was graduating college I would have thought they were trippin ballz or something. Be happy, celebrate, drink a lot and in august or september when school starts, its time to shine.

[Kurama]

Yes this is how I initially felt when I first found out I got in. But since then ITE and the thought of massive loans is making me feel like this is not the great thing I originally thought it was.

Are there any 2Ls or 3Ls of MVPB who are paying stick and can weigh in on whether or not they feel it has been worth it? Or graduates of these schools who can attest to what happens to people from these schools who finish below median?

yo, honestly, if you are going to one of those schools, most will be paying sticker. I know people at uva paying sticker, michigan paying sticker etc that are around median.... and no one is really worried about their chances. Some kid was joking around about having to work in a tertiary market if he didnt get NYC or DC. You are going to one of the best law schools in the country with a meh LSAT score. Be happy you got in. I got in with a good score and a shit GPA. If someone told me id be going to a top 10 law school when i was graduating college I would have thought they were trippin ballz or something. Be happy, celebrate, drink a lot and in august or september when school starts, its time to shine.

I think this is key as well; if you're OK with the possiblity of not working in NYC/DC/Cali etc. then I think that makes going to MVBP a safer bet ( funny enough I think the opposite when it comes to going to NYU for sticker, if you are fine with the possibility of having to work/live in NYC I think NYU sticker is not just safe, but almost a guarantee of being OK).

[09042014]

You are essentially betting 200K that on a 50/50 wager. If you lose, you work shitty hours with massive debt that you'll never pay off. If you win, you still work shitty hours to pay off your debt just before big law lays you off.

Still, MVP at sticker is better than half tuition at a regional T1. Though money at DNBCG is credited in a lot of cases. Especially since BDNC seem to have equal job placement.

[romothesavior]

You are essentially betting 200K that on a 50/50 wager. If you lose, you work shitty hours with massive debt that you'll never pay off. If you win, you still work shitty hours to pay off your debt just before big law lays you off.

Still, MVP at sticker is better than half tuition at a regional T1. Though money at DNBCG is credited in a lot of cases. Especially since BDNC seem to have equal job placement.

DF, I usually think your advice is credited, but this is so oversimplified. Say 30-40% get biglaw from MVPB post-ITE (if and when post-ITE comes). A good percentage of people at those schools don't even want biglaw. Many more will start out in small firms, and yes, they may be making 40-60k starting out. It may be a rough few years. But this constant "Oh noes I missed da big lawz!" gets a little old sometimes. Many, many, many people struggle as associates in smaller firms in small markets during their early years, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel for many of these people. It happens in other professions as well; you start at the bottom of the totem pole and try to scrap your way up. Few lawyers (if any) start out makind 40k now and are still making 40k in 10 years.

ITE sucks, even for the people at T10 schools. Anyone who has ever read a romothesavior post knows I'm extreme pessimistic and I know how bad things are. I realize that a lot of people in the bottom third at a lot of these T10 schools will be in really big trouble. But to say 50% of MVPB students are going to fucked by a life of indebtedness is just a little extreme, IMO.

[Voyager]

Yes this is how I initially felt when I first found out I got in. But since then ITE and the thought of massive loans is making me feel like this is not the great thing I originally thought it was.

Are there any 2Ls or 3Ls of MVPB who are paying stick and can weigh in on whether or not they feel it has been worth it? Or graduates of these schools who can attest to what happens to people from these schools who finish below median?

yo, honestly, if you are going to one of those schools, most will be paying sticker. I know people at uva paying sticker, michigan paying sticker etc that are around median.... and no one is really worried about their chances. Some kid was joking around about having to work in a tertiary market if he didnt get NYC or DC. You are going to one of the best law schools in the country with a meh LSAT score. Be happy you got in. I got in with a good score and a shit GPA. If someone told me id be going to a top 10 law school when i was graduating college I would have thought they were trippin ballz or something. Be happy, celebrate, drink a lot and in august or september when school starts, its time to shine.

heh. I don't think people are appreciating the extent of the current mess in the market for legal employment.

from a purely economic stand point it is now fairly idiotic to go to law school. A truly shitty idea... UNLESS you end up at the very top schools that still can almost guarantee a good paying job to pay off the MASSIVE tuition costs.

It just doesn't make any sense any more. What percent of the 2010 Michigan class got salaries to justify $200,000 of debt?

Sad and scary... but really, going to law school is just not a good idea any more. The schools have greatly jacked up their prices based on the never ending stream of loans... the situation is effectively the same as the housing bubble and it has burst.

[howcani111]

You are essentially betting 200K that on a 50/50 wager. If you lose, you work shitty hours with massive debt that you'll never pay off. If you win, you still work shitty hours to pay off your debt just before big law lays you off.

Still, MVP at sticker is better than half tuition at a regional T1. Though money at DNBCG is credited in a lot of cases. Especially since BDNC seem to have equal job placement.

REALLY?

way to scare OP

Also, those T14 schools have excellent LRAP programs to manage debt. To go to law school vs. manage debt all depends on your situation (what you majored in undergrad/opportunity costs).

[Voyager]

You are essentially betting 200K that on a 50/50 wager. If you lose, you work shitty hours with massive debt that you'll never pay off. If you win, you still work shitty hours to pay off your debt just before big law lays you off.

Still, MVP at sticker is better than half tuition at a regional T1. Though money at DNBCG is credited in a lot of cases. Especially since BDNC seem to have equal job placement.

DF, I usually think your advice is credited, but this is so oversimplified. Say 30-40% get biglaw from MVPB post-ITE (if and when post-ITE comes). A good percentage of people at those schools don't even want biglaw. Many more will start out in small firms, and yes, they may be making 40-60k starting out. It may be a rough few years. But this constant "Oh noes I missed da big lawz!" gets a little old sometimes. Many, many, many people struggle as associates in smaller firms in small markets during their early years, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel for many of these people. It happens in other professions as well; you start at the bottom of the totem pole and try to scrap your way up. Few lawyers (if any) start out makind 40k now and are still making 40k in 10 years.

ITE sucks, even for the people at T10 schools. Anyone who has ever read a romothesavior post knows I'm extreme pessimistic and I know how bad things are. I realize that a lot of people in the bottom third at a lot of these T10 schools will be in really big trouble. But to say 50% of MVPB students are going to fucked by a life of indebtedness is just a little extreme, IMO.

Wagering $200,000 of debt against only a 30% (!!!!) of a salary that justifies that debt just does not make sense.

Yes, in the past many new lawyers could start out at 40k and slowly build a career. That made sense when tuition was under $20k/year. With tuition at $40k a year it is just crazy.

It makes MUCH more sense to become an electrician for the vast majority of law students... to include the top 10 schools.

I could see making the above wager if I was 90% certain of getting a salary to justify that level of debt so that leaves YHS Columbia, and maybe Chicago and NYU?

Never mind the fact that we are generously assuming ANY job AT ALL... which in this economy seems to be a pretty fucking big assumption. I personally know several Columbia graduates with no jobs whatsoever. What the hell are they going to do?

And if Columbia has a small group in that position, how many unemployed grads are there at other schools?

Holy crap. Who would have expected this back in 2006?

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread. I hope things turn around for you current batch of law students, I really do. I feel very lucky to not be screwed right now.

[Kurama]

You are essentially betting 200K that on a 50/50 wager. If you lose, you work shitty hours with massive debt that you'll never pay off. If you win, you still work shitty hours to pay off your debt just before big law lays you off.

Still, MVP at sticker is better than half tuition at a regional T1. Though money at DNBCG is credited in a lot of cases. Especially since BDNC seem to have equal job placement.

DF, I usually think your advice is credited, but this is so oversimplified. Say 30-40% get biglaw from MVPB post-ITE (if and when post-ITE comes). A good percentage of people at those schools don't even want biglaw. Many more will start out in small firms, and yes, they may be making 40-60k starting out. It may be a rough few years. But this constant "Oh noes I missed da big lawz!" gets a little old sometimes. Many, many, many people struggle as associates in smaller firms in small markets during their early years, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel for many of these people. It happens in other professions as well; you start at the bottom of the totem pole and try to scrap your way up. Few lawyers (if any) start out makind 40k now and are still making 40k in 10 years.

ITE sucks, even for the people at T10 schools. Anyone who has ever read a romothesavior post knows I'm extreme pessimistic and I know how bad things are. I realize that a lot of people in the bottom third at a lot of these T10 schools will be in really big trouble. But to say 50% of MVPB students are going to fucked by a life of indebtedness is just a little extreme, IMO.

Wagering $200,000 of debt against only a 30% (!!!!) of a salary that justifies that debt just does not make sense.

Yes, in the past many new lawyers could start out at 40k and slowly build a career. That made sense when tuition was under $20k/year. With tuition at $40k a year it is just crazy.

It makes MUCH more sense to become an electrician for the vast majority of law students... to include the top 10 schools.

I could see making the above wager if I was 90% certain of getting a salary to justify that level of debt so that leaves YHS Columbia, and maybe Chicago and NYU?

Never mind the fact that we are generously assuming ANY job AT ALL... which in this economy seems to be a pretty fucking big assumption. I personally know several Columbia graduates with no jobs whatsoever. What the hell are they going to do?

And if Columbia has a small group in that position, how many unemployed grads are there at other schools?

Holy crap. Who would have expected this back in 2006?

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread. I hope things turn around for you current batch of law students, I really do. I feel very lucky to not be screwed right now.

My issue with a lot of this is that if you really want to be a lawyer then this is almost a moot point. Let's be real, other careers/professions, excluding medicine, offer the same if not worse prospects. So if you really want to be a lawyer and you use some wisdom going to one of the 10 best law schools in the country you are not making a "bad" decision to go for sticker.

[09042014]

\

My issue with a lot of this is that if you really want to be a lawyer then this is almost a moot point. Let's be real, other careers/professions, excluding medicine, offer the same if not worse prospects. So if you really want to be a lawyer and you use some wisdom going to one of the 10 best law schools in the country you are not making a "bad" decision to go for sticker.

But with no debt.

[Voyager]

My issue with a lot of this is that if you really want to be a lawyer then this is almost a moot point. Let's be real, other careers/professions, excluding medicine, offer the same if not worse prospects. So if you really want to be a lawyer and you use some wisdom going to one of the 10 best law schools in the country you are not making a "bad" decision to go for sticker.

I guess. Of course, no one actually KNOWS if they want to be a lawyer until they actually do it and by then it is too late.

Also, while doctors start out at $50k as residents, that is guaranteed to climb much higher after they put in a few years. The same is absolutely not true for lawyers. Also, doctors are guaranteed employment, are actually respected, and help people.

So... I respectfully disagree. Going to law school right now is a bad plan. Just is. Go check above the law for today's articles. Hell, it has gotten so bad that one California DA's office is offering a non paying job for California attorneys with no chance of every getting a paid position! Crazy!

EDIT: ALSO, electricians have little debt after training, work MUCH better hours and will actually earn more than $40k starting.

[Kurama]

\

My issue with a lot of this is that if you really want to be a lawyer then this is almost a moot point. Let's be real, other careers/professions, excluding medicine, offer the same if not worse prospects. So if you really want to be a lawyer and you use some wisdom going to one of the 10 best law schools in the country you are not making a "bad" decision to go for sticker.

But with no debt.

Maybe no educational debt; but if you are the average American working some 30K a year job you often have to take on debt in the form of credit cards, mortgage loans, etc. It's really about the same situation, except without even the possibility of landing a six figure job because you have some average undergrad degree.

[scribelaw]

My issue with a lot of this is that if you really want to be a lawyer then this is almost a moot point. Let's be real, other careers/professions, excluding medicine, offer the same if not worse prospects. So if you really want to be a lawyer and you use some wisdom going to one of the 10 best law schools in the country you are not making a "bad" decision to go for sticker.

I guess. Of course, no one actually KNOWS if they want to be a lawyer until they actually do it and by then it is too late.

Also, while doctors start out at $50k as residents, that is guaranteed to climb much higher after they put in a few years. The same is absolutely not true for lawyers. Also, doctors are guaranteed employment, are actually respected, and help people.

So... I respectfully disagree. Going to law school right now is a bad plan. Just is. Go check above the law for today's articles. Hell, it has gotten so bad that one California DA's office is offering a non paying job for California attorneys with no chance of every getting a paid position! Crazy!

EDIT: ALSO, electricians have little debt after training, work MUCH better hours and will actually earn more than $40k starting.

Why are you hanging out on a forum for law school students, Voyager?

Not saying your analysis is without merit, but if you're so certain law is a bad bet in all cases, then perhaps you would deem it wise to spend your time on other pursuits.